Why is the CAP so understaffed?

Pinecone said:
Why wouldn't CAP let you fly their planes?
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No direct experience, but the word on the street locally (northern NJ) was that a handful of the long-timers did the flying. New pilots coming into the squadron would typically drop out after a few years, having never gotten flight time.
 
I feel like the threads are merging by accident. So do we have to call the AOPA guy "sir" if we renew? Are they going to start giving out uniforms instead of plastic hats to spend down the surplus? (ok this has some sarcasm...)
 
Renew your membership - get a new flight suit and light up parking baton!
 
JFK Humphries said:
I am retired USAF and I remember working with the CAP back in the mid 1980’s and they, or that outfit seemed to be a coherent group that had their act together.

I recently went to one meeting as a favor for a friend and it was a shambles. The Cadets were overweight and they had beards and tattoos all over them. It would have been ridiculous but I remember when they had their act together. Actual CAP staff running around playing USAF. Even the so-called commander’s who had no college, not a day in uniform (active or reserve).

telling me to call them Sir or Mam. It’s just like you don’t even have 10 years in CAP and you are mad that you are only a CAP Major.

Think twice before you get involved with these people.
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I had experience a long time ago (about 32 years ago) and more recently, about 6 years ago and saw a similar decadence of the personnel involved and other differences. Unfortunately it seems to match the societal decadence of that age group that we see in general society. I’m sorry if this sounds blunt, but I am simply calling it like I see it.

I don’t think that all teenagers are worse, but you must admit that they do come across differently.

Not long before I retired 6 years ago my boss had me read a book entitled “Everybody Gets a Trophy.” It was about how to find, hire and employ millennials. It was a major eye opener. I highly recommend it for those who are curious about our societal changes.
 
Joined a composite squadron at one point. We didn't have an assigned aircraft which made any flying extremely tedious. With the cadets there, it required some of the military formalities. In the end, it was a high percentage of idlework and very little mission related work. Wing wide, the paid flying was gobbled up by a small in-crowd close to headquarters. If there was ever a mission, it usually came out when Lt Col Bigpoobah and Deputy General (CAP) Bootlick happened to be on a wing funded positioning flight.

Then switched to a senior squadron in a different wing for a few years. We had a plane, a glider access to a CAP owned towplane and good funding. Most active members were pilots and the work done at the squadron level was to keep the place ready to perform missions. The only problem was: There were no missions. If there was ever something lost that had to be found, air national guard would have 5 helos in the air before the multi-step CAP approval and dispatch process even got started. Everyone in the local squadron was motivated, but in the end short of a large flood and state emergency management throwing us a bone, there was usually not much to do mission wise.
 
GaryM said:
No direct experience, but the word on the street locally (northern NJ) was that a handful of the long-timers did the flying. New pilots coming into the squadron would typically drop out after a few years, having never gotten flight time.
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So you are going on hearsay?

And when was this occurring? A lot of times, stories like that are from decades ago and a friend of a friend's girlfriend's cousin's friend heard it. :D
 
weilke said:
Joined a composite squadron at one point. We didn't have an assigned aircraft which made any flying extremely tedious. With the cadets there, it required some of the military formalities. In the end, it was a high percentage of idlework and very little mission related work. Wing wide, the paid flying was gobbled up by a small in-crowd close to headquarters. If there was ever a mission, it usually came out when Lt Col Bigpoobah and Deputy General (CAP) Bootlick happened to be on a wing funded positioning flight.

Then switched to a senior squadron in a different wing for a few years. We had a plane, a glider access to a CAP owned towplane and good funding. Most active members were pilots and the work done at the squadron level was to keep the place ready to perform missions. The only problem was: There were no missions. If there was ever something lost that had to be found, air national guard would have 5 helos in the air before the multi-step CAP approval and dispatch process even got started. Everyone in the local squadron was motivated, but in the end short of a large flood and state emergency management throwing us a bone, there was usually not much to do mission wise.
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True. With 406 beacons, search and rescue is not the level it was in the past. And now a lot is being done with cell phone tracking. Out west, due to terrain, they fly more missions.

But you can still fly Cadet Orientation rides. Introduce young people to aviation to keep it going.

We hold a wing level SAREX (practice) every quarter. The pilots get 6+ hours in a day for that one.

And you get proficiency flights. I can get at least one per month. Could be instrument work or a landings or XC flying. Its all good flying, and free. :D

In MD wing, repositioning flights are normally advertised (email) to wing pilots and first to say yes, get them. And sometimes they come called because no one has stepped up. I have done maybe 6 repositioning flights, and did not do another 6 due to work.
 
IK04 said:
The only CAP pilot types I have seen since the '80s were some really old dudes flying an old jet, I think it was a Sabreliner.

They were flitting around several Western States delivering beer to their buddies and pretending they were supporting Homeland Security by cruising the Southern border and occasionally looking at a scope on the panel.
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Sounds like my kind of guys!
 
I, too, was in MD Wing. Concur there were some good squadrons there and I think the cadet program has some value, though I was never involved with it. And it didn't take m e long to get initial checkout, then MP qual'ed. The Wing was cliquish, and the aircraft basing had more to do with who was a buddy versus where made the most sense.

My squadron lost pilots because of bureaucratic inertia - one very qualified guy, CFII, ATR, MP, etc., had the paperwork in to be a check pilot for 18 months. It just sort of floated about, and our Squadron and Group commanders couldn't get a response other than "we're working on it." So they guy drifted off. Funny thing is, that later on it was very difficult to schedule a checkride because of the shortage of examiners.
 
MichiPilot said:
Worst organization: CAP or AOPA!? :)
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AOPA takes your money (membership),
  • prints a fancy, glossy mag,
  • has a few airplanes (jets?) that only a few are qualified (or allowed) to fly,
  • has a lobbying group for Congress
  • tends to be a bit self-serving but that's ok.

CAP takes your money (tax dollars & membership),
  • 99% volunteer (handful of paid employees at HQ to keep the organization running as well as a paid employee or 2 in each region or state)
  • keeps kids out of trouble by offering a large collection of activities they are interested in,
  • helps when called upon during local and national emergencies,
  • offers low-cost (sometimes free) flight training to the kids and adults,
  • provides low-cost (and usually free) training in non-flying categories of logistics, emergency services, etc. FEMA, CPR and other certifications included.
  • has many C182 and C206 and a handful of Gippsland G8s that many members are qualified to (and usually) fly,
  • has more overhead/paperwork to get in the air than I (and most other people) like but we put up with it
  • has no lobbying arm but frequently works with DC and State legislatures to provide data on emergency services & activities as well as airplane flights in local areas to view local damage
  • CAP will be in the air as soon as VMC in Florida if and when asked
  • tends to be a bit self-serving but that's ok.
 
Saw the Air Force dumped Alaska's CAP over to the Department of Veterans and Military Affairs.

Found that a bit interesting, and it seems to be a significant shift in mission. Is this the start of changes elsewhere?


The Civil Air Patrol is also referred to as the U.S. Air Force’s civilian arm, and previously operated under the Department of Public Safety.

However, two months ago the Alaska Civil Air Patrol switched administrative agencies.

“They have moved us over under the Department of Veterans and Military Affairs,” said Civil Air Patrol Col. Kevin McClure. “Which we think is going to be a good fit to the overall mission of Civil Air Patrol and we are hoping that we can work really well with them. We’ve worked hard with our troopers doing search and rescue.”
​
https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/2...-transitions-under-new-administrative-agency/
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Saw the Air Force dumped Alaska's CAP over to the Department of Veterans and Military Affairs.

Found that a bit interesting, and it seems to be a significant shift in mission. Is this the start of changes elsewhere?


The Civil Air Patrol is also referred to as the U.S. Air Force’s civilian arm, and previously operated under the Department of Public Safety.

However, two months ago the Alaska Civil Air Patrol switched administrative agencies.

“They have moved us over under the Department of Veterans and Military Affairs,” said Civil Air Patrol Col. Kevin McClure. “Which we think is going to be a good fit to the overall mission of Civil Air Patrol and we are hoping that we can work really well with them. We’ve worked hard with our troopers doing search and rescue.”
​
https://www.alaskasnewssource.com/2...-transitions-under-new-administrative-agency/
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I see Colorado did it as well. Must be a thing now. <shrug>

https://leg.colorado.gov/sites/default/files/images/olls/crs2021-title-28.pdf
 
On the saluting thing: 35 years ago, I was the senior ranking cadet at a service academy, responsible for putting 1500 cadets through basic training. I fully understood that the E-2 guarding the gate outranked me.
 
Sundancer said:
I, too, was in MD Wing. Concur there were some good squadrons there and I think the cadet program has some value, though I was never involved with it. And it didn't take m e long to get initial checkout, then MP qual'ed. The Wing was cliquish, and the aircraft basing had more to do with who was a buddy versus where made the most sense.

My squadron lost pilots because of bureaucratic inertia - one very qualified guy, CFII, ATR, MP, etc., had the paperwork in to be a check pilot for 18 months. It just sort of floated about, and our Squadron and Group commanders couldn't get a response other than "we're working on it." So they guy drifted off. Funny thing is, that later on it was very difficult to schedule a checkride because of the shortage of examiners.
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The good news is, people rotate in and out of jobs, so things will change. :)

Current policy it that all instructors must be Mission Pilot qualified. Which makes sense. But to start training to be a Mission Pilot, you have qualify as a Mission Scanner. Which is how to ride around in the back and look at the ground. And the ground training is aimed at a non-pilot. Then, the WIng made a policy that one of your training flights had be as part of a SAREX. It makes sense, to get familiar with all that goes on and how it goes, but TO ME, it doesn't make sense for a pilot to do this for the Mission Scanner qualification PLUS again for the Mission Pilot qual.

These days, they shuffle planes based on use. Use it, you keep it. Don't use it, it gets moved somewhere.

We have had to fight to keep ours, but our lack of use is due to maintenance issues. Cracked oil pan. Then cylinders had to be rehoned. Then the prop was slinging grease and oil (got a new prop), then detonated a cylinder so engine is waiting for overhaul. We fly it more than enough, when it is flyable :D
 
GaryM said:
No direct experience, but the word on the street locally (northern NJ) was that a handful of the long-timers did the flying. New pilots coming into the squadron would typically drop out after a few years, having never gotten flight time.
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As a 40-year member (Cadet, Senior Member, then sustaining for the final 10 years in NJ wing...) of the organization...you're not far off. Typically, the planes in the wing were based close to where the wing pilots were domiciled...and trying to get time in them was challenging, to say the least. And this, even volunteering as a double-I who had to take his form 5 from someone with fewer hours and a newly minted CFI and NO SAR experience, but hung out at McGuire wing hq and buddies with the wing Ops officer. I get the bureaucracy (which adheres to the peter principle from Maxwell on down)...luckily, my CO of the squadron delighted in not playing the game with sucking up to the wing, and running a composite squadron that produced more than a few academy folks, and actively encouraged following the program (the seniors were in final formation with the cadets EVERY meeting and had active duties with the younglings.)

I don't discount the original training I received in the 70s; it taught things like Leadership, patriotism, duty. Today (13 years on...)? Haven't been back to any squadron in many years, so have no current opinion.
 
Aircraft scheduling is online nowadays, which provides no mechanism for anyone to control who flies which airplane. I suppose check pilots could make it difficult to get a Form 5 if they were so inclined. In my wing, planes that don't get flown at least 200 hours per year are in danger of being transferred elsewhere, which provides an incentive to encourage usage.
 
Was just talking about this at the meeting last night. Several people who have been in CAP a long time.

Everyone of them agrees that it used to be like that. But one of the things that really changed things was making people rotate out of jobs. So not long term clique of buddies looking out of each other. They rotate out and they next group takes over.

Yes, today, scheduling is online. I can schedule any aircraft in my wing that I am qualified to fly. It does not have to be my squadron's airplane.

To request proficiency flights (paid for my USAF/CAP), it also an online form, and I have not had a problem getting one a month. For Cadet O-flights, it is normally pushing to try to find people to fly them due to their availability.

Again, CAP today is NOT the CAP of even 10 years ago. But each squadron is different, you are dealing with volunteers.
 
MichiPilot said:
Worst organization: CAP or AOPA!? :)
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For me, neither would be qualified as "bad" and therefore talking about worst is irrelevant.

They're not your bag. But do you have to denigrate them just because?
 
Want to chime in as a fairly new CAP member to a senior squadron, as of June. Was hesitant because of the military dress-up stuff at first (former Navy, six years and done with military life) but the grey slacks and CAP polo isn't bad, and you really only need to wear that for flying. The squadron has weekly trainings. The relevance is a bit of hit and miss, but often times I find them interesting. They will bring in guest speakers for example, such as retired AF instructor pilots, and I find the time valuable to me.

Also attended a drone academy with mixed senior and cadet participation last summer. Now have my FAA remote pilot cert as part of that. And it was fun. The last day they organized a simulated emergency and the cadets were formed into three flights to conduct drone surveillance reconnaissance.

Speaking of flying. Still have not sat left seat in a CAP plane, although I am a qualified mission scanner. Not sure how easy it is yet to schedule flights and such, but once I am checked out I will find out I guess. The wing wants to limit the number of flight release officers for some reason, which seems like a way to limit pilot time. I already have access to my club planes so if flying for CAP turns into something that isn't worth the hassle I won't bother with that aspect of it.

There is a lot of BS online training that is involved. For drone certification within CAP for example, there are a bunch of redundant FEMA courses to sort through.

Mentioned above YE flights. I do those also. Yes, far simpler and a much greater impact on local youth.
 
If it was just polo shirt and jeans along with conducting search and rescue missions, I would go back. But I am at a stage in life where I do not need to wear a uniform and pretend that I am in the military.
 
DougA said:
If it was just polo shirt and jeans along with conducting search and rescue missions, I would go back. But I am at a stage in life where I do not need to wear a uniform and pretend that I am in the military.
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Depends on the wing/squadron I guess. Mine is polo CAP shirt, grey pants and black shoes. I can live with that.
 
GaryM said:
No direct experience, but the word on the street locally (northern NJ) was that a handful of the long-timers did the flying. New pilots coming into the squadron would typically drop out after a few years, having never gotten flight time.
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This was my experience. There was a very high bureaucratic barrier to entry.. no clear path on how to actually be involved or ADD value. Go to a bunch of meetings and the same five people do all the talking and flying

Oh well
 
You cannot wear USAF based uniforms if you don't meet the height/weight and grooming standards. :D Can't even wear a green flight suit, but you can wear a blue one. But most fly in the polo with gray pants. There is also a non-USAF white shirt "uniform" using standard aviator shirts with epaulets (I bought off Amazon). I have worn that one once, for a Christmas party, but no "uniform" was required. You normally see higher up positions wearing them for more official things.

Yes, they limit the number of FROs in a wing. But that doesn't limit access to planes or flying. I have always been able to find an FRO. I think in MD, there is one per unit with an aircraft, but you do not need to use that one. You just tend to know them better. But I have used several different FROs.

When you do go for your checkout, there is an on-boarding flight that you are authorized. This is an up to 1.5 hour flight to get used to the plane and avionics before your checkride. I did mine, immediately followed by the Form 5 checkride. And that shortened the checkride, since I had just done the same maneuvers with the same instructor/check pilot.

Realize, your FIRST checkride, you pay for the plane and fuel. About $60 - $70 per hour, plus fuel. After that, unless you want to do some extra flying, you will get plenty.

To be rated as a VFR pilot (which allows you to fly the aircraft and eligible for Proficiency Flights), you need to be at least 17, Rated, Current Medical (Basic Med is fine) and current Flight Review. For a Transportation Mission pilot (relocating aircraft, ferrying people, and Proficiency flights) you need 50 hour XC, 100 hour PIC and some online classes you need to take. To do Cadet Orientation flights, you need 200 PIC.

My squadron has 5 CAP pilots right now. And 2 more guys are pilots, but not yet CAP pilots. Since they are Mission Scanner or Mission Observer rated, they have been getting some right seat time in CAP aircraft. They are working towards their check rides. Everyone flys. And for Transport missions, many times Wing sends out an email asking for pilots. I have flown several of these, mostly limited to my schedule.

We are doing Cadet Orientation flights over the next two weekends. Every pilot is flying at least 2 (1 hour each), and a couple are doing 4. Those that are doing only 2 is due to their availability. We also support a nearby Cadet Squadron, so fly a LOT of Orientation Rides.
 
For those not familiar with CAP abbreviations, FRO = flight release officer.
 
Palmpilot said:
For those not familiar with CAP abbreviations, FRO = flight release officer.
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And SFRO is Senior Flight Release Officer. An SFRO can give permission to fly with lower ceilings or higher winds.

There is more to do to fly CAP aircraft.

For things like proficiency flights there is a process to get approved to do one.

Then, for all flights you go online and will out a sortie planning form. Like doing a flight plan, but internal to CAP. The FRO reviews it and gives you a flight release.

You call or text them on engine start and upon landing. Then you fill out the rest of the sortie form to put in Hobbs and Tach times and such.
 
Pinecone said:
So you are going on hearsay?

And when was this occurring? A lot of times, stories like that are from decades ago and a friend of a friend's girlfriend's cousin's friend heard it. :D
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Agreed. I get more CAP flying than I have time for, and even starting in late 2019 (some pandemic thing hit us shortly after), I have logged over 300 hours in CAP planes as either pilot or instructor.
 
I didn’t get my 2nd flight for MO due to my schedule and lost trainee status, so must go thru everything all over again. No matter how fast I respond to requests for crew, someone else is always gets the ride. No matter how often I’m assured that any number of our pilots would be happy to make sure I get that flight, when it comes right down to it….

Leadership wonders why I’m not advancing to pilot status since I’ve got more than 1000 hrs…well, maybe because I’m not merely at the bottom of the list, but not even on the list. But then I own an airplane so the only reason for MP status is to fly ORides.

On the other hand, as External AE I have much more freedom to do things. Locally, AE is considered close to irrelevant except for the cadets. What they don’t recognize is AE is the most productive recruiting and marketing tool CAP has (but HQ does!) unless there’s an emergency in progress.
 
murphey said:
I didn’t get my 2nd flight for MO due to my schedule and lost trainee status, so must go thru everything all over again. No matter how fast I respond to requests for crew, someone else is always gets the ride. No matter how often I’m assured that any number of our pilots would be happy to make sure I get that flight, when it comes right down to it….
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MO isn't a prerequisite for MP, just MS. Unless your squadron is making their own rules...

murphey said:
Leadership wonders why I’m not advancing to pilot status since I’ve got more than 1000 hrs…well, maybe because I’m not merely at the bottom of the list, but not even on the list. But then I own an airplane so the only reason for MP status is to fly ORides.
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Again, MP is not a prerequisite for O-rides, just 200PIC and a CAPF70-5 with the O-ride endorsement (and the Axis test). If they claim it is, they're making their own rules.
 
And if they are making their own rules, let Region or National know.

Right now, I am scheduled for 3.5 hours on Saturday. 2x 1 hour Cadet O-rides and a 1.5 Proficiency flight.
 
MO = mission observer, i.e., right-front-seat crew member.
MS = mission scanner, i.e., rear-seat crew member.
MP = mission pilot, i.e., a qualification that is required to act as PIC on search missions, etc.
AE - aerospace education.
O-rides = orientation rides, i.e. airplane rides for cadets.
AXIS = an online learning system.
 
KaiGywer said:
MO isn't a prerequisite for MP, just MS. Unless your squadron is making their own rules...
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The first wing I was in had this as a rule.You had to be MS, MO, TMP before you could get to MP. Made zero sense and introduced lots of hurdles to getting people qualified. Also, the training had to be during a sanctioned 'SAREX'. So you couldn't just go up with a qualified MP and knock out the requirements. Those sarexes where comical. Weeks before there were multiple 'operational plans' being sent out and revised and sent out again. Restrictions were put on who could participate and directives where given how to iron your uniform. The day before the sarex there was suddenly great activity when they realized that nobody had signed up. Suddenly all the prerequisites got dropped. Most of the sarexes didn't end up happening because there was a rain cloud somewhere in the state.
I tried to progress through the process but in the end the continuous 'mother may I' just became too tedious.
 
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KaiGywer said:
MO isn't a prerequisite for MP, just MS. Unless your squadron is making their own rules...


Again, MP is not a prerequisite for O-rides, just 200PIC and a CAPF70-5 with the O-ride endorsement (and the Axis test). If they claim it is, they're making their own rules.
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Yes I know, I know…but we have lots of pilots and not enough MOs, so I was being “supportive” to the program.
 
About a year ago I was planning to check out our local wing, but then life happened. I keep hearing "each wing is different", but I have no experience is knowing good from bad. What are the red flags to watch for, and what are the questions to ask?
 
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