Why is the CAP so understaffed?
- Thread starter JFK Humphries
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Pinecone
En-Route
Again, not CAP rules.
MD requires MS to do MP. And they require one flight for each to be at a Wing SAREX. The stated reason is so you can learn how things work for a real mission.
Actually, the MO runs the mission. The MP is a monkey at the controls.
Really, they work together. Helping each other out. The MS sits in the back and looks out the window.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
...The MP is a monkey at the controls.
Within the limits of what's safe.
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
Not really, As MS during the mission, I get to tell them where to go. Then on the RTB, I'm in the back asleep.Again, not CAP rules.
MD requires MS to do MP. And they require one flight for each to be at a Wing SAREX. The stated reason is so you can learn how things work for a real mission.
Actually, the MO runs the mission. The MP is a monkey at the controls.
Really, they work together. Helping each other out. The MS sits in the back and looks out the window.
Pinecone
En-Route
Yes. I was a bit over simplifying.
MD required you to be MO before you could go for MP. It was a wing required thing. As disorganized and buerocratic as they were at the wing level, there was just no way to get this done in any reasonable time. The only thing I did learn at the few SAREXs that didn't get cancelled was that the wing is hopelessly dysfunctional.
Again, a 'stated reason' that had no basis in fact and just hindered people from progressing towards operational status.
Actually, the MO runs the mission. The MP is a monkey at the controls.
Yep, that's why it makes no sense to waste hours on training someone to be the OIC when that time should be spent on him being a better chauffeur.
And sitting in the back trying to identify some bridge or a van does nothing to make the pilot a better pilot.
Instead of wasting my time at CAP I joined the local fire department. Took a lot more training, but we actually DO search for people lost in the woods. And when they taught me to drive a million $$ fire truck, I didn't have to buy the fuel or fill out reams of forms before the wheels got to turn. I dont have a fancy rank and nobody salutes me, but in contrast to CAP, there are calls every week and here or there I can make a difference in the community.
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Pinecone
En-Route
When was this? I am currently MD Wing. And you only need MS to train for MP. And only one training flight for each rating needs to be at a Wing SAREX or other formal event, such as Pathfinders.
It is not that being an MS makes you a better pilot. But it gives you experience with the mission and how things run.
Maybe 10 years back. Still got the flight suit, lol.
Or it is a complete waste of time and turns someone off from spending any more of their time on it.
I switched to ND wing and none of this local obstructionist BS applied. We had a plane, we had a CFI, and we had money. A few months and I had my TMP and was ready to do the MP stuff. MD wing was focused on maintaining the buerocracy, ND wing was focused on having mission ready crews.
Albany Tom
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Albany Tom
I'm going to ask a question that might sound like I'm trying to be a jerk, but honestly, I'm not in this case. Has CAP actually found anyone in the last 10-20 years? I say that in part because I'm wondering if the staffing thing is in part that some pilots don't see a point to it. Serious question.
Located someone on a gravel bar a few years back. Iirc a boater.
(which is something our little fire department does a few times every year. I happen to be one of the boat operators. And guess what, if I need aviation support for a search, I don't call the CAP liasion, no dispatch picks up a standing line to MDSP and they get a helo launched in about 5min. Comes with NVG, FLIR, floodlight and a hoist).
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Things may have changed, but through 2014 or so every "real" mission I flew I had another pilot, usually a MP, in the right seat. Other than training or SAREX'es, MO's weren't in the mix very often. A lot of non-pilot newbies went through the MS-to-MO training hoop but never got a mission call-out. Ever. MD Wing seemed to be middle of the pack as far as management in CAP - the planes were OK, maintained about as well as a reputable FBO. Usually. There were two times I flew an airplane once and would never fly it again. In fairness one of them was a recent transfer from NY and a major pig. The other was (and remained for years) grossly out of rig.Again, not CAP rules.
MD requires MS to do MP. And they require one flight for each to be at a Wing SAREX. The stated reason is so you can learn how things work for a real mission.
Actually, the MO runs the mission. The MP is a monkey at the controls.
Really, they work together. Helping each other out. The MS sits in the back and looks out the window.
The online applications for missions and membership were awful - badly designed, buggy, poorly implemented, and shakily maintained. Sometimes things went fairly smooth - but there were also times I invested half a day navigating the byzantine apps, FRO's that wanted multiple phone calls, abysmal coordination, and just plain old stop, stumble, and fall bureacracy. Some guys took it in stride, no worries. Others ran away immediately. And many, like me, just wore down and slipped away.
There is a chance for significant flying time, if you stumble into the right clique and can abide the ancillary nonsense. The only way to know is to give it a shot - give it 3-4 months, and you'll know by then.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
Not exactly what you asked, but according to this, CAP saved 108 lives last year. (These statistics come from the Air Force Rescue Coordination Center.)
https://www.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/factsheet__flying_v_1B60EB65908C6.pdf
murphey
Touchdown! Greaser!
YTD 2022, 151 people saved. Yearly average is 200+. Search for Civil Air Patrol Rescues or saves.
KaiGywer
Line Up and Wait
Sounds like a terrible system and why CAP traditionally has a bad rep many places. In my wing, as a MP and MS/MO skills evaluator, I can take someone up whenever I feel like it to sign them off.
Sounds like a lot of people with “too much power”
Do you have a plane at the squadron? What is the onboarding process like? How is funded flying distributed? Do you have an instructor pilot? Local check pilot?
Those are all barriers to efficiency
Pinecone
En-Route
AGAIN, CAP of 10 years ago is not the CAP of today. I joined in Sept 2021. Buy mid Dec 2021 I was qualified as a VFR, IFR, O-ride, and TMP. That month I did TMP flights. In Feb (aircraft issues) I was doing O-rides and more TMP flights (both proficiency and actual transport flights).
My MS/MP has been held up because I have been out of the country for work for every Wing SAREX since then. But did fly a one MS mission as part of a Pathfinders event, which counts. The second official training missing has been delayed due to my work schedule, our only Squadron MP's schedule, and a detonation event in one cylinder taking our aircraft down. I hope to get it done within the next week. Then two MP flights and a check ride. No bureaucracy in the way.
I do say, moving from MD to ND to get in a better CAP Wing is a bit extreme.
But if spending 30 minutes (in my case over an adult beverage) to tick the ground training and taking two flights as a passenger turns you off from being in CAP, maybe you are not a good fit for CAP.
And, at least in my case, my training flight was right seat, and also covered MP and MO stuff. I flew more than half the flight. Yes, I did have to identify a couple of things on the ground.
Pinecone
En-Route
As I have said, I have gotten every request for proficiency flying that I submitted, approved. Due to my schedule, that has been about 1 a month. And they do, in my Wing, take into account how much proficiency you have flown, so later in the year, those with more hour flown that FY, the lower their priority over those with less. So no more 4 -5 pilots get all the time.
And when we had to have the cylinders honed, so a new breakin plus the CAP requirement for 25 hours post cylinder maintenance before flying cadets, we put that 25 hours on the plane in about 2 weeks.
We do have an advantage for relocation flights as we are located at the field of the shop used for most of the Wing maintenance. So if another squadron needs to get a plane in for 100 hour or annual, we tend to fly the pilot back to the planes home base. Or, two of us fly to the plane and bring it back along with our plane.
And when we had to have the cylinders honed, so a new breakin plus the CAP requirement for 25 hours post cylinder maintenance before flying cadets, we put that 25 hours on the plane in about 2 weeks.
We do have an advantage for relocation flights as we are located at the field of the shop used for most of the Wing maintenance. So if another squadron needs to get a plane in for 100 hour or annual, we tend to fly the pilot back to the planes home base. Or, two of us fly to the plane and bring it back along with our plane.
Albany Tom
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So cool to hear that CAP has value. I didn't expect it, in part because I know around here we have NYSP and ANG aviation to assist with searches. Now I'm wondering if there is a correlation between the groups that are good/friendly and the groups that are doing those saves. Maybe there's no correlation, but it's been my experience that teams that get along with each other are also teams that get sh*t done effectively. Not always, but usually, and again just a guess...and I'm 0/1 for guesses in this thread.
Lol. 10 years ago the folks who recruited me told me 'CAP today is nothing like what you hear about'. Well, it was. Not so much the yokels and goobers, but it was just mired in idle buerocracy.
I do say, moving from MD to ND to get in a better CAP Wing is a bit extreme.
I went back and forth for work, so I could be in either. It was easier to get stuff done working around my 12hr shifts in ND than it was during my 2 weeks off in MD.
Yeah, if that's all it is, it would be unreasonable.
The reality was: Planning meetings for the planning meeting, planning meetings, revisions to the training plan...... cancellation.
Do that a few times and you wonder whether there is something better you can do with your tuesday nights.
ElPaso Pilot
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ElPaso Pilot
I’m not knocking the contribution, but it sounds like very few of those lives are saved with the use of airplanes.
“Desmarais said the recent triple-digit saves trend reflects CAP’s innovative technology advances in cellphone forensics and radar analysis.
“Technology has really changed how we operate,” Desmarais said. “What once took days of laborious searching is now done remotely using our cellphone forensics and radar analysis.”
Civil Air Patrol has been carrying out cellphone forensics missions for the AFRCC since 2006. Its support began as software developed by a member as a last-resort tool for locating missing persons and overdue aircraft, but it has evolved into a primary resource for finding missing aircraft as well as lost and stranded motorists, hikers, snowmobilers, skiers and boaters.
“More than 90% of our saves occur with the support of the cellphone team,”
“Technology has really changed how we operate,” Desmarais said. “What once took days of laborious searching is now done remotely using our cellphone forensics and radar analysis.”
Civil Air Patrol has been carrying out cellphone forensics missions for the AFRCC since 2006. Its support began as software developed by a member as a last-resort tool for locating missing persons and overdue aircraft, but it has evolved into a primary resource for finding missing aircraft as well as lost and stranded motorists, hikers, snowmobilers, skiers and boaters.
“More than 90% of our saves occur with the support of the cellphone team,”
https://www.cap.news/cap-totals-130-lives-saved-in-fiscal-2020----5th-highest-mark-ever/
Pinecone
En-Route
Yeah, there aren't really a lot of Search and Rescue flying any more. There is more out west in the mountains.
But CAP does fly missions to do aerial photography after natural disasters. I am sure FL wing, maybe some help from AL and GA are flying a lot of missions after Ian. And other missions. And other disaster support missions. I used to work for FEMA, and in MN after the Red River flood, CAP flew several times a week to transport FEMA personnel from the Minneapolis area to East Grand Forks for work.
I also find the Cadet Orientation rides very rewarding. For most, you are giving them their first GA flight and many their first airplane flight. And helping them get started tp join the group called pilots
I just got done with one. By the end of the flight, he was holding a course and altitude heading back to the home airport. Makes my day.
As for the MS training, if it takes you more than 30 - 45 minutes to go over it, as an experienced pilot, maybe you need some ground school. The MS training is designed for some who may have had a ride or two in a light plane.
But CAP does fly missions to do aerial photography after natural disasters. I am sure FL wing, maybe some help from AL and GA are flying a lot of missions after Ian. And other missions. And other disaster support missions. I used to work for FEMA, and in MN after the Red River flood, CAP flew several times a week to transport FEMA personnel from the Minneapolis area to East Grand Forks for work.
I also find the Cadet Orientation rides very rewarding. For most, you are giving them their first GA flight and many their first airplane flight. And helping them get started tp join the group called pilots
I just got done with one. By the end of the flight, he was holding a course and altitude heading back to the home airport. Makes my day.
As for the MS training, if it takes you more than 30 - 45 minutes to go over it, as an experienced pilot, maybe you need some ground school.
The MS training is designed for some who may have had a ride or two in a light plane.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
There's definitely still loads of bureaucracy in CAP; there's no denying that.
Palmpilot
Touchdown! Greaser!
There's less search flying in the west than there used to be. I think moving-map terrain displays are causing fewer pilots to smack into those mountains.
airdale
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airdale
National drove me out of CAP a few years ago with a ridiculous airplane launch checklist. I had been working mostly as Air Ops Branch Director and pretty good at it. Several positive ratings from AF evals. The panjandrums at National, covering their A$$es came up with this incredible list of questions purporting to be a "risk evaluation" complete with numeric scoring. On a real mission, folks, I am releasing flights as I drive to mission base and I do not have time to treat known good ATPs like children. Nor do I have time to calculate meaningless scores against unvalidated criteria. So my choices were to lie about having quizzed a pilot or to delay his launch until I could do the silly dance. Up until that time I had basically been lying about it for release of air crews, but the latest BS IMO pushed the need for lying beyond my ethics limit. So I quit.
I remember one release that would put the jerks at National into shivers. "You guys are released when you decide it's safe to go." Back story: Left seat was a high-time CFII and Phd Weatherman/university professor who had taught many of the ATC guys in our region. Right seat was a high-time CFII who had been flying with the left-seater for years. They are monitoring things from an airport 60 miles away. As a 1,000 hour CP/IA do I have any value added in making them safe? Not much. Should I delay their launch (missing person situation) so I can run through National's unvalidated questionnaire with them. No.
So I'm gone. The good news is that with ADS-B CAP is rarely needed any more, so I am probably not missed. (Secret info: Those CAP "saves" are self reported and let the reporters get little ribbons for their uniforms. The real work these days is done by the police helos and the drones, both of whom have real-time imaging that is actually useful for mission management.)
KaiGywer
Line Up and Wait
We are a pretty good wing thoughI do say, moving from MD to ND to get in a better CAP Wing is a bit extreme.
That river floods pretty much every year and this spring our crews did a few photo missions along the river between GFK and FAR
Pinecone
En-Route
Not saying it isn't a good wing.
Yes. I worked for FEMA in the late 90s, and the Director was working to get houses removed from those areas that flooded every year. They paid to turn them into parks that don't have big issues if they flood a bit.
Yes. I worked for FEMA in the late 90s, and the Director was working to get houses removed from those areas that flooded every year. They paid to turn them into parks that don't have big issues if they flood a bit.