What's the history of Prop Logs

Jaybird180

Jaybird180

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Jaybird180
Doing some reading up and I noticed that aircraft have 3 logs: Airframe, Engine and Prop.

I was wondering why the Powerplant is broken into 2 logs. Is there a historical/ convenience reason and now it's the standard?

Do jets have 3 logs, Airframe, Engine and compressor blades - no that would be silly, right?
 
I should probably know this, but I don't....

Is the Prop Log tied to that specific prop, or is it tied to whatever prop is attached to the airplane at that time? Ex: If I remove the prop from the airplane and sell the prop to someone else, do I give them the prop log for the prop and start a new log for the new prop that I put on the airplane or do I keep the prop log and make an entry "Changed prop from Hartzell s/n 1234 to MT s/n 4567"?
 
Simple answer is, it makes things easier. For example if you have a time or calendar month limited AD on a propeller you dont have to search through the entire book to find when it was installed. It legally doesn't matter if you have one logbook or 5, it makes things a lot easier though.

And Technically a Propeller is an Airframe item, not powerplant :D
 
Jaybird180 said:
Doing some reading up and I noticed that aircraft have 3 logs: Airframe, Engine and Prop.

I was wondering why the Powerplant is broken into 2 logs. Is there a historical/ convenience reason and now it's the standard?

Do jets have 3 logs, Airframe, Engine and compressor blades - no that would be silly, right?
Click to expand...


Most SE airplanes with fixed pitch props combine the airframe and prop logs.

BTW, there are no requirements for "log books" in the regulations, it only requires "maintenance records". How the owner keeps his records is up to him.

It's reasonable to have a file folder with airframe, engine, prop, accessories, AD's, SB's, life limited parts, etc all combined into one.




CJones said:
I should probably know this, but I don't....

Is the Prop Log tied to that specific prop, or is it tied to whatever prop is attached to the airplane at that time? Ex: If I remove the prop from the airplane and sell the prop to someone else, do I give them the prop log for the prop and start a new log for the new prop that I put on the airplane or do I keep the prop log and make an entry "Changed prop from Hartzell s/n 1234 to MT s/n 4567"?
Click to expand...

If the log is separate, it should go with the prop. If it's not, and the prop is removed, an entry (your choice) can be written out stating when it was removed, from what airframe it was removed and time in service, then signed off by an A&P.
 
CJones said:
I should probably know this, but I don't....

Is the Prop Log tied to that specific prop, or is it tied to whatever prop is attached to the airplane at that time? Ex: If I remove the prop from the airplane and sell the prop to someone else, do I give them the prop log for the prop and start a new log for the new prop that I put on the airplane or do I keep the prop log and make an entry "Changed prop from Hartzell s/n 1234 to MT s/n 4567"?
Click to expand...

A Propeller logbook with stay with the Propeller, that way if you sell it, the buyer can show airworthiness and compliance with AD's without having to copy your entire logbook (which ever it may be in)
 
VanDy said:
Simple answer is, it makes things easier. For example if you have a time or calendar month limited AD on a propeller you dont have to search through the entire book to find when it was installed. It legally doesn't matter if you have one logbook or 5, it makes things a lot easier though.

And Technically a Propeller is an Airframe item, not powerplant :D
Click to expand...

Show me an airplane engine that produces thrust without one then.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Show me an airplane engine that produces thrust without one then.
Click to expand...

Sure, as soon as you show me a propeller that is listed on an engine TCDS as an applicable item (edit:not accessory)
 
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The bottom line is that props often go their own separate ways from the engine/airframe, and the FAA wants the records associated with that prop to go with the prop.
 
Ron Levy said:
The bottom line is that props often go their own separate ways from the engine/airframe, and the FAA wants the records associated with that prop to go with the prop.
Click to expand...

The bottom line is most single engine airplanes with fixed pitch props don't have separate log books.

If the prop is removed, all a A&P has to do is take a 3X5 card (color your choice) and make the following entry:

Date
Prop Manufacturer and Model #
S/N
TTIS

Removed propeller from AA-5B N12345 at tach time 2500 hours.

Joe Lunchbucket
123456 A&P

He can make copies of the log pages that contain any SB or AD information, as well as any invoices showing service and attach to the card.
 
RotorAndWing said:
The bottom line is most single engine airplanes with fixed pitch props don't have separate log books.
Click to expand...

The FAA is well aware that many the props on light singles do not have their own logbooks, but they want this to be changed. I know you are no longer working for the FAA, so perhaps you are unaware of the FAA's most recent guidance on point:

f. Propeller Records. [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Maintenance records are a required part of aircraft maintenance. Propeller maintenance recordkeeping responsibility is ultimately assigned to the owner/operator of aircraft operated under 14 CFR part 91 in accordance with part 91, section 91.403. Section 91.417 requires a record of maintenance, including a record of total time in service and time since last overhaul for propellers required to be overhauled on a specific time basis, for each propeller. A propeller logbook is an appropriate document for recording total time in service and time since overhaul. In some cases, lack of records may require premature maintenance activity, overhaul, or possible retirement since most ADs presume if the time in service and time since overhaul is not known, the propeller requires compliance with the most restrictive level called out in the AD. Propeller logbooks are available from various sources, including the propeller manufacturer. Damage as well as details of maintenance to the propeller should be entered into the logbook. The total time in service and time since the last overhaul recorded in the propeller logbook should be updated at minimum at the time of annual inspection when reviewing the aircraft operating maintenance records.
[/FONT][/FONT]
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AC 20-37E

A properly maintained logbook is important and is required by FAA regulation.
Click to expand...
SAIB NE-08-22: "Propeller Search Inspection (General Visual Inspection)"

Just quoting official FAA guidance, so please don't shoot the messenger.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Doing some reading up and I noticed that aircraft have 3 logs: Airframe, Engine and Prop.

I was wondering why the Powerplant is broken into 2 logs. Is there a historical/ convenience reason and now it's the standard?

Do jets have 3 logs, Airframe, Engine and compressor blades - no that would be silly, right?
Click to expand...

Because it is a time/TBO trackable appliance that can move from plane to plane. It is not a power plant, it is an aerodynamic device driven by the power plant. Compressor blades are like the pistons of a recip.
 
Ron Levy said:
The FAA is well aware that many the props on light singles do not have their own logbooks, but they want this to be changed. I know you are no longer working for the FAA, so perhaps you are unaware of the FAA's most recent guidance on point:
AC 20-37E

SAIB NE-08-22: "Propeller Search Inspection (General Visual Inspection)"

Just quoting official FAA guidance, so please don't shoot the messenger.
Click to expand...

Since AC's are not regulatory and there are no CFR requirements for a separate maintenance record, it's a nice suggestion but carries no weight other than that. :dunno:
 
RotorAndWing said:
Since AC's are not regulatory and there are no CFR requirements for a separate maintenance record, it's a nice suggestion but carries no weight other than that. :dunno:
Click to expand...
As I said originally, it's something the FAA wants. Of course, as Mick Jagger once said, you can't always get what you want, but it is the FAA's latest guidance on point.
 
Ron Levy said:
As I said originally, it's something the FAA wants. Of course, as Mick Jagger once said, you can't always get what you want, but it is the FAA's latest guidance on point.
Click to expand...

The maintenance inspector I spoke with about a year ago indicated there was no need for a separate prop logbook. Either he didn't get the memo or this guidance you're referring to is newer than that.
 
mondtster said:
The maintenance inspector I spoke with about a year ago indicated there was no need for a separate prop logbook. Either he didn't get the memo or this guidance you're referring to is newer than that.
Click to expand...

Doesn't matter. Since there is no regulatory requirement for it, the AC merely suggest it would be a good idea, nothing more.
 
As a data point of one, I actually had a prop log for my fixed pitch on my PA28-180.
I also have one for my PA24 - although that's a constant speed.

It is nice to have it broken down into two logs. Although why you would need one for a fixed pitch is puzzling, since about all you would do to it is fix dings and have it repitched.
 
EdFred said:
As a data point of one, I actually had a prop log for my fixed pitch on my PA28-180.
I also have one for my PA24 - although that's a constant speed.

It is nice to have it broken down into two logs. Although why you would need one for a fixed pitch is puzzling, since about all you would do to it is fix dings and have it repitched.
Click to expand...

ADs?:dunno: All it is is a transportable record.
 
The plane I took my PP ride in back in 2001 had three log books, air frame, engine and prop. Needed to show all three to the DPE.
 
Ron Levy said:
The FAA is well aware that many the props on light singles do not have their own logbooks, but they want this to be changed. I know you are no longer working for the FAA, so perhaps you are unaware of the FAA's most recent guidance on point
Click to expand...

It appears to me like that AC is talking about CS props only since it specifically refers to propellers that must be overhauled. R&W was talking about fixed pitch.
 
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EdFred said:
It is nice to have it broken down into two logs. Although why you would need one for a fixed pitch is puzzling, since about all you would do to it is fix dings and have it repitched.
Click to expand...
Or maybe swap it for a different prop and then sell the old one -- which is a lot easier when the buyer is getting the maintenance record on that overhauled/repaired/altered prop.
 
I was always told that you have three logs because those are the three items on your aircraft that have Type Certificates - the airframe, the engine & the prop.
 
EdFred said:
As a data point of one, I actually had a prop log for my fixed pitch on my PA28-180.
I also have one for my PA24 - although that's a constant speed.

It is nice to have it broken down into two logs. Although why you would need one for a fixed pitch is puzzling, since about all you would do to it is fix dings and have it repitched.
Click to expand...

Do props experience metal fatigue? My logic says yes, but what you're indicating here is that the prop has an unlimited service life (excluding damage).
 
timwinters said:
It appears to me like that AC is talking about CS props only since it specifically refers to propellers that must be overhauled. R&W was talking about fixed pitch.
Click to expand...

Hu?

Fixed pitch composite prop 2000 hrs or 72 month page 61-30-01 page 1
http://www.mccauley.textron.com/mpc28ow.pdf



McCauley Fixed pitch aluminum Section 61-00-06 pages 607 & 608
http://www.mccauley.textron.com/mpc26ow.pdf
P. Fixed pitch propellers - 2000 hours or 72 calendar months which ever occurs first*. Additionally the propeller mounting bolt torque should be checked at least once per year. Propeller mounting bolts must be magnetic particle inspected in accordance with ASTM E-1444 or liquid penetrant
inspected in accordance with ASTM E-1417 or replaced at every overhaul. Propeller mounting bolts must be replaced whenever the propeller is involved in a blade strike as defined in Necessary Actions Following Object Strike of Stationary Propeller, Blade Strike of Rotating Propeller, Bird Strike, or Sudden Engine Stoppage.
• *For 1A170E/JHA[XXXX] propellers only, installed on Aircraft Operating as Pilot Schools in
accordance with 14 CFR, Part 141, and all aircraft with 2000 or more cycles for every 1000
flight hours must be inspected in accordance with Service Bulletin 240[X] every 1000 hours
or 72 calendar months whichever occurs first.
• *For 1A103/TCM[XXXX] propellers only, the overhaul frequency is every 1500 hours of
operation or 72 calendar months, whichever occurs first. All propellers with 1500 or more
hours total time in service must be inspected in accordance with Alert Service Bulletin 221[X]
every 750 hours of operation or 36 calendar months whichever occurs first.

Sensenich fixed

On August 20, 1997 the New York Aircraft Certification Office
approved Sensenich’s request to increase its fixed-pitch aluminum propeller
TBO time from 1000 hours to 2000 hours.

http://www.sensenich.com/files/documents/Service_Bulletins_R-17_1263314631.pdf
 
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Basically if the thing has a type certificate it is very nice that it has a log book.

Type Certificate Items:

Props
Engines
Airframes

Many aircraft also have APU and Avionics log books

Pick your poison.
 
Ron Levy said:
So was I, and so was the FAA. The FAA really does want separate logs for all props. Don't believe either me or the guidance I linked earlier? Call the FAA Engine and Prop Directorate and ask them.
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...s/offices/air/directorates_field/engine_prop/
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That's your interpretation only.

If the FAA truly wanted separate records for airframe/engine/prop they would draft and implement a change to the regulations requiring such. As it stands now, there is no regulation requiring such.

As it stands right now (regulatory speaking) it is fully acceptable to have all maintenance records contained within one book as long as the contents meet the regulations.
 
KRyan said:
I was always told that you have three logs because those are the three items on your aircraft that have Type Certificates - the airframe, the engine & the prop.
Click to expand...

You were told wrong. As the person that told you that to show you the regulation stating that is a requirement. :rolleyes:
 
KRyan said:
I was always told that you have three logs because those are the three items on your aircraft that have Type Certificates - the airframe, the engine & the prop.
Click to expand...

You have three because it makes it more convenient, you can have everything in one notebook if you want. There is no regulation on how to format the information, just what information you need to have.
 
Henning said:
You have three because it makes it more convenient, you can have everything in one notebook if you want. There is no regulation on how to format the information, just what information you need to have.
Click to expand...

Bingo!

You can run a separate log for anything, such as life limited parts.


That would be a PITA with paper logs.

 
bnt83 said:
http://www.mccauley.textron.com/mpc28ow.pdf
Click to expand...

61-30-01 Page 105​

© McCauley Propeller Systems​
​
​
​
Mar 7/2011​

McCAULEY PROPELLER SYSTEMS​
OWNER/OPERATOR​
INFORMATION MANUAL​

If the frequency or resonance (vibration/pitch) has changed from the original base line (natural) frequency to an out​
​
​
​
of range frequency, then this is an indication of propeller internal failure or an improper repair.

Propellers that are found to have an out of range frequency must be removed from service and scrapped.​

NOTE:​
​
​
​
​
Propellers that have a frequency or resonance (vibration/pitch) that has changed from the original base line (natural) frequency but are within the acceptable frequency range, no action required, this can be an indication of the normal propeller aging process.​
I still have not found the life limit of a propeller, although I found a reference to prop aging. What's that bit about internal failure?
 
Jaybird180 said:

61-30-01 Page 105​

© McCauley Propeller Systems​
​
​
​
Mar 7/2011​

McCAULEY PROPELLER SYSTEMS​
OWNER/OPERATOR​
INFORMATION MANUAL​

If the frequency or resonance (vibration/pitch) has changed from the original base line (natural) frequency to an out​
​
​
​
of range frequency, then this is an indication of propeller internal failure or an improper repair.

Propellers that are found to have an out of range frequency must be removed from service and scrapped.​

NOTE:​
​
​
​
​
Propellers that have a frequency or resonance (vibration/pitch) that has changed from the original base line (natural) frequency but are within the acceptable frequency range, no action required, this can be an indication of the normal propeller aging process.​
I still have not found the life limit of a propeller, although I found a reference to prop aging. What's that bit about internal failure?
Click to expand...

I missed adding the link to the aluminum prop manual, its in that post now.
 
Looks like there is no life limit to a FP prop, which I find strange.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Looks like there is no life limit to a FP prop, which I find strange.
Click to expand...

There is a life limit, it's just a conditional limit rather than calendar or clock in this case. It's a vibration limit. Internal defects can come from vibration fatigue, inclusions in the forging process that have grown, small ding/crack that has spread. The extra vibration frequency indicates that it has lost dimensional integrity. On a prop that means it's not going to be too long until it gives up the ghost and sheds something.

There are also measurement specs it's supposed to pass each annual. If it doesn't pass, you replace or refurbish this prop as allowed. I'd guess you can weld up and re-heat treat an old one back into proper condition.
 
I just spoke with the "Engine & Propeller Directorate Standards Staff" and was told that fixed pitch props are not "overhauled". Rather they are "reconditioned".

FWIW
 
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