Why do CFI's Discourage Sport Pilot

[Jimmy cooper]

Aside from me being a working pilot.

Not having a IACO license is a killer, I'm by Canada and not being able to go up there is a big deal.

Not being able to pull a IFR when needed is also a pain

Being limited to low HP and low weight would not allow me to fly my 185

Not being able to fly at night WILL suck, just give it time


Not being able to transition B and C will become a PITA given enough flight hours.

Also the last annual for my 300HP 185 amphib was less then yours
All about owner assist and keeping on top of things.

All this is true! Some of my most memorable flying was in a 180, a Stearman I owned and a mooney. I think CFIs , if experienced, probably tend towards teaching a ppl as it offers so much more enjoyment and a lot more choices.

 

[ClimbnSink]

If your aircraft can't out fly the limits why bother with the higher rating

 

[Henning]

The school I use is selling one of their Warriors (PA28-151) for $25000. It is a little beat up with about 8500 hours on it, but flies well and has been well maintained (for an instructional use plane) Take a 2 year loan out on that plane for roughly 1100 per month. Heck, do a 5 year and pay like $500 per month. Say another 3000 a year in annuals, maintenance, tie down etc., buy fuel and then an instructor at $45 per hour. Provided the market does not crap out, I bet you can get at least $23000 on it after training if you decide to step up.

Say 1 year to get your PPL with the 5 year loan. So $6000 for the plane (remember if you can sell you will get most of this back), $2025 for CFI (at $45 per hour 45 hours), $3000 for full year plane costs (likely too high unless something really goes boom), about about $2500 in fuel. That gives you about $7500 to train to PPL with realistic numbers, assuming you sell the plane when you finish. I think these are fairly realist real world numbers, and I have flown that plane.

FTFY.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

What about the 40's 50's trained pilots? Maybe pilot certificates should expire after 40 years. Make sure old pilots are up to snuff.

What about them? They were trained in spin recovery, the ability to navigate with simply a chart, most learned in taildraggers so tri gears were a breeze for them. If you study the accident reports, most of them involve newbies, especially poorly trained ones . Also included are lots of low time , not up to snuff, instrument pilots who go beyond "their limited abilities." If an older person passes a physical and drives a car in a responsible manner he's probably safer than many of the above.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Just my opinion:

Anything that gets more people into the air is a good thing. Maybe I missed it, but how many people earned SP last year? How many earned PP last year? Any way to pull the SP->PP numbers out?
Anything that keeps medically safe pilots in the air is a good thing. SP has been a godsend to those who were tired of jumping through hoops for their 3rd class medical and were willing to trade flight restrictions for the ability to keep flying.
Anything that gets new aircraft designs to the market and/or increases the number of aircraft being sold is a good thing. There is nothing preventing a PP from flying a LSA aircraft. Be happy there are new aircraft on the market!

Its not right for you? Great, go get your PPL. Is it right for you? Great, welcome to flying! Decide that it is just not enough? Great, go get your PPL! Still not enough? Great, go add a rating or you CPL!

I am looking at this through the lens of the following: I went PPL in 1990, Instrument in the mid 1990s, CPL in the late 1990s, and my LSRM-A a couple of years ago. SEL only. I learned before GPS hit the market and have always flown steam gauges. I have flown aircraft with Garmin 430/530s, but no glass cockpit. I don't have an installed GPS, but I do use an iPad, Foreflight, and a Bad Elf Pro. I've never flown a LSA or a LSA compliant aircraft. I am the owner of a simple certified aircraft (2337 pounds max weight, 160 HP, fixed gear, and fixed prop). I've never worked on a LSA aircraft. The only aircraft I have worked on is my own as an owner/pilot or under supervision of an A&P.

 

[ClimbnSink]

What about them? They were trained in spin recovery, the ability to navigate with simply a chart, most learned in taildraggers so tri gears were a breeze for them. If you study the accident reports, most of them involve newbies, especially poorly trained ones . Also included are lots of low time , not up to snuff, instrument pilots who go beyond "their limited abilities." If an older person passes a physical and drives a car in a responsible manner he's probably safer than many of the above.

Exactly, spent their training time flying, not TV watching and knob rubbing. Learning in the 50's or earlier in a simple non electric plane was close to the modern sp syllabus.

 

[jasstech]

How much quicker, and how exactly would she enjoy her semi-license? A week, maybe two, based on those hours?

I think you missed my point. She is getting burnt out training. There is a lot of effort just trying to coordinate schedules with an instructor with bad weather and a busy schedule. With SPL she would be a pilot. She could fly for fun and go for the PPL after getting recharged. If she puts the training on hold now she has nothing to show for it and can't go flying just for fun.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Maybe I missed it, but how many people earned SP last year? How many earned PP last year? Any way to pull the SP->PP numbers out?

All such data can be found starting from this web page, wherein you can download an Excel spreadsheet containing tables of all sorts of airmen stats:

https://www.faa.gov/data_research/aviation_data_statistics/civil_airmen_statistics/

Here's a screen snapshot from the 2015 spreadsheet, table 17:

 

[Bonchie]

And this is why it takes the "average" of 60 hours to get a PPL.

And that is why using 60 hours as the "comparison" number for hours is just not right when comparing the price between SP and PP. Anyone with at least some aptitude can learn to fly to PTS in 40 hours, if they would fly often enough, at least 3-4 times a week.
I did mine in 40.0 and 16 days from zero (including doing the written) and I consider myself an average student, but I was committed and wanted to get it done. This way we never had to repeat a lesson, and with proper planning we didn't waste hours on extra flights.

I got my PPL in 43 hours. I think I could of passed a SPL checkride under 30 hours pretty easily. That's still a significant reduction in training. Regardless, despite the fact that it's possible to get your PPL in 40 hours or so, it's just not practical for many.

My opinion is let the CFIs and DPEs do their job. If a 25 hour SPL student isn't ready, then don't sign him off or fail him.

 

[Henning]

What about them? They were trained in spin recovery, the ability to navigate with simply a chart, most learned in taildraggers so tri gears were a breeze for them. If you study the accident reports, most of them involve newbies, especially poorly trained ones . Also included are lots of low time , not up to snuff, instrument pilots who go beyond "their limited abilities." If an older person passes a physical and drives a car in a responsible manner he's probably safer than many of the above.

There's also the factor that they are under FR standards for that time as well, so there is always some level of continuing education. An OX5/QB/UFO who flew B-24s in WWII was an early mentor that taught me more about flying and aircraft management than most of my PP CFIs, and a couple of them were 40+ year pilots as well. All of them were just as current on modern stuff as the young new time building CFIs with 250-1000 hours that have been flying a couple years and only knew the new standards.

The one thing I liked about the older CFIs, they weren't afraid to let you get yourself in trouble. First time I did power on stalls was the segue to my first spin training. He didn't correct me on too little right rudder, the wing tucked under and around we went. He took it to recover calmly explained what happened and what he was doing to recover, then we climbed back up and repeated it a few more times until I was comfortable, proceeded on to falling leaf stalls, then onto slow flight all the way back to the pattern with the stall horn screaming the whole time to touch down.

 

[Kiddo's Driver]

Ugh! For 2014:
17,795 PPL
427 SPL

I guess the number we won't see is the number of PPLs lapsing their medicals and exercising under the SPL rules.

I bet 90% of those 427 came from just a couple of parts of the country that have dove in head first. LA or that flight school just east of DC, for example.

 

[Henning]

Ugh! For 2014:
17,795 PPL
427 SPL

I guess the number we won't see is the number of PPLs lapsing their medicals and exercising under the SPL rules.

I bet 90% of those 427 came from just a couple of parts of the country that have dove in head first. LA or that flight school just east of DC, for example.

Kids with an ADHD/ADD diagnosis I bet make up a fair fraction.

 

[Bonchie]

There's also the factor that they are under FR standards for that time as well, so there is always some level of continuing education. An OX5/QB/UFO who flew B-24s in WWII was an early mentor that taught me more about flying and aircraft management than most of my PP CFIs, and a couple of them were 40+ year pilots as well. All of them were just as current on modern stuff as the young new time building CFIs with 250-1000 hours that have been flying a couple years and only knew the new standards.

The one thing I liked about the older CFIs, they weren't afraid to let you get yourself in trouble. First time I did power on stalls was the segue to my first spin training. He didn't correct me on too little right rudder, the wing tucked under and around we went. He took it to recover calmly explained what happened and what he was doing to recover, then we climbed back up and repeated it a few more times until I was comfortable, proceeded on to falling leaf stalls, then onto slow flight all the way back to the pattern with the stall horn screaming the whole time to touch down.

My instructor was a former test pilot (first C-17 flight) and jet instructor. He's in his late 60's now. He was the same way. Always calm and let me learn from my mistakes within safe margins. I much prefer that to some of the high-strung, nervous CFIs who won't let you learn from mistakes (within reason of course).

 

[Bonchie]

I bet 90% of those 427 came from just a couple of parts of the country that have dove in head first. LA or that flight school just east of DC, for example.

Probably.

I think it's hard to use those numbers to make a real comparison. Access to LSAs is extremely limited while every po-dunk town in America has a 172 for rent to get your PPL in. If LSAs were as plentiful to rent, I'm sure we'd see more SPLs.

 

[jimson]

All such data can be found starting from this web page, wherein you can download an Excel spreadsheet containing tables of all sorts of airmen stats:

Wow, the discouragement seems to be working LOL, but it was growing, up until economy dumpster fire time.

Anyway, as this renewed conversation matures, I apologize to Bart and anyone else I may have gotten terse with.

I still don't see how sport pilot has been a disservice or hurt GA in any way.

I hope the economy picks up, and it grows like hell or I hope for class 3 med reform, or anything else that gives us a shot in the arm.

 

[Henning]

My instructor was a former test pilot (first C-17 flight) and jet instructor. He's in his late 60's now. He was the same way. Always calm and let me learn from my mistakes within safe margins. I much prefer that to some of the high-strung, nervous CFIs who won't let you learn from mistakes (within reason of course).

Your first instructor was Charles Walls? Lol, he used to be my Father in Law.

 

[Henning]

Wow, the discouragement seems to be working LOL, but it was growing, up until economy dumpster fire time.

Anyway, as this renewed conversation matures, I apologize to Bart and anyone else I may have gotten terse with.

I still don't see how sport pilot has been a disservice or hurt GA in any way.

I hope the economy picks up, and it grows like hell or I hope for class 3 med reform, or anything else that gives us a shot in the arm.

SP/LSA is not really a disservice to GA, nor is it really a service either. It was never meant to really do anything besides get the 2 seat "fat ultralights" under some regulatory means, because they were being operated with passengers beyond what was allowed, and untrained 103 pilots were killing passengers at a rate too high for the insurance companies to tolerate. The LSA/SP rules did help that considerably, so if you consider ultralights as part of GA, yes, it's been beneficial.

 

[Kritchlow]

SP/LSA is not really a disservice to GA, nor is it really a service either. It was never meant to really do anything besides get the 2 seat "fat ultralights" under some regulatory means, because they were being operated with passengers beyond what was allowed, and untrained 103 pilots were killing passengers at a rate too high for the insurance companies to tolerate. The LSA/SP rules did help that considerably, so if you consider ultralights as part of GA, yes, it's been beneficial.

I'm not a fan of the sport grade certificate. That said, I have nothing against it either. It really doesn't affect me personally. From a general aviation standpoint I don't think it's a wise thing, but that's just my opinion.

My real question is the Recreational grade certificate. That one seems off the wall...

 

[Henning]

I'm not a fan of the sport grade certificate. That said, I have nothing against it either. It really doesn't affect me personally. From a general aviation standpoint I don't think it's a wise thing, but that's just my opinion.

My real question is the Recreational grade certificate. That one seems off the wall...

Like I said, the SP certificate was just meant to make sure the people operating the 2 seat "ultralights" had at least a modicum of training before taking passengers, that's all it was intended to do.

 

[Kritchlow]

Like I said, the SP certificate was just meant to make sure the people operating the 2 seat "ultralights" had at least a modicum of training before taking passengers, that's all it was intended to do.

Actually that does make sense... A way to give the Feds more control over things such as ultralights. Actually I'm in favor of that seeing as though they can infringe on certain airspace. I know I may get flamed for that, but heck, I get flamed for everything I say.

 

[Henning]

Actually that does make sense... A way to give the Feds more control over things such as ultralights. Actually I'm in favor of that seeing as though they can infringe on certain airspace. I know I may get flamed for that, but heck, I get flamed for everything I say.

Understand that the FAA doesn't really want control and has been as hands off about this as possible. The insurance industry demanded it. The government is there to protect one thing, money. They were losing to much and told the government what to do. At the same time, the FAA was needing to fill an ICAO licensing position to be in compliance with a treaty, so the modified the JAA rules for SP and we have what we now have.

 

[rene86mx]

Quick question somehow on the topic:

I went to a flight school last week. And they said I could begin my PPL in a Remos.
Is it doable?

 

[Henning]

Quick question somehow on the topic:

I went to a flight school last week. And they said I could begin my PPL in a Remos.
Is it doable?

Of course.

 

[Donkey!]

I've been working towards my SP or so I thought.

All of my 50ish hours have been in the Cub. Aside from a few hours farting around in a 172 which I don't care for.

All I really ever wanted to do was fly around and be a dork about it.

We travel all over hells creation but that's what Delta's for!

Anyways, after this last week I've been rethinking going for the PPL just so I have more options in the future.

I've only been concerned with learning to Fly and be a competent Aviator.

I have hundreds of landings and take offs down, spin training, wild ass maneuver training. I come in high and hot damn near every time just so I can slip it. I love forward slips. Damn good thrill.

All of this in a taildragger. Which from reading on here is fairly unique. I just figured everyone learned to fly in a J3. It's billed as a trainer.

I like to fly above the trees and land on grass. And right now I can do that all I want.

I'm ready for my SP check ride. Should I do it or go PPL is my question to you fancy flyers on here!

 

[ClimbnSink]

Take the sp ride. Everything else that you would have to do for the pp would be in the 172 doing stuff you said you don't enjoy. Besides getting your sp ticket doesn't close any doors.

 

[gprellwitz]

Well, rule of thumb
From flying a bit, given enough hours you will end up needing to fly at night. And you will end up wishing you didn't have to duck airspace.

From flying a bit, given enough hours you will end up needing to fly into known icing. And you will end up wishing you weren't limited to non-RVSM airspace.

Hence, every pilot should be required to get a license in and be certified to fly aircraft that have FIKI and fly in the flight levels. Because there is no possible way that they can make safe compromises that allow them to fly with their stated limitations.

Now isn't that an asinine argument? And I'm not picking only on your statement; it's coincident with many that I've read in this thread. Just because there are benefits to be gained by having advanced training or equipment does NOT MEAN THAT EVERY PILOT MUST HAVE THEM!

BTW, based on the spreadsheet that Jim posted (Thanks Jim!), there are twice as many sport pilots each year as there are glider pilots, which also don't require a medical. And a powered motorglider is every bit as capable as the typical LSA, and has been available longer. That seems to indicate to me that there is perceived value in the SPL.

 

[Henning]

I've been working towards my SP or so I thought.

All of my 50ish hours have been in the Cub. Aside from a few hours farting around in a 172 which I don't care for.

All I really ever wanted to do was fly around and be a dork about it.

We travel all over hells creation but that's what Delta's for!

Anyways, after this last week I've been rethinking going for the PPL just so I have more options in the future.

I've only been concerned with learning to Fly and be a competent Aviator.

I have hundreds of landings and take offs down, spin training, wild ass maneuver training. I come in high and hot damn near every time just so I can slip it. I love forward slips. Damn good thrill.

All of this in a taildragger. Which from reading on here is fairly unique. I just figured everyone learned to fly in a J3. It's billed as a trainer.

I like to fly above the trees and land on grass. And right now I can do that all I want.

I'm ready for my SP check ride. Should I do it or go PPL is my question to you fancy flyers on here!

It all depends on if you want to pay for two check rides.

 

[Donkey!]

Yeah I see what you guys mean.

2 rides and or a SP doesn't close any doors to the Private.

The other thing to consider is I've pretty much bought a Cub. Just working out our schedules...

So again, even though it has a wing tank and there is a range limit to a SP. I can only haul one fat ass'd friend around at a time as it is

But.. being able to rent a plane at some other field in another state is going to happen a whole lot easier with a private.

I think I'll do the sport check ride and still work towards the private.

I own a small business and scheduling dual can be a pain in the ass.

I'd be flying right now if it wasn't for this ****ty weather!

 

[AuntPeggy]

Wow, the discouragement seems to be working LOL, but it was growing, up until economy dumpster fire time.

Anyway, as this renewed conversation matures, I apologize to Bart and anyone else I may have gotten terse with.

I still don't see how sport pilot has been a disservice or hurt GA in any way.

I hope the economy picks up, and it grows like hell or I hope for class 3 med reform, or anything else that gives us a shot in the arm.

Hubby is a flight instructor and we both see the Sport Pilot market as the wave of the future. Even if the 3rd class medical goes away, the availability of newer affordable flight trainers has gone away except for LSA. It makes sense to learn to fly one of these modern lightweight craft that sip fuel instead of an aging Skyhawk or Warrior as we learned in. $300,000 for a new trainer vs. $70,000.

It makes perfect sense to learn in an LSA and get your Sport Pilot license from a CFI so that you can make the transition to PPL as you decide that you want to expand your privileges. Nobody has all the necessary skills to be an accomplished pilot on the day they get their first license*. That will always be true. It has always been true.

*Well, maybe Jesse or others who grew up in a plane.

 

[1600vw]

Like I said, the SP certificate was just meant to make sure the people operating the 2 seat "ultralights" had at least a modicum of training before taking passengers, that's all it was intended to do.

Yep I agree. Why they call it Sport Pilot. Its for those who fly as a Sport. But many want to use this certificate for commuting around the country as one would if they held a PP certificate. Then we have those who want to sell 100 grand airplanes for a Sport Pilot. We call them LSA's. But really they are nothing but small commuter airplane. Nothing Sport about them. Sport flying is done on nice days in good weather. Nothing more nothing less. Those that fly SP in all weather conditions and from state to state regularly are really not Sport pilots but a PP operating under SP certificate.

Like you said the SP certificate was written for those who flew two seat ultralights. Those are go nowhere style of airplanes. But now we have LSA's with glass panels ect. and pilots who fly them who want to travel from state to state. All claiming to be a pilot who flies for the Sport of it.

Define the word SPORT. What does Sport Pilot mean to you. You will see all sorts of answers and most will have nothing to do with the Sport of flying.

Those of us who burn holes in the sky on nice days are flying for the sport of flying.

What does Sport mean to you?

Tony

 

[AuntPeggy]

You are reading a lot of meaning into one word. I believe that the Sport Pilot acquires all of the privileges listed in the FARs for that license. They are not limited to the meaning of one word.

 

[Henning]

Yeah I see what you guys mean.

2 rides and or a SP doesn't close any doors to the Private.

The other thing to consider is I've pretty much bought a Cub. Just working out our schedules...

So again, even though it has a wing tank and there is a range limit to a SP. I can only haul one fat ass'd friend around at a time as it is

But.. being able to rent a plane at some other field in another state is going to happen a whole lot easier with a private.

I think I'll do the sport check ride and still work towards the private.

I own a small business and scheduling dual can be a pain in the ass.

I'd be flying right now if it wasn't for this ****ty weather!

That is a major factor for people who travel a lot and like to rent a plane and look around. The rental fleet for LSAs is quite limited, and if you travel and want to fly in other countries, the SP doesn't have conversion or use privileges, the PP does (I got quick proforma Day VFR conversion licenses in a few countries based on my FAA ticket).

With the Cub, you can still skip the medical with a PP, all the greater licenses still allow SP privileges without a medical.

 

[RalphInCA]

Quick question somehow on the topic:



I went to a flight school last week. And they said I could begin my PPL in a Remos.

Is it doable?

Yep. And you'll love the Remos.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ClimbnSink]

Tony why do you have a bug about sport pilots flying xc?

 

[Henning]

Hubby is a flight instructor and we both see the Sport Pilot market as the wave of the future. Even if the 3rd class medical goes away, the availability of newer affordable flight trainers has gone away except for LSA. It makes sense to learn to fly one of these modern lightweight craft that sip fuel instead of an aging Skyhawk or Warrior as we learned in. $300,000 for a new trainer vs. $70,000.

It makes perfect sense to learn in an LSA and get your Sport Pilot license from a CFI so that you can make the transition to PPL as you decide that you want to expand your privileges. Nobody has all the necessary skills to be an accomplished pilot on the day they get their first license*. That will always be true. It has always been true.

*Well, maybe Jesse or others who grew up in a plane.

It also makes perfect sense to learn in an LSA to get your PP. The two factors are not mutually exclusive.

 

[exncsurfer]

You are reading a lot of meaning into one word. I believe that the Sport Pilot acquires all of the privileges listed in the FARs for that license. They are not limited to the meaning of one word.

Yea, I'm not getting why the word 'sport' has anything to do with XC. You have bicyclers who enjoy riding their bikes hundreds of miles for sport vs. around a track. Nobody drives a sports car to another town?

Anyhow, enjoying this thread

 

[JimNtexas]

I don't know nuth'n about Light Sport, but there is a red and white Tecnam P2008 light sport on the tie ramp at Austin Bergstrom.

It's a really sweet looking aircraft, I thought it was a C172 class airplane until I took a close look and saw the 'light sport' placard. In no way does this Tecnam
look like a toy airplane.

If I ever see the owner I'm going to volunteer to pay for 51% of his direct operating costs in exchange for a ride in it.

 

[jimson]

Yea, I'm not getting why the word 'sport' has anything to do with XC. You have bicyclers who enjoy riding their bikes hundreds of miles for sport vs. around a track. Nobody drives a sports car to another town?

Anyhow, enjoying this thread

Well, you're going to find people that have some resentment that others "cheated" to become pilots without jumping all the hoops they did, and they act as though they are the ones who established the FAA's intentions for Light Sport.

It's funny that they decry the limitations of sport pilot but it irritates them that SP's get to fly much like PP's.

Hell, an ultralight guy with no license could fly an uncomfortable XC if he really wanted to.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Silly stuff, if you fly a non electric classic(cub, champ, etc) I don't think you could easily exceed sport pilot limitations. Two seats, no lights, no transponder, climbing <10k is the only thing I can think of that a sp couldn't do in one. And why you'd want to climb that high in most of the country in one of those escapes me.

 

[Henning]

Well, you're going to find people that have some resentment that others "cheated" to become pilots without jumping all the hoops they did, and they act as though they are the ones who established the FAA's intentions for Light Sport.

It's funny that they decry the limitations of sport pilot but it irritates them that SP's get to fly much like PP's.

Hell, an ultralight guy with no license could fly an uncomfortable XC if he really wanted to.

My buddy and I used to fly Quicksilers 200 & 400 mile trips to lakes and such. Other buddies were towing boats. Due to our slow speed, but ability to straighten out the turns, we all pretty much travelled at the same speed, so when we needed fuel, we land in a convenient field and someone would stop and bring us gas cans. It might be a PItA, but not uncomfortable in the least. The original Quicksilver with the nice swing/sling seat was actually really comfortable, and since it was weight shift, you could have both hands free and still fly by positioning yourself with your feet.

I have nothing against SPs flying XC, I have nothing against the people flying around in full sized planes with no ticket and medical. Hell, none f that matters to me. The reason I brought up the intent of the SP rules is because people are always complaining about this or that thing and why it's the way it is.