Whats your interpretation

Crane Pilot

Crane Pilot

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crane pilot
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Here is a scenario for you. Lets say i am flying with some friends , i am the pic and only a VFR rated pilot in the left seat , my friend is a instrument rated pilot in the right seat. At some point in the flight i run into IMC conditions and my friend gets a pop up clearance. To make it clear he is not an instructor , can i still fly as pic and log it as actual instrument time with him as a safety pilot? The one rule that comes to mind is "a pilot may deviate from the FAR's if the situation or emergency arises, but i know that has many interpretations in the eyes of the FAA. and probably has nothing to do with logging time.
 
We need to make EdFred's PIC chart a permanent sticky item.
 
Without an instrument rating he became PIC the minute you entered IMC conditions. Without an instructors rating it cannot be logged as actual instrument time because he would have to sign it off with his instructor certificate number.
 
Oh boy here we go.....again! :rolleyes:
 
AggieMike88 said:
I enjoy the fact you have an avatar that fits the mood/topic of just about any conversation here :D
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Yeah that one is definitely appropriate for this thread isn't it? :rofl:
Didn't even think of that. Y'all gonna upset UCLA?
 
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Crane Pilot said:
Here is a scenario for you. Lets say i am flying with some friends , i am the pic and only a VFR rated pilot in the left seat , my friend is a instrument rated pilot in the right seat. At some point in the flight i run into IMC conditions and my friend gets a pop up clearance. To make it clear he is not an instructor , can i still fly as pic and log it as actual instrument time with him as a safety pilot? The one rule that comes to mind is "a pilot may deviate from the FAR's if the situation or emergency arises, but i know that has many interpretations in the eyes of the FAA. and probably has nothing to do with logging time.
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Dude, the safety pilot's job is to look out the windows in VFR conditions while you're simulating IMC with a hood, foggles, etc. there ain't no such thing as a safety pilot in actual IMC.

So, hypothetically you can forget this hypothetical situation . . . Unless it actually happened, I which case don't talk about it and for God's sake don't try to log it! Hypothetically, of course.
 
Grum.Man said:
Without an instrument rating he became PIC the minute you entered IMC conditions. Without an instructors rating it cannot be logged as actual instrument time because he would have to sign it off with his instructor certificate number.
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Huh?

The first part was sort of right. The second is wrong.

Right seat is the acting PIC, starting when you accept a clearance, even in VMC. In IMC (or even closer to clouds than VFR cloud clearance -- that's still IMC even if you aren't in the clouds), there is no safety pilot. If the left seat is handling the controls, he logs PIC. Otherwise the right seat does. It is still actual IMC, and that operation does not require two crewmembers, so only one gets to log PIC.

You can log the right seat as a "safety pilot" even though he isn't, just to get his name in the log to make it clear you didn't bust regs. If you break out of the clouds into VMC, a safety pilot is necessary if and only if you wear a view limiting device.

So yes, you can log actual instrument conditions without a CFII in the plane, provided someone in the aircraft has an instrument rating and is eligible to act as PIC. There is no need to resort to 14 CFR 91.3(b). Nor would anyone believe it if you didn't declare an emergency.

Now, if your friend isn't current, then you have a problem.
 
I was 99.9% sure of the answer as i have read the FAR's several times and was just curious to what ideas i would get from this question. It may seem like a stupid question but im sure someone somewhere has thought about this or even done this. As i have myself talked to a pilot who thought he could go out and do instrument approaches in VFR weather with out a view limiting device of some sort and by himself( no safety pilot or instructor). to maintain currency and log it as such.:eek::confused: and he was 14 hrs shy of his ATP:rolleyes: now that's scary.
 
MAKG1 said:
Huh?

The first part was sort of right. The second is wrong.

Right seat is the acting PIC, starting when you accept a clearance, even in VMC. In IMC (or even closer to clouds than VFR cloud clearance -- that's still IMC even if you aren't in the clouds), there is no safety pilot. If the left seat is handling the controls, he logs PIC. Otherwise the right seat does. It is still actual IMC, and that operation does not require two crewmembers, so only one gets to log PIC.

You can log the right seat as a "safety pilot" even though he isn't, just to get his name in the log to make it clear you didn't bust regs. If you break out of the clouds into VMC, a safety pilot is necessary if and only if you wear a view limiting device.

So yes, you can log actual instrument conditions without a CFII in the plane, provided someone in the aircraft has an instrument rating and is eligible to act as PIC. There is no need to resort to 14 CFR 91.3(b). Nor would anyone believe it if you didn't declare an emergency.

Now, if your friend isn't current, then you have a problem.
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Yep, I believe this is correct on all counts, except logging the safety pilot in IMC is technically incorrect as you stated, and unnecessary legally to "make it clear you didn't bust regs". It's perfectly legal for a VFR-only pilot to fly in actual conditions (solo for that matter) as long as they're legally VFR, so time logged as actual is not a red flag for a VFR-only pilot. If he's concerned that an inspector or examiner might ask probing questions, then he should add a remark saying that so-and-so was legal PIC for the flight (not safety pilot) under IFR.
 
MAKG1 said:
Huh?

The first part was sort of right. The second is wrong.

Right seat is the acting PIC, starting when you accept a clearance, even in VMC. In IMC (or even closer to clouds than VFR cloud clearance -- that's still IMC even if you aren't in the clouds), there is no safety pilot. If the left seat is handling the controls, he logs PIC. Otherwise the right seat does. It is still actual IMC, and that operation does not require two crewmembers, so only one gets to log PIC.

You can log the right seat as a "safety pilot" even though he isn't, just to get his name in the log to make it clear you didn't bust regs. If you break out of the clouds into VMC, a safety pilot is necessary if and only if you wear a view limiting device.

So yes, you can log actual instrument conditions without a CFII in the plane, provided someone in the aircraft has an instrument rating and is eligible to act as PIC. There is no need to resort to 14 CFR 91.3(b). Nor would anyone believe it if you didn't declare an emergency.

Now, if your friend isn't current, then you have a problem.
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Maybe my last statement should have been clearer. The VFR rated pilot can not log PIC Ifr time.
 
mscard88 said:
Yeah that one is definitely appropriate for this thread isn't it? :rofl:
Didn't even think of that. Y'all gonna upset UCLA?
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Haven't really followed this year's team yet. Bit I hope we make a good show of it.
 
Grum.Man said:
Maybe my last statement should have been clearer. The VFR rated pilot can not log PIC Ifr time.
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Are you sure? What about flying on a moonless night over dark countryside where you have no reference except your instruments.

I did this a few times when I flew from Harrison, AR to Hot Springs, AR for dinner as a VFR pilot. There's absolutely nothing between those two towns. Dead dark.

I didn't log it as actual instrument time because I didn't know the regs then, but later my instrument instructor told me that I could and should have.
 
Grum.Man said:
Maybe my last statement should have been clearer. The VFR rated pilot can not log PIC Ifr time.
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wrong.....

as to what is legal to log 61.51 spells it out:
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

an instrument rating is not required, only that the pilot be rated in the aircraft. now, as stated, to BE PIC is another story.

bob
 
unsafervguy said:
wrong.....

as to what is legal to log 61.51 spells it out:
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-

(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;

an instrument rating is not required, only that the pilot be rated in the aircraft. now, as stated, to BE PIC is another story.

bob
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You can't have two pilots be PIC. If only one is instrument rated then he is the only one that can log PIC in IMC.
 
timwinters said:
Are you sure? What about flying on a moonless night over dark countryside where you have no reference except your instruments.

I did this a few times when I flew from Harrison, AR to Hot Springs, AR for dinner as a VFR pilot. There's absolutely nothing between those two towns. Dead dark.

I didn't log it as actual instrument time because I didn't know the regs then, but later my instrument instructor told me that I could and should have.
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Unless you are not in VFR conditions outlined by the FAR (cloud clearances) you are still VFR.
 
Grum.Man said:
You can't have two pilots be PIC. If only one is instrument rated then he is the only one that can log PIC in IMC.
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Wrong. There's a difference between logging and acting as PIC. See the above post on the reg on logging PIC time.
 
Grum.Man said:
You can't have two pilots be PIC. If only one is instrument rated then he is the only one that can log PIC in IMC.
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you really need to read the FAA rulings. there are two different things at play. being PIC, which a non-instrument pilot cannot be on an instrument flight plan regardless of conditions, and logging PIC, which is governed by FAR 61.51. logging PIC is only predicated by being sole manipulator of the controls in in aircraft in which you are rated. acting as PIC is governed by the other regs. i would suggest you read this:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...09/speranza - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf

bob
 
Grum.Man said:
Maybe my last statement should have been clearer. The VFR rated pilot can not log PIC Ifr time.
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Not correct. A VFR pilot can log PIC time if he is the sole manipulator of the controls. Even in actual IMC. There is no such thing as IFR time in any regulation or any logbook I've ever seen.
 
He specifically said he was a VFR pilot. I sure hope he didn't accept an ifr clearance with only a VFR rating.
 
Grum.Man said:
He specifically said he was a VFR pilot. I sure hope he didn't accept an ifr clearance with only a VFR rating.
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If there is an instrument rated pilot in the airplane, who is legal to act as PIC under IFR, it's perfectly legal.
 
Grum.Man said:
You can't have two pilots be PIC. If only one is instrument rated then he is the only one that can log PIC in IMC.
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Correct on the first count...the instrument rated pilot is the only one who can ACT AS (be) PIC. However, if the VFR pilot was flying the airplane (sole manipulator of the controls), he can LOG PIC as long as he's got appropriate category and class ratings. The IFR pilot, who is acting as PIC, cannot log the flight, as sitting in the airplane not actually flying it isn't loggable under the circumstances we're discussing here.
 
MAKG1 said:
Umm, yes it is. Reread.
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Ummm no it's not. You need to reread... His questions was could he log Ifr pic if he was flying at night with no light or reference to horizon as a vfr pilot. No where in that statement did he say there was another pilot with him much less one with an IFR rating.
 
Hank S said:
Dude, the safety pilot's job is to look out the windows in VFR conditions while you're simulating IMC with a hood, foggles, etc. there ain't no such thing as a safety pilot in actual IMC.

So, hypothetically you can forget this hypothetical situation . . . Unless it actually happened, I which case don't talk about it and for God's sake don't try to log it! Hypothetically, of course.
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You have a legal PIC, and legal clearance. What's the problem? Sole manipulator can log PIC and actual in this case.
 
The whole safety pilot thing has a lot of grey areas. This particular situation doesn't fall into any of those areas. Once an ifr clearance is picked up, the vfr pilot is no longer a required crew member, just a passenger. If the PIC lets you fly, he is only using you as a resource, you cannot log that time.
 
Grum.Man said:
Ummm no it's not. You need to reread... His questions was could he log Ifr pic if he was flying at night with no light or reference to horizon as a vfr pilot. No where in that statement did he say there was another pilot with him much less one with an IFR rating.
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That was a tangent, not the OP.

And the definition of actual IMC references sole reference to instruments, not cloud clearances, so the moonless night can be logged as actual even in VMC.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
The whole safety pilot thing has a lot of grey areas. This particular situation doesn't fall into any of those areas. Once an ifr clearance is picked up, the vfr pilot is no longer a required crew member, just a passenger. If the PIC lets you fly, he is only using you as a resource, you cannot log that time.
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No. Read 14 CFR 61.57. If you are the sole manipulator of the controls, you can log PIC as long as you're rated for category and class.
 
TheGolfPilot said:
The whole safety pilot thing has a lot of grey areas. This particular situation doesn't fall into any of those areas. Once an ifr clearance is picked up, the vfr pilot is no longer a required crew member, just a passenger. If the PIC lets you fly, he is only using you as a resource, you cannot log that time.
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Show me the part of the reg that says you have to be a "required crewmember" to log PIC.
 
Grum.Man said:
Ummm no it's not. You need to reread... His questions was could he log Ifr pic if he was flying at night with no light or reference to horizon as a vfr pilot. No where in that statement did he say there was another pilot with him much less one with an IFR rating.
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Sure he did. It is all laid out in the first post. Unless you are replying to some other postbb
 
MAKG1 said:
That was a tangent, not the OP.

And the definition of actual IMC references sole reference to instruments, not cloud clearances, so the moonless night can be logged as actual even in VMC.
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I didn't respond to the OP the response was to his question. The answer is still no, even though the conditions may appear to be IMC he is still flying VFR.
 
I feel like this is appropriate

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