When is an instrument rating required?

[MAKG1]

There is no such thing as a clearance into Class G. It's not controlled airspace. You may get cleared into very close by Class E (e.g. 700 AGL over or near a Class G airport with an approach).

 

[MAKG1]

Didn't say it was uncontrolled. I did say you can fly there VFR, just like any other Class E

You didn't, but Ron did.

 

[JeffDG]

How can you even do it (legally) without a clearance? Makes it difficult to see-and-avoid, and the clearance is to make sure there aren't two aircraft in the same vicinity at the same time, isn't it?

Because ATC exercises no control of G airspace, nobody to give you a clearance. It's our Big Sky avoidance.

 

[SkyHog]

How can you even do it (legally) without a clearance? Makes it difficult to see-and-avoid, and the clearance is to make sure there aren't two aircraft in the same vicinity at the same time, isn't it?

You take off from a class g airport into the overhead clouds and land at another class g airport, without even going into class early airspace.

Since class g is "uncontrolled," you're not breaking any regs.

You crash, I guarantee you're looking at a careless and reckless charge.

 

[poadeleted20]

How can you even do it (legally) without a clearance?

You can, in the big brown areas out west, fly around in the clouds without a clearance. In fact, you can't get a clearance to fly in those areas, only to enter controlled airspace from them or exit controlled airspace to them.

Makes it difficult to see-and-avoid, and the clearance is to make sure there aren't two aircraft in the same vicinity at the same time, isn't it?

You do that at your own risk, and you are also betting you can get VMC before you get to the 91.177 minimum IFR altitude when you reach your destination (because you're not allowed to "roll your own" instrument approach procedure), but it's not illegal.

 

[jsstevens]

You take off from a class g airport into the overhead clouds and land at another class g airport, without even going into class early airspace.

Since class g is "uncontrolled," you're not breaking any regs.

You crash, I guarantee you're looking at a careless and reckless charge.

Class G is 1 mile and clear of clouds as I remember it. So I don't think you can "legally" without an IR. You can do a lot in class G which is legal but not smart.

John

 

[poadeleted20]

There is no such thing as a clearance into Class G. It's not controlled airspace. You may get cleared into very close by Class E (e.g. 700 AGL over or near a Class G airport with an approach).

When controlled airspace doesn't reach the surface, you are cleared to enter it when departing, and cleared to exit it on arrival. You are also, on arrival, cleared to execute the approach procedure, and ATC will not release anyone else for departure or clear anyone else for an approach to that airport until you cancel IFR.

 

[poadeleted20]

You take off from a class g airport into the overhead clouds and land at another class g airport, without even going into class early airspace.

Since class g is "uncontrolled," you're not breaking any regs.

As long as you can remain in Class G and comply with the minimum altitude rules in 91.119 and 91.155, that's true. However, it's pretty much impossible to do that anywhere but in the big brown areas out west. In addition, if there's directly overlying controlled airspace from which and into which aircraft may be cleared, the FAA considers it careless/reckless to operate in that shallow G-space IFR without a clearance into/out of that overlying airspace. See Administrator v. Murphy for the details.

 

[Larry in TN]

Because ATC exercises no control of G airspace, nobody to give you a clearance. It's our Big Sky avoidance.

I've run into this is several very remote areas. One interesting example is Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean.

There is a very large (>100nm+ x >100nm) block of airspace around Diego Garcia that is uncontrolled below FL245. A note on the oceanic chart recommends that pilots flying IFR in that airspace contact Diego tower for traffic advisory service. (They just relay position report information, no separation is provided). Going into Diego IFR (in a heavy 4-engine civilian jet) we wouldn't get a clearance for the approach. The tower would ask us what type of approach we were going to fly then would ask for a report on the approach inbound, etc.

 

[rbridges]

Not 13 nm off the coast!

do you need an instrument rating to come back through class A airspace when descending from FL600?

 

[JeffDG]

do you need an instrument rating to come back through class A airspace when descending from FL600?

Who says you can't go offshore for the descent too?

 

[JeffDG]

IMC in G for cruise is basically impossible outside of the G->14,500 (or similar) out west.

You have several competing rules:
1) Maintain at least 1,000' above the highest terrain or obstacle within 4 nm either side of your flight path
2) Not exceed 1,200' AGL where you are right this second (overlying E space outside of areas above)
3) Hemispheric rule for altitudes (and those are MSL, not AGL)...the exception for <3,000' AGL is a VFR rule and does not exist in the Class G IMC rules.

If you can thread those 3 needles, you can, technically, fly IMC in G (with an IR and current, etc.) in the 1,200' E, but if you can do that without busting one of those three, I'll tip my cap to you.

 

[flyingron]

I only know of three:

• SS-SR for external lighting.
• Evening civil twilight to morning civil twilight for night time.
• One hour after SS to one hour before SR for night landings.

What did I miss?

30 minutes after sunset/before sunrise for ultralights that has a strobe.

 

[Timmer]

I always thought the night time definitions was a good example of people over-complicating things, especially when the FARs don't need our help. There is one definition of 'night' given in the FARs.

There just happens to be regulations that don't use 'night' but other times around then.

 

[dmspilot]

Fortunately, the erroneous definition of night has been finally corrected after my petition to the FAA.

Can you expand on that?

 

[flyingron]

Can you expand on that?

FAR 1.1 defined night with reference to a publication that hadn't existed in decades. I submitted a petition for rule making to correct that and the FAA published the change as a typographical correction without even going through an NPRM.

Of course, I didn't fare so well (especially dealing the pig headed John Lynch) with regard to the improper changing of the second in command regulation. However, I gave that up when subsequently the chief counsel gave a bizarre interpretation that safety pilots aren't second in command crew members and not subject to the regulation (which is bizarre since the regulation specifically mentions SIC safety pilots), so i let it go.