When is an instrument rating required?

stratobee

stratobee

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stratobee
I'll presume that question will pop up on the oral. And I do know parts of the the answer (when special VFR at night, below VFR minimums, more than 50nm away from airport with commercial license carrying passengers etc). But what I can't find in the FAR/AIM is where this is defined?

Part 61.65 only pertains to what is required for getting an IR rating, not when one is required. Part 91, which seems like a better fit as it deals with Operations, doesn't seem to have anything that fits either.

Does anyone know where the definition of this can be found?
 
You missed the key one...anytime flying under Instrument Flight Rules.
 
From a practical stanpoint.
1. above 18000 feet
2. IMC (IFR) conditions.
3. Anytime you get within cloud minimums as stated for each type of airspace.
4. If doing a cross country and at any point during your trip the above may occure.
 
drotto said:
From a practical stanpoint.
1. above 18000 feet
2. IMC (IFR) conditions.
3. Anytime you get within cloud minimums as stated for each type of airspace.
4. If doing a cross country and at any point during your trip the above may occure.
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5. When accepting an IFR clearance.

That's what JeffDG was getting at.

You do not need to be in IMC to accept a clearance.

Above 18000 feet only applies over the Lower 48 states and within 12 miles of coastline, plus a few other areas listed in 14 CFR 71. I think you meant to say "in Class A." And you can be granted an exception. You can fly at 25,000 feet legally VFR over Hawaii and western Alaska (west of longitude W160), as it's Class E all the way to the moon. Class A starts a hair under 22,000 over Denali.
 
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But is it defined somewhere, or is this something I need to extrapolate from the other regulations and/or by process of elimination?
 
Start with 14 CFR 61.3(e):
(e) Instrument rating. No person may act as pilot in command of a civil aircraft under IFR or in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR flight unless that person holds:
(1) The appropriate aircraft category, class, type (if required), and instrument rating on that person's pilot certificate for any airplane, helicopter, or powered-lift being flown;
(2) An airline transport pilot certificate with the appropriate aircraft category, class, and type rating (if required) for the aircraft being flown;
(3) For a glider, a pilot certificate with a glider category rating and an airplane instrument rating; or
(4) For an airship, a commercial pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air category rating and airship class rating.
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The "minimums prescribed for VFR flight" are found in 14 CFR 91.155. "Under IFR" is, I think, self-explanatory.

BTW, you'll note that sometimes one can be legally flying IFR without an instrument rating on one's pilot certificate -- ATP's are one, and airships are another. Good bar bet material, that.
 
Ron Levy said:
Start with 14 CFR 61.3(e):
The "minimums prescribed for VFR flight" are found in 14 CFR 91.155. "Under IFR" is, I think, self-explanatory.

BTW, you'll note that sometimes one can be legally flying IFR without an instrument rating on one's pilot certificate -- ATP's are one, and airships are another. Good bar bet material, that.
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Looks like it's time to make some money.
 
MAKG1 said:
5. When accepting an IFR clearance.

That's what JeffDG was getting at.

You do not need to be in IMC to accept a clearance.

Above 18000 feet only applies over the Lower 48 states and within 12 miles of coastline, plus a few other areas listed in 14 CFR 71. I think you meant to say "in Class A." And you can be granted an exception. You can fly at 25,000 feet legally VFR over Hawaii and western Alaska (west of longitude W160), as it's Class E all the way to the moon. Class A starts a hair under 22,000 over Denali.
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And to be precise, if you can get above 60,000, you're good VFR too.
 
drotto said:
From a practical stanpoint.
1. above 18000 feet
2. IMC (IFR) conditions.
3. Anytime you get within cloud minimums as stated for each type of airspace.
4. If doing a cross country and at any point during your trip the above may occure.
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I think that overcomplicates it. There are two conditions, and Ron quoted the regulation:

1. under IFR (meaning on an IFR flight plan/clearance)
2. in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR (cloud distance and visibility)
 
dmspilot said:
I think that overcomplicates it. There are two conditions, and Ron quoted the regulation:

1. under IFR (meaning on an IFR flight plan/clearance)
2. in weather conditions less than the minimums prescribed for VFR (cloud distance and visibility)
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With an exception to #2 being SVFR day
 
stratobee said:
I'll presume that question will pop up on the oral. And I do know parts of the the answer (when special VFR at night, below VFR minimums, more than 50nm away from airport with commercial license carrying passengers etc). But what I can't find in the FAR/AIM is where this is defined?

Part 61.65 only pertains to what is required for getting an IR rating, not when one is required. Part 91, which seems like a better fit as it deals with Operations, doesn't seem to have anything that fits either.

Does anyone know where the definition of this can be found?
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I'm not aware of that reg. that's how DayJet operated IIRC.
 
Never.

I've flown VFR in all 50 states. Just stay VFR and you are good to go. IMHO IFR is way over rated, and expensive.

JMHO. :dunno:
 
Geico266 said:
Never.

I've flown VFR in all 50 states. Just stay VFR and you are good to go. IMHO IFR is way over rated, and expensive.

JMHO. :dunno:
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Chainsaws are highly over rated. Just give me an axe. :rolleyes:
 
MAKG1 said:
He's right. 14 CFR 61.133(b)(1).
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Ah, it's a limitation if you don't have an IR. I was thinking he was saying you had to file if going over 50 nm. I'm almost positive DayJets ran VFR only so obviously it can be done.

At the airline we were required to pick up IFR within 50 miles but I think that's a jet thing (maybe a 12,500 thing). My old OpSpec allowed VFR as long as we filed or had company flight following as well as ATC flight following.

But yes, I see what you mean now...
 
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The reason I'm asking is I happened to look at a clip where DPE Andy Munnis talks about common mistakes he sees on the IFR oral/checkride. At 20:12 in to the clip he asks my initial question: "When is an IFR rating required?".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EUzR8f1Npss

He subsequently lists 4 different items:

1. Under IFR.
2. W/X minimas less than VFR in Ctrl'ed airspace.
3. Class A.
4. Spec VFR at night.

But to me it seems that he's alluding to a regulation covering these specifically, rather than extrapolating from the applicants general knowledge base. If there is no specifics on this point, then in my view there are a ton of different answers I could give that would also be correct. One of them being the commercial pilot 50nm requirement, or taking commercial passengers at night. Or how about to "accept an IFR clearance", "closer than 2000ft to a cloud in class E", etc, etc.

I'm just trying to understand if there is a specific list that I've missed he's after, rather than a general probe. Because I know I'm going to get that question. That's probably the first thing my DPE will ask.

Btw, the clip is excellent and well worth watching in its entirety for those about to do the IR ride. A lot of good info there and Andy is very good at explaining in a simple and understandable way.
 
Geico266 said:
Never.

I've flown VFR in all 50 states. Just stay VFR and you are good to go. IMHO IFR is way over rated, and expensive.

JMHO. :dunno:
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I long for the day I have the luxury to fly only when the sky is blue, the air is smooth and I have tailwinds. Until that day, IFR is a tool I use to get where I need to go when I need to get there. Cannot say I enjoy it. Cannot say I go out in IMC just for the fun of it.
Have to agree it does add to the cost of flying though. I likely would not have a Jepp GPS subscription, XM WX, or static IFR cert on aircraft if not for the occasional IFR use.
 
stratobee said:
2. W/X minimas less than VFR in Ctrl'ed airspace.
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There's no "controlled airspace." You can't fly in less than VFR minimums without an instrument rating in uncontrolled airspace either.

stratobee said:
3. Class A.
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In Class A, all flights must operate under IFR. You need an instrument rating to operating under IFR. Expecting an applicant to regurgitate it as a separate bullet point would be splitting hairs.

stratobee said:
4. Spec VFR at night.
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It's not night. It's sunset to sunrise. Not the same thing.
 
stratobee said:
One of them being the commercial pilot 50nm requirement, or taking commercial passengers at night.
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I wouldn't expect a question on this except on a commercial pilot checkride in which the applicant does not have an instrument rating. This is actually a limitation that would be printed on the pilot certificate.
 
JeffDG said:
And to be precise, if you can get above 60,000, you're good VFR too.
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The problem is getting up to FL600 (top of controlled airspace) without instrument privileges because you need to be IFR starting at 18,000 MSL up to FL600.
 
Captain said:
I'm not aware of that reg. that's how DayJet operated IIRC.
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I don't think DayJet had pilots without instrument privileges, and those privileges are still required for carriage of passengers for hire/compensation beyond 50nm even if you're operating VFR.
 
dmspilot said:
Good point, so there is a third condition I neglected - SVFR sunset to sunrise.
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That's covered in the reg I quoted. I'll stick with my two conditions -- IFR, and operating in weather less than VFR as prescribed by 91.155 (which includes the SVFR exception in 91.155(a)).
 
Ron Levy said:
The problem is getting up to FL600 (top of controlled airspace) without instrument privileges because you need to be IFR starting at 18,000 MSL up to FL600.
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Not 13 nm off the coast!
 
stratobee said:
He subsequently lists 4 different items:

1. Under IFR.
2. W/X minimas less than VFR in Ctrl'ed airspace.
3. Class A.
4. Spec VFR at night.
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Class A is covered by the IFR requirement, since you must be IFR in Class A. Likewise, SVFR is covered in 91.155(a). And finally, you still need instrument privileges in sub-VFR (as defined in 91.155) in uncontrolled as well as controlled airspace.

Again, for the sake of simplicity, I'll stick with my two.
 
And you can get into Class A VFR too...gliders doing mountain wave flying do it on waivers.

Normal? No. Impossible? Also No.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't think DayJet had pilots without instrument privileges, and those privileges are still required for carriage of passengers for hire/compensation beyond 50nm even if you're operating VFR.
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Yup, I missed the point in the OP.
 
dmspilot said:
There's no "controlled airspace." You can't fly in less than VFR minimums without an instrument rating in uncontrolled airspace either.


In Class A, all flights must operate under IFR. You need an instrument rating to operating under IFR. Expecting an applicant to regurgitate it as a separate bullet point would be splitting hairs.


It's not night. It's sunset to sunrise. Not the same thing.
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Iirc, one can fly in less than vfr in class g without being ifr...
 
SkyHog said:
Iirc, one can fly in less than vfr in class g without being ifr...
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You can do it without an IFR clearance. You still need an instrument rating.
 
dmspilot said:
It's not night. It's sunset to sunrise. Not the same thing.
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NIGHT is defined in at least four ways. Fortunately, the erroneous definition of night has been finally corrected after my petition to the FAA.
 
flyingron said:
NIGHT is defined in at least four ways.
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I only know of three:

  • SS-SR for external lighting.
  • Evening civil twilight to morning civil twilight for night time.
  • One hour after SS to one hour before SR for night landings.
What did I miss?
 
dmspilot said:
You can do it without an IFR clearance. You still need an instrument rating.
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How can you even do it (legally) without a clearance? Makes it difficult to see-and-avoid, and the clearance is to make sure there aren't two aircraft in the same vicinity at the same time, isn't it?
 
MAKG1 said:
And FL600 is the top of Class A. Above that, it's Class E, still controlled airspace.
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Didn't say it was uncontrolled. I did say you can fly there VFR, just like any other Class E
 
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