What would you do with it?

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by Tom-D, Nov 21, 2017.

  1. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    0-300-D / 172 tipped up during high wings, engine was spinning down with the mixture pulled.

    it's about 1/8" th deep and 1/8" wide. McCauley 1A170 fixed pitch.

    real picture
     

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  2. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    What did it hit? Two different answers. One correct one, one not so correct. After due diligence, I think I know what I would be inclined to do but all I would admit to is filing out a nick.
     
  3. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    I don't know who hijacked my account but I didn't write the above.
     
  4. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Did the engine sustain sudden stoppage?

    Refer to the engine manual if it did.

    Refer to the propeller manual for the prop damage.
     
  5. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Final Approach

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    Call the ins. co.
     
  6. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

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    I'm not sure where you're going with this Tom, but regulations wise there is nothing you are forced to do on a Continental even if it was under power when the prop hit. Last I checked Continental does have a service bulletin on appropriate actions after a prop strike though, which is what I'd suggest consulting and following.
     
  7. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    technically....yes, sudden stoppage. Practically it'll probably buff out.....:ohsnap::rollercoaster:
     
  8. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    As I recall when I owned an O-300, if the prop must be removed to repair the damage, the engine needs to come apart. We went through that drill when I had the skull cap spinner come off in flight and get cut in half by the prop.


    Can you properly repair it without removal? That would be the first question.
     
  9. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Bondo?
     
  10. Bell206

    Bell206 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Tom-D:
    Not so much what to do with it, but how will you sign it off.
     
  11. Bell206

    Bell206 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    FT:
    It's all in the terminology used. Most Continental guidance points to if the nick can be corrected by "minor dressing," even if the prop comes off, no engine tear down required. But if the nick requires a "repair" outside minor dressing then all bets are off.
     
  12. CC268

    CC268 En-Route

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    Come on man...kick the tires light the fires, ain't got not time for this BS
     
  13. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Pattern Altitude

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    If we have to ask about or question the potential need for internal damage, screw the guidance, tear it down? Maintenance has its own risks (maint induced failures), sure. But I only ask one question in trying to figure out what to do - what's the cost difference and is my life as a pilot/passenger or conscience as a mechanic worth that dollar amount.
     
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  14. JAWS

    JAWS Pre-takeoff checklist

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    This should be interesting! :)
     
  15. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    done.. we wait.
     
  16. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    I posted to see what others here would do.

    I advised the owners (and the CFI who was taxiing) to turn it in to the insurance company, and see what they will cover. the engine is under a thousand hours but beyond the time limit for overhauling.
    I've heard that the insurance company may prorate the coverage on the engine. or may even not insure it if it isn't torn down and comply with the SB. so we wait to hear from them.
    They also have wing damage.
     
  17. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    git yer buffer out Tom.....:D
     
  18. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    It was a polished prop. it will get done again.
     
  19. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude

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    JB Weld
     
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  20. Bell206

    Bell206 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    455:
    In general, I think it all depends on your personal viewpoint. If you’re an owner where money is no object, then they usually follow one predictable path—but they still want additional options for comparison. Whereas if you’re a weekend warrior type owner who is on a wife imposed budget then they normally want ALL the options.

    That’s the whole purpose of guidance, to make an informed decision on airworthiness. And as a mechanic, I would not lose sleep after reviewing the applicable references/guidance and determined an aircraft airworthy or proposed various options to get the plane to that state.

    It is what it is. Some cases there are no options, airworthy = $25,000 teardown. In others I might be able get you to airworthy for $500, or $4500, or $25,000 with each option following acceptable/approved guidance. But that now becomes the owner’s decision after I explain each option to him. I can’t legally make that decision for him.

    To expand on the O-300 example, what if this was a Piper Meriden with a turbine engine and we didn’t have a prop strike but a simple engine chip light. I pull the chip plug and it has a dozen metal flakes of various sizes. So we have concrete proof “something” is shedding metal. However, current OEM guidance, complete with pictures, says the metal is acceptable. So I clean/reinstall the plug, following the OEM guidance.

    Now the owner can tell me no and wants to tear the engine down to be sure. That’s fine on my part but in this case you would be looking closer to $250,000 than the $25,000 with the O-300 above, plus my labor to remove/install the engine. The question would then be what’s a life or conscience worth, $25,000--$250,000--or ???

    So from my viewpoint most owner’s conscience follows the dollar first, then worries about everything else. Just look at all those who fly aircraft around with issues that go against current applicable OEM/FAA guidance which money could easily fix.
     
  21. 455 Bravo Uniform

    455 Bravo Uniform Pattern Altitude

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    @Bell206 I agree with everything you say. Your first sentence is the key. It's a personal decision.

    I make my own decisions, and sometimes check myself by asking for input, then take action accordingly.

    For me, money is not a decision factor. I would not have taken the plunge and bought this ****** money-pit dollar-sucker 40 year old plane if that were not true. I'm all-in now and will sell if I can't afford to maintain it to my own conservative safety standards or conscience (I sometimes hate living with myself, I'm such a PITA). Who knows, I may sell it by next summer (seriously); Everything I own is for sale all the time anyway...

    (By the way, to be clear, I'm not an A&P, just a wrench monkey.)
     
  22. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Money is a big factor here, these owners are young student pilots, on a partnership, with a CFI using the aircraft to teach as an offset to money for lessons.

    I feel the prop does not present the criteria for a prop strike.

    but,,, we wait for the insurance company to tell us what they will pay for.
     
  23. charlie

    charlie Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Continental crankshaft flanges are surface hardened and very prone to cracking. One IO-520 that hit a very light towbar and did not stop gad a cracked crank that could well have been caused by the strike. Another TSIO-520 had the nose gear collapse on the takeoff roll. The prop was destroyed. The crankshaft was fine. A prop strike inspection ought to be around $7-8K excluding damage and wear or corrosion related repairs that could be necessary to maintain basic airworthiness. Depending on what mags it has they may need to be overhauled. Charlie Melot veteran of around 2000 prop strike inspections.
     
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  24. Bell206

    Bell206 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    455:
    I hear you. But if you are the type who does take the high road on maintenance and suffers the financial impact of your TC aircraft, then you may just want to trade your 40 year old money pit on a newer, sleeker E/AB or E-LSA and wrench your own monkeys. You should also have no problem finding an A&P to do your conditionals with your standards. Or, on the E-LSA attend a 16 hour course and do your own conditional. It is an option I always recommend to the right people.
     
  25. Luigi

    Luigi Pre-takeoff checklist

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    C'mon, Did the prop hit one of your clients in the head? :) (just kidding)
     
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  26. mscard88

    mscard88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Ouch. Low blow. :eek:
     
  27. Getonit

    Getonit Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Just make sure to put a patch weight on other blade to keep it balanced.
     

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  28. Briar Rabbit

    Briar Rabbit Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Wow, I would spring for a new prop before I would fly around with something like that picture on the front of my bird!
     
  29. Checkout_my_Six

    Checkout_my_Six Final Approach

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    hey....it's happened. I seen it.....o_O
     
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  30. JAWS

    JAWS Pre-takeoff checklist

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    From McCauley Manual MPC-26, page 610:

    C. Blade Strike of Rotating Propeller (Refer to Figure 601).
    (1) "Blade Strike", sometimes referred to as "Ground Strike", is defined as any impact or suspected
    impact of the rotating propeller upon such items as, but not limited to, the ground, tow bars,
    landing lights, carts, snow banks, hedges, etc. Please note that this definition is intended for
    use as an example only. Determination as to whether or not a blade strike actually occurred is
    ultimately the responsibility of the aircraft operator.
    CAUTION: Internal damage can occur without evidence of gross external
    damage.
    (a) Any McCauley propeller experiencing a blade strike must be removed from the aircraft
    and overhauled by an FAA approved Part 145 Propeller Repair Station or international
    equivalent in accordance with the applicable overhaul manual. A hub must be declared
    unairworthy and scrapped if any blade in the propeller assembly is bent beyond repair
    limits below the 85% station.

    I like the sentence "
    Determination as to whether or not a blade strike actually occurred is
    ultimately the responsibility of the aircraft operator.".

    Places the responsibility (as far as McCauley is concerned) where it should be!

    Nice to have a manual such as this, I think. :)
     
  31. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Do you see a 1A170 listed?
    This propeller came with no such ICA instructions.
    we go with the TCM service bulletin. minor dressing of the prop = no prop strike.
    this is simply minor.
     
  32. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Whatever floats your boat.
     
  33. JAWS

    JAWS Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Take your pick. Introduction, page 2.

    upload_2017-11-22_19-17-45.png

    upload_2017-11-22_19-15-14.png
     
  34. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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  35. JAWS

    JAWS Pre-takeoff checklist

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    From TCM Standard Practices Manual M-0, age 6-152

    upload_2017-11-22_19-42-57.png
     
  36. JAWS

    JAWS Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Depends on the size of the nick! :)
     
  37. Luigi

    Luigi Pre-takeoff checklist

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    If you don't like the replies, why do you post here? You are kind of a lightning rod. A nick and a piece out of the prop are two different things. No disrespect intended.
     
  38. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Yep, and we've all had a depth mike on this one :)
     
  39. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

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    Do you see a piece missing ? Where ?

    and really, who cares.
    I post here because I can. and so do you.
     
  40. GlennAB1

    GlennAB1 Ejection Handle Pulled

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    OP posted a picture and gave dimensions.