Which tailwheel to buy?

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Perf-Init

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I’m actively looking to purchase a tailwheel airplane and would appreciate some advice from owners who have experience with them.

I’m currently considering a Cessna 120/140, Citabria, Champ, Taylorcraft, or Piper Cub. I’ve also considered a Cessna 170 or 180, but those are going for more than I want to spend, so I’m looking at some of the less expensive options. My target price is up to $50,000

One of my biggest considerations is storage. Hangar space is difficult to find in the LA /OC area, and I may have to tie down the airplane for a couple of years before a hangar becomes available. Because of that, I’ve been particularly interested in a Cessna 120 or 140 with metallized wings.

I understand that metallizing adds weight and reduces useful load, but I’m wondering about the tradeoff for an airplane that will be stored outside.

For those of you in the know how significant is the difference in terms of maintenance, longevity, weather exposure, and overall ownership between a fabric and metal wing tailwheel plane?

Is a properly maintained fabric airplane perfectly reasonable for long-term outdoor storage, or would you specifically look for metallized wings in my situation?

The mission would primarily be personal flying. I’d like to use the airplane to explore the Southwest during the cooler months, both to minimize density-altitude issues and to get the best performance possible out of a relatively small airplane. I’d also potentially use it occasionally for giving endorsements, as I have my flight instructor certificates.

I’m not looking for a fast airplane or a heavy hauler. I’m more interested in something relatively simple and inexpensive to own that I can fly regularly and have some fun with.

What would you prioritize when shopping? In particular, I’d be interested in thoughts on:

1. Metallized vs. fabric wings for an airplane that will live outside
2. Cessna 120 vs. 140
3. Parts availability
4. Whether there are any particular models you would avoid for this mission
5. Anything you wish you had known before buying your first tailwheel airplane

Thanks in advance for any advice.
 
Sounds like an RV could be best, especially if you have a garage where you can store it with folded wings.
 
One big advantage of Citabrias is that they are still in production. American Champion Aircraft (ACA) provides valuable parts and technical support for legacy aircraft.

I would not keep a fabric aircraft outside long term anywhere with intense sunlight. UV will eventually take a toll. However, they would be fine in a shade hanger.
 
I have a soft spot in my heart for the 140. I soloed in one close to 50 years ago and was the last tailwheel I have flown, around 10 years ago, two different planes. Most of my tailwheel time was spent in PA-11's as an instructor, loved them also, Can you get a covered open spot?
 
Cub, you're paying extra for the name. T-Craft, probably the most bang for the buck (I loved mine), but only if you're not a big guy. Luscombe is another one to consider. An all metal bird is best if you have to keep it outside; that said, people kept fabric planes outside for years, I did with my T-Craft.

Also consider experimentals... Kitfox, Avid, Kolbs all have easy folding wings meaning you can store it in a garage or shared hangar.
 
Cessna 150 Texas Taildragger?

Personally LOVE the 120, little more convenient if it has a starter. Easy to fix, lots of parts. Really no downside. Fabric wings but metal spars, outside ain’t great, but will survive it if cared for. Luscombs also in this category.

I have a Taylorcraft for sale… just ferried it 1000 miles, nice little bird. No electric, 65 hp. Gonna be priced $20-25k, affordable. On the recommended list.

I really don’t like how the Champ flies, and I think the gear can be problematic. I’m the outliar here, they have a HUGE fan base and are pretty plentiful and affordable. I’m restoring a Chief right now, never flown one… it’ll be REALLY nice. Every nut and bolt, not worth the effort I’ve put in it, gonna be great for someone fairly soon (6 months?).

I really like the side by side if I’m giving rides.

The homebuilt biplanes are worth considering. Usually not very pricey, amazing curb appeal. Super fun to be seen in!! Do your own work, very maintainable. Outdoors basically not an option…

Only problem with RVs is gonna be your price range. They are worth it… just are.

Oddballs… Stinson 10s, even 108s. Porters (or Porterfield?). Funks. Commonwealths. Piper Clippers. Can be cheap, gonna be a labor of love to some degree, pretty safe to say you’ll be the only one wearing that dress at the ball (which is kinda cool).

Start hitting the fly ins! Especially little grass field fly ins. One will speak to you like a dog at the pound! You’ll know it when you see it!
 
I believe KSNA may have a few covered spots but I will call to confirm availability.

If a covered spot were available, a Citabria would be at the top of my list. I’ve got a few hundred hours of dual given in Citabrias. The Citabria and the 180 are the only tailwheel airplanes I’ve flown, but probably 99% of my tailwheel time is in the Citabria.

P.S. — Tools! Ooooh, the Cessna 150 taildragger. That one wasn’t even on my radar. I’ll definitely look into it. Thank you!

P.P.S. — Sorry for the late replies. Since I’m a new member, the mods have to review and approve my posts before they become visible.
 
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Look for a partner with a hangar and buy a better airplane. Giving instruction will affect your insurance and maintenance costs.
 
Perf-Init said:
Is a properly maintained fabric airplane perfectly reasonable for long-term outdoor storage, or would you specifically look for metallized wings in my situation?
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Properly covered in the first place is the better question. Of all the planes you’re considering, these are easy wings to recover if necessary.

Modern materials and finishes do pretty well, WAY better than cotton/dope of yesteryear. SOCAL is pretty reasonable weather too.
 
There were hangers available at Brackett Field (KPOC) recently, even at fairly reasonable rates - might still be. Hangers and covered tie-downs are not too hard to get at Cable (KCCB). Vintage tail draggers fly every day at Cable - they're fun to watch in action too - usually skillful owners!
 
For that money you can get a pretty decent 120/140. If possible, get the 120 as it has no flaps to carry around, saving about 20-25 pounds. You'll learn to slip either way, since the flaps on the 140s aren't terribly effective anyhow. Personally like the 120/140 as it flies very well, will do 100 mph and has spring steel landing gear. This will land you in go stead should you start one day to fly the bigger Cessna tailwheel aircraft like the 170/180/185. It also has a yoke, not a stick, which I find much easier to make subtle corrections with and carries over from most other airplanes you may have flown. Maules have yokes too FWIW.

I prefer the ground handling and landing characteristics of the spring gear, which none of the others have save the Citabria. While I like and fly Cub/Taylorcraft aircraft and their newer derivatives, never was quite as fond of the bungee gear, though on grass, which you don't have much of down there, they are nice.

Suspect a Stitts covered airplane outside for a few years in your mostly dry climate will be ok until you get a hangar. The fabric 120/140 fly just a little nice than the metalized ones, though it could be all in my head. Or get a 140A which is what they made the 150 from.

Insurance may be prohibitive for training for endorsements; most places that do that seem to have one Citabira and crank out the endorsements, which are just a license to learn, and often just for posterity. Use it or lose it early on in tailwheel experience.
 
Hi Davela,

Thanks for the PIREP regarding CCB. The only issue is the distance. It’s about 40 miles from me, which means the drive could take anywhere from 40 minutes to two hours depending on LA traffic. Having to make that drive just to fly would be a chore in itself. Driving that much just to fly, and then having to sit in traffic, would probably mean the plane ends up just sitting most of the time.

Steamflyer, the more research I do, the more it seems like the 120/140 may be the way to go. A Cessna 150 taildragger is in the running now but the price is a bit more that want I would want to spend. They seem to go for about $70k. I

As for insurance, I spoke with Avemco, and they said that if I kept it to fewer than 10 endorsements per year, the additional premium would be negligible. If I were to instruct, I wouldn’t want to do more than that anyway.

I do need to ask them some additional questions, though. It seems a little odd that they’re comfortable allowing a limited amount of dual instruction without a major increase to the premium.

However , if the agent misspoke and insurance is expensive, I just wouldn't give training.

I will give Avemco a call today to get more clarification.

Thanks to all for taking the time to reply.
 
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Solo, or bringing someone with you?
Why a tail dragger? How many hours do you have flying one?

Also remember, that your purchase cost is just the beginning. Have another $15k or more in reserve, because you will find things that need fixed, and then your first annual will find more things. And you might have to add a new transponder, etc.
 
I have a 140 with metalized wings (and O-200). I love it. After its refurbishment (new paint), it sat outside for a month with covers on them, then I got it under a shade hangar, which is a nice compromise. I wouldn’t want to leave a fabric plane outside. It is definitely a 1.5 person plane though with full fuel. I haven’t flown with a single person once I finished my dual instruction in it though, so that doesn’t bother me. It’s pretty quick for what it is. With the O-200 and 69/52 (cruise) prop, it will try to fly at VNO (or faster) all day long if I run the O-200 at the recommended cruise RPM. I’m usually running it at an economy cruise RPM to give myself some distance from VNO (110 mph).
 

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Beautiful Cessna 140. I have always been partial to the 140/170’s. If I didn’t own a Grumman Tiger, I’d probably have a C170. As my flying slows down, I may just sell the Tiger and buy a 170, just for fun. The book that captured me into flying was a book called Weekend Pilot. The main star was a Cessna 140. The sequel I don’t remember the name of but the star was a C170.
 
WDD said:
Solo, or bringing someone with you?
Why a tail dragger? How many hours do you have flying one?

Also remember, that your purchase cost is just the beginning. Have another $15k or more in reserve, because you will find things that need fixed, and then your first annual will find more things. And you might have to add a new transponder, etc.
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Solo for about 90% of the time. I have over 100 hours of tailwheel time, most of which was dual given in a Citabria.

I plan on keeping a good amount of money in reserve, which is why I’d like to keep the purchase price around $50K. I could go higher, but I’d prefer not to.
$50K can quickly become $75K, and if I’m willing to spend $75K, then suddenly I’m looking at $100K and asking what I can get for that.

That’s the purchase creep I want to avoid.

P.s. as to why a taildragger. They're just cool, and would love to own one.
 
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MountainDude said:
Sounds like an RV could be best, especially if you have a garage where you can store it with folded wings.
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there is no tail wheel RV with folding wings. the only RV with folding wings is the RV-12 and it is only a tri gear. out of your price range, but the only real answer is an AT-6 texan!
 
unsafervguy said:
but the only real answer is an AT-6 texan!
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Well, if we’re gonna take that road I’m throwing in a Ryan ST… just sayin. Seen a number of Ryan PT-22s not far out of the price range.

More topically, quite a few L birds in the price range (L-2/3/4, et al) that get you into baby warbird arena. Kinda fun.

Transparency, haven’t flown anything from T-6 down (in this thread, haven’t flown ANY warbirds with a piston engine)… just daydreams!
 
Learned to fly in a 120 with metalized wings. Easy to fly. I suspect most 120's now have electrical systems and a starter - that was the only real advantage of the 140 over the 120.
Flew it from Detroit to Alaska and back with my brother. Cramped, weight is an issue, but you can make it work.
Takeoff / climb at max weight is nothing to write home about, but with a decent runway and a little patience, no big deal.

Or, you could look into some of the not designer label homebuilts - T-18, Tailwind (but that is fabric), etc. so you don't have to pay the premium for the brand name like Vans.
 
Tools said:
Well, if we’re gonna take that road I’m throwing in a Ryan ST… just sayin. Seen a number of Ryan PT-22s not far out of the price range.

More topically, quite a few L birds in the price range (L-2/3/4, et al) that get you into baby warbird arena. Kinda fun.

Transparency, haven’t flown anything from T-6 down (in this thread, haven’t flown ANY warbirds with a piston engine)… just daydreams!
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the problem is warbirds are more addictive than crack. the T-6 is a warbird gateway drug, you fly one, the next thing you know your looking at a P-51
 
So, great point with off brand homebuilts.

Some are just plain not pretty (social standards) and a GREAT deal. Others just plain don’t fly well.

Gotta assume ALL of them have a glitch, “I’ll just fix this one tiny thing” which cascades into a red herring. So REALLY do some due diligence. 40 yrs old and 259TT is a clue!

If ya want cheap, and easy to vet… the venerable Pietenpol. Got one of those I’ll sell ya too!
 
How tall are you? Most of those older models you mentioned were not designed for pilots on the tall side (dependent on body proportions, legs vs. torso, etc.) If you can, find examples to sit in, you may eliminate several options.
 
@Tools where do you live, sounds like a tail-dragger restoration museum we need to come visit!
 
My understanding of the 150 taildragger converts is that you’d want the straight tail version. The slant tails don’t have “enough” rudder authority apparently.

And FWIW, I almost never use the flaps on the 140 when landing. I tend to land smoother without them. Probably due to my own error/technique, but still…
 
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unsafervguy said:
there is no tail wheel RV with folding wings. the only RV with folding wings is the RV-12 and it is only a tri gear. out of your price range, but the only real answer is an AT-6 texan!
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Not trying to argue (and not really related to the topic of Tailwheel planes) but the RV-12s wings are not foldable either; they are removable. The only reason to point that out is that foldable wings can usually be folded by one person, while removing the wings of the RV-12 absolutely requires 2 people. That may be something to consider if one is likely to be flying solo most of the time.
 
Jim Carpenter said:
How tall are you? Most of those older models you mentioned were not designed for pilots on the tall side (dependent on body proportions, legs vs. torso, etc.) If you can, find examples to sit in, you may eliminate several options.
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6' 2" about 195 lbs.
I sit fairly comfortably in a Citabria. A Citabria and a 180 are the only taildraggers I have flown.
 
There is a tail wheel 150 for $50k on Trade a Plane now.
 
Desmo said:
My understanding of the 150 taildragger converts is that you’d want the straight tail version. The slant tails don’t have “enough” rudder authority apparently.
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I had a slant tail 150 conversion for a couple of years, and it was a little limited in crosswinds. Reducing flaps helped a little, but unless you actively seek crosswinds (I do ;)), it's not that big a deal.

The bigger issue for me was the short main gear, so it sat pretty flat on the ground. Mine was a Bolen conversion, and my understanding is that the Texas Taildragger conversions can use 140 gear legs to improve the ground attitude.
 
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Agree the 120/140 or Luscombe seems to meet your requirement the best. at least the have metal fuselages.
Agree shade hanger would be much better.
Covers might be ok.

I flight a basic 120 pretty regularly. almost no paint, fabric wing, does have electric start. But has decent performance and good useful load.

Brian
 
I love my 140A, but if I had a do over, I would have gotten a 170A or B from the start.
 
Not much advice to give, mostly just a thumbs up on the idea, sounds like a lot of fun.

I know they bumped the weight limits up but don't know the details. Guessing that everything you've listed can be flown as light sport, but if not that's something else to consider. With basic med not as much of a big deal I suppose, but still maybe nice if you can fly sport pilot, too.
 
I fly Cubs, I owned a PA-17, but they have the same problem. With 12 gallons of fuel, you don't go far, and you don't go fast.
I flew an Aeronca Chief a few months back, 85hp and wing tanks. I loved it. I wish it was for sale. Taylorcraft is also a fine airplane, as long as you are 6' or shorter and under 235 lbs (those are my opinions based on my experience). Don't buy a first generation Citabria. The ailerons will give you all the exercise you need.
 
Shepherd said:
I flew an Aeronca Chief a few months back, 85hp and wing tanks. I loved it. I wish it was for sale.
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Sneak peek… give me six months?

Columbus MS, museum tours are FREE! KUBS. Kinda have a spare room, it’s a bed in the living room by the workbenches.
 

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Glasair Glastar.

Modern, metal folding wings, price point not too far off yours, structurally stout and not difficult to land. Experimental, so the pros and cons of that.
 
No no no, WE need to raise HIS budget. That’s how this works.

Uh, what bank do we call?
 
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