Which airplane for Multiple Engine training and time building

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

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Of the various manufacturers, models, and years, which light twin engine airplane should be considered for the purpose of
  • Training for and acquiring MEL ratings (private, instrument, commercial, instructor)
  • Economical time building toward

As you answer, please add detail about
  • purchase price range
  • operation costs (dry and or wet)
  • routine maintenance
  • Insurance
  • inspections
  • other things a "you don't know what you don't know" pilot should be knowing.
 
I'm not expert, but i'd think an apache with mogas STC along with perhaps a travel air?
 
I owned a travel air,can be operated very economically. Very comfortable and an easy flying airplane. The old apaches are probably the cheapest twin for time building around.
 
Many folks have done the multi training in a PA-44 Seminole.

But you, me, full tanks and a ham sandwich and it will be over gross.
 
Why are you time building in a multi?
 
James331 said:
Why are you time building in a multi?
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Working toward some possible commercial gigs. Some of the listings I have viewed mention multi engine time in the qualifications.
 
Talking about buying and having someone instruct you in your own aircraft? I’d say Apache is a good candidate. Friend had one just to build time and get a job.

Flight school renting stuff, I’d suppose the primary factor is how close the school is. Also need to check if they even rent it out. Got my ME in a BE76 ($285 / hr) but the owner of the flight school only has insurance on it for dual. Something to check into.
 
The problem is finding one. The cheapest will be Apache, then Seminole and Duchess. Between the three of them I'm guessing there's probably 15 for sale nationwide. And many of those are probably run out.
If you are in any kind of a hurry I think you're going to have to bite the bullet and rent whatever is available.
 
A friend of mine bought a twin comanche for the same reason. Had it for 3 years / 200 or so hours flying time. Said it was "pretty thrifty for a twin", no details... He got the flying gig he was hoping for and sold it. I think he ended up having to sell it for less than bought it for, but he got rid of it fairly quickly.
 
training: if you have a PPL SEL IA,you do not get a PPL MEL if you have any desire to have a COMM cert. you go straight to a COMM MEL IA.
second, that training will limit you to what you can buy because of the FAA rules governing DE's. they must be approved for each make and model. when I was instructing in my PA-30, there were two DE's approved to give rides in the PA-30 in north texas.
the apache makes a good trainer and time builder as it is sloooooow. there are a fair number of DE's that can give rides in them. the PA-44 is a bit faster and also has a fair number of DE's available. however, it does suffer from payload issues as previously mentioned. the pa-30 is a great time builder, fast, economical, good payload, but is a lot less forgiving as the others and suffers from the problem of finding a DE that can give rides in it. the pa-34 has better payload but higher operating costs, and the concern of doing training in a T/C aircraft. (seneca 1 aside).the aztec also is great trainer with higher fuel burn though. great payload though. in the beech line, the travelair is a great airplane, about the same facts as a PA-30, very evenly matched airplanes. little higher burns with the travelair (360 vs 320). the baron is a great airplane, but training with those engines is a concern as would be fuel burn.BE-76 is a hard airplane to find nowdays but was on par with the PA-44 as trainers go.a 310 would be a nice airplane, but also would have most of the same issues as a baron.

bob
 
Velocity173 said:
Talking about buying and having someone instruct you in your own aircraft? I’d say Apache is a good candidate. Friend had one just to build time and get a job.

Flight school renting stuff, I’d suppose the primary factor is how close the school is. Also need to check if they even rent it out. Got my ME in a BE76 ($285 / hr) but the owner of the flight school only has insurance on it for dual. Something to check into.
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I did mine in a Duchess as well. I found it to be a pretty easy plane to fly.
 
The new Tecnam P2006T. Sweet airplane.
Four seats, really good single engine performance and very economical to operate.
 
I did mine in Hammond, LA in a Grumman (ahem... Gulfstream!) GA-7 Cougar. Cost less than $2000 all in including DPE fee.
 
unsafervguy said:
training: if you have a PPL SEL IA,you do not get a PPL MEL if you have any desire to have a COMM cert. you go straight to a COMM MEL IA.
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That’s not necessary true. A lot of professional pilots (myself included) got our MELs as private pilot’s. It isn’t cheaper, by it’s great for getting a head start on multi experience.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That’s not necessary true. A lot of professional pilots (myself included) got our MELs as private pilot’s. It isn’t cheaper, by it’s great for getting a head start on multi experience.
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I guess I didn't quite say it right, if you have the time requirements for a comm there is no reason to get a private Mel just get the comm. just as I am adding a ses just going straight for a comm ses.
 
N1120A said:
Twin Comanche anyone?
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Geat airplane. Less forgiving than some though. Problem with a Twinkie is getting a dpe. Very few that are rated in the Twinkie. When I had mine I lived in the ops area and there were only two. One I wouldn't send my worst enemy to and the other has since passed.
 
unsafervguy said:
Geat airplane. Less forgiving than some though. Problem with a Twinkie is getting a dpe. Very few that are rated in the Twinkie. When I had mine I lived in the ops area and there were only two. One I wouldn't send my worst enemy to and the other has since passed.
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Wasn't aware of the examiner angle. Interesting point to consider.

But could explain why one particular school in my area that uses an Aztec sends folks to Abilene when they are ready for checkride.
 
EdFred said:
Cri Cri
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Nah, Champion Lancer
51a275a195834ca3eeb3f96d47ee8581.jpg



Seriously, unless you need to build a whole lotta time, if you could rent a block of time dry that's your best bet. Buying and then selling a twin is going to hurt.
 
Is that tandem seating? Looks both interesting and fun to fly.
 
AggieMike88 said:
Is that tandem seating? Looks both interesting and fun to fly.
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I've never seen one in person, only about 25 were built, and most were taken out of service fairly quickly. What little bit I've read about them indicates they were insanely loud, somewhat sluggish, and frightening to fly engine out.

Edit: yes, it is tandem, it's essentially a twin Champ. Fixed pitch props and down and welded gear guaranteed terrible single engine performance.
 
unsafervguy said:
Geat airplane. Less forgiving than some though. Problem with a Twinkie is getting a dpe. Very few that are rated in the Twinkie. When I had mine I lived in the ops area and there were only two. One I wouldn't send my worst enemy to and the other has since passed.
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The wording here is not quite right. DPEs are no longer required to be individually authorized for each make/model of twin they want to examine in. Now, a DPE (who is otherwise authorized to give checkrides in light twins) just has to have 5 hours in that make/model. I know some schools who have let examiners fly their twin for free for 5 hours just so they can have someone to do checkrides in it.
 
RussR said:
The wording here is not quite right. DPEs are no longer required to be individually authorized for each make/model of twin they want to examine in. Now, a DPE (who is otherwise authorized to give checkrides in light twins) just has to have 5 hours in that make/model. I know some schools who have let examiners fly their twin for free for 5 hours just so they can have someone to do checkrides in it.
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If you can find a DPE with time, might as well do 5 hours of dual with them if you are in a plane, if they don't have the hours.
 
N1120A said:
If you can find a DPE with time, might as well do 5 hours of dual with them if you are in a plane, if they don't have the hours.
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But I don’t think they can then do your checkride (if they’ve also done instruction with you)? Or at least that’s how the DPE explained it to me when he did my MEI and ATP.
 
Banjo33 said:
But I don’t think they can then do your checkride (if they’ve also done instruction with you)? Or at least that’s how the DPE explained it to me when he did my MEI and ATP.
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The DPE can't give you the 3 hours of instruction in prep for a check ride, sign you off for the check ride, and then give you the check ride. They can give you all the other training and then have another CFI do the 3 hours and sign you off for the ride.
 
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Banjo33 said:
But I don’t think they can then do your checkride (if they’ve also done instruction with you)? Or at least that’s how the DPE explained it to me when he did my MEI and ATP.
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They can't sign you off for a ride, but can give you instruction.
 
N1120A said:
If you can find a DPE with time, might as well do 5 hours of dual with them if you are in a plane, if they don't have the hours.
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I think that's the big problem right now pretty much everywhere, finding a DPE with spare time to do this.
 
EdFred said:
The DPE can't give you the 3 hours of instruction in prep for a check ride, sign you off for the check ride, and then give you the check ride. They can give you all the other training and then have another CFI do the 3 hours and sign you off for the ride.
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Makes sense as that’s basically what we did. 3 hrs with a MEI who signed me off for the rides and 2 checkride with the examiner.
 
mtuomi said:
I did mine in Hammond, LA in a Grumman (ahem... Gulfstream!) GA-7 Cougar. Cost less than $2000 all in including DPE fee.
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I got my COMM ME in a Cougar as well. Best airplane in it's class IMO. Only made a 100 of them. Sure would be nice if someone were to resurrect them. Probably never happen. Tough to find a DPE for them.
 
jkaduk said:
I got my COMM ME in a Cougar as well. Best airplane in it's class IMO. Only made a 100 of them. Sure would be nice if someone were to resurrect them. Probably never happen. Tough to find a DPE for them.
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Fly by Knight in Hammond, LA uses it for their ME training. I had a very good experience with them.
 
RussR said:
I think that's the big problem right now pretty much everywhere, finding a DPE with spare time to do this.
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Yeah, some will squeeze in an hour between checkrides, often to provide a stage check for someone with an upcoming ride.

jkaduk said:
I got my COMM ME in a Cougar as well. Best airplane in it's class IMO. Only made a 100 of them. Sure would be nice if someone were to resurrect them. Probably never happen. Tough to find a DPE for them.
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Socata almost did. They really are good planes. Closer to a Twin Comanche than a pile of junk like a Seminole or (shudder) Dutchess.
 
I did my initial multi rating on a seminole. it was quite and experience after training on a 172. Several hundred hours later i got checked out and did my commercial multi on a seneca II and it was awesome. i really enjoyed the performance and capability of the seneca at a quite reasonable price per hour. i even dreamed of buying one even after about 500 hours on an sr22t.
 
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