What will you do with me (and others like me?)

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Half Fast said:
Being the father of a Downs daughter, I too find the term offensive. But so what? I do not have any "right" to live my life without being offended, and no one is under any obligation to refrain from offending me.

Rudeness can be seen for what it is, and doesn't have to be elevated to a fighting offense.
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That's true. I do find it offensive (one of the few terms) but I would never try ban the word whether it be on an Internet forum or some sort of protest.
 
azblackbird said:
No smelting metal, yes on domesticated horses, no wheel. They used blankets or hide between skid poles harnessed to a horse. The Indians basically taught the early white man how to hunt, grow crops, and survive the harsh winters. The white men were totally lost when they first arrived and only had meager provisions. They were very lucky to have survived that first year. Now look at us. :mad:
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No on the horses. Equus was extinct in the Americas 7000 to 10,000 years ago. The horse was re-introduced to the Americas by Europeans and the native people either got them from the Europeans directly, or got feral horses. If you said "llama", you would have been more correct although those seem limited to some of the Andean cultures. As for the white men surviving the winter, which white men? Some colonies didn't survive and disappeared, others got help from the natives as you wrote. The Spaniards seemed to do OK.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
No on the horses. Equus was extinct in the Americas 7000 to 10,000 years ago.
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I agree... Columbus brought a few horses with with him on one of his voyages to the Virgin Islands. They then later made their way up through Florida and on up the east coast. That more of less began the re-population of the current equine species at least on that side of the continent. The early Spanish explorers of S. American, Mexico, etc, re-introduced them to the western side of the US. By the time the pilgrims started arriving and colonizing, the early natives already had domesticated horses and other livestock.
 
weilke said:
Circling back to the question in the first post:


We'll give you a laquered wooden board with a brass plate that reads: Unique snowflake
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Snowflake? Doesn't the fact that I voted for Trump, and am STILL happy I did cancel out any chance of the snowflake moniker? I am out of my pajamas by 10:00 AM, for sure!
 
spiderweb said:
Snowflake? Doesn't the fact that I voted for Trump, and am STILL happy I did cancel out any chance of the snowflake moniker? I am out of my pajamas by 10:00 AM, for sure!
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Well, you wrote an entire post on how unique and special you are and you were asking for affirmation of specialness. 'Snowflake' refers to the idea that there is no snowflake exactly like the other, it is not a reference to its fragile nature.
 
weilke said:
Well, you wrote an entire post on how unique and special you are and you were asking for affirmation of specialness. 'Snowflake' refers to the idea that there is no snowflake exactly like the other, it is not a reference to its fragile nature.
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I was actually not for affirmation--rather, I was hoping for a fight. Sad that everyone is so civil LOL! ;)
 
spiderweb said:
I was actually not for affirmation--rather, I was hoping for a fight. Sad that everyone is so civil LOL! ;)
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Yeah, it kind of lowers the excitement level. We talked about politics and religion, quoted from the Bible and Koran, and still no fireworks!
 
spiderweb said:
I was actually not for affirmation--rather, I was hoping for a fight. Sad that everyone is so civil LOL! ;)
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What is there to fight about ? We already knew you were an odd duck ;-)
 
Cooter said:
I deleted that part, I apologize if it was out of line.
I didn't mean it to be antagonistic, it was meant be lighthearted. But it does sound familiar to something I've heard before.

Either way, I would like to know by what means your beliefs teach that racial reconciliation will occur. I think you said before that it will happen in a future world what about now? What does it look like? Also, you're quoting from the Qur'an and the Bible. Can you share about how those two sources of scripture meld, and if one takes precedence over another? You can PM me if you like, I'm genuinely curious.
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No hard feelings whatsoever.
I believe I've answered most, if not all of your questions on racial harmony in my previous post, so I won't repeat them. Look them over again and look deeper, it's all there.

Here is the answer to your last question. We are facing the end of this world as we know it. The messengers of God did all that they could to guide humanity to the right path. Does one take precedence over the other? Not according to the one who sent them. Peace!

Al-'Imran — The Family of Amran
In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.

3:1 I, Allah, am the best Knower,
3:2 Allah, (there is) no god but He, the Ever-living, the Self-subsisting, by Whom all subsist.
3:3 He has revealed to thee the Book with truth, verifying that which is before it, and He revealed the Torah and the Gospel

3:84 Say: We believe in Allah and that which is revealed to us, and that which was revealed to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and that which was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord; we make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we submit.

2:87 And We indeed gave Moses the Book and We sent messengers after him one after another; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear arguments and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit. Is it then that whenever there came to you a messenger with what your souls desired not, you were arrogant? And some you gave the lie to and others you would slay.

John 12:31
31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.

Matthew 24:35-36
35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away.
36 No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Ibrahim — Abraham:
14:47 So think not that Allah will fail in His promise to His messengers. Surely Allah is Mighty, the Lord of retribution.
14:48 On the day when the earth will be changed into a different earth, and the heavens (as well), and they will come forth to Allah, the One, the Supreme.

Al-A'raf — The Elevated Places:
7:187 They ask thee about the Hour, when will it come to pass? Say: The knowledge thereof is with my Lord only. None but He will manifest it at its time. It is momentous in the heavens and the earth. It will not come to you but of a sudden. They ask thee as if thou wert solicitous about it. Say: Its knowledge is with Allah only, but most people know not.
 
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Cooter said:
Yeah, it kind of lowers the excitement level. We talked about politics and religion, quoted from the Bible and Koran, and still no fireworks!
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It is truly amazing!
 
denverpilot said:
So did you swipe left or right on Tinder? ;-)
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I'm sure you meant Grinder.

spiderweb said:
I was actually not for affirmation--rather, I was hoping for a fight. Sad that everyone is so civil LOL! ;)
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Gets away with breaking the ROC's and proceeds to admit to trolling. You were supposed to pretend you weren't trolling.

What's this place coming to?
 
redtail said:
I believe I've answered most, if not all of your questions on racial harmony in my previous post, so I won't repeat them. Look them over again and look deeper, it's all there.
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I'll just say this about your response, I see a conflict in the answer you have given. A generous interpretation would read what you posted as saying that since we all come from the same place, there is no room for arrogance and the distinctions are about as silly as two brothers arguing against one another as to who has the better ancestry. If that's what you are getting at, then your answer is to acknowledge that we are all essentially one. Which sounds pretty reasonable.

But, in the same post you then separate the races into Black and White and say that God rewards and punishes along racial lines. Blacks dominated the world, messed up so it was taken away. God gives white people a chance, and now they are messing it up. If we are all one as you post initially, why does God empower, or remove from power his children, along racial lines?n Any why are we supposed to ignore what God obviously sees?
 
Cooter said:
I'll just say this about your response, I see a conflict in the answer you have given. A generous interpretation would read what you posted as saying that since we all come from the same place, there is no room for arrogance and the distinctions are about as silly as two brothers arguing against one another as to who has the better ancestry. If that's what you are getting at, then your answer is to acknowledge that we are all essentially one. Which sounds pretty reasonable.

But, in the same post you then separate the races into Black and White and say that God rewards and punishes along racial lines. Blacks dominated the world, messed up so it was taken away. God gives white people a chance, and now they are messing it up. If we are all one as you post initially, why does God empower, or remove from power his children, along racial lines? Any why are we supposed to ignore what God obviously sees?
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As a quick follow on for illustration, I see your initial point as being along the lines of my boys having brown and blue eyes. The color of their eyes means nothing to me as far as their significance or my love for them. With that being the case, it would be foolish to make that distinction in how I reward them. Or to attribute their success or failures to their eye color, even in an indirect way.

19 “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the guilt of the father?’ Because the son has done what is lawful and right, and has kept all My statutes and observed them, he shall surely live. 20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

21 “But if a wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed, keeps all My statutes, and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 22 None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has done, he shall live. Ezekiel Ch. 18
 
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azblackbird said:
No smelting metal, yes on domesticated horses, no wheel. They used blankets or hide between skid poles harnessed to a horse. The Indians basically taught the early white man how to hunt, grow crops, and survive the harsh winters. The white men were totally lost when they first arrived and only had meager provisions. They were very lucky to have survived that first year. Now look at us. :mad:
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Yes for smelting metal. South America and Mexico, they were smelting copper from sulfide ores before the Europeans came. North America- they had copper before the Europeans came but that was from exposed deposits of relatively pure metal. There was some bronze found, so there is a chance they were ready to get to the "bronze age".

You may enjoy reading "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond.
 
spiderweb said:
I have--I have just stayed away from the religion piece.
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That's the best part! Otherwise the discussion fades when you get into issues like race. I don't think the irreligious have any answers or solutions for problems like racial discord.
 
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Cap'n Jack said:
Yes for smelting metal. South America and Mexico, they were smelting copper from sulfide ores before the Europeans came. North America- they had copper before the Europeans came but that was from exposed deposits of relatively pure metal. There was some bronze found, so there is a chance they were ready to get to the "bronze age".
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Jack... the discussion was about the early colonization of America and the progression to slavery. I'm very well aware of the Incas, Aztecs, and other tribes and how advanced they were.

Speaking of the early domestication of horses on the N. American continent, here's something you might want to peruse. Some very interesting theories.
 
Rushie said:
I see absolutely no contradiction between evolution and God's commandment to be fruitful and multiply.
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Except that the commandment is devoid of meaning if man we're already the product of millions of years of evolution. The command should have been, "keep doing what you're doing, it's working beautifully".
 
That didn't make the top 10. Must have been on the tablet Moses dropped (Monty Python).
 
azblackbird said:
Jack... the discussion was about the early colonization of America and the progression to slavery. I'm very well aware of the Incas, Aztecs, and other tribes and how advanced they were.

Speaking of the early domestication of horses on the N. American continent, here's something you might want to peruse. Some very interesting theories.
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Those people were native Americans and are pertinent to the conversation.

As for this claim in your link: "This “coincidental extinction” seemed to make a lot of “logical sense;” but it didn’t withstand the test of time. Archeologists kept uncovering horse bones that were subjected to radiocarbon testing; and the resulting dates kept getting closer-and-closer to the Modern Era. Currently, theorists who like the Extinction Model have to be content with 5,000 BC as the horizon for their presumed event."

That doesn't quite mesh with the claim from plains natives that "they always had horses" as there would still be a continuum of horse remains. The gap still exists, though it would be interesting if it is filled in. Depending on when the question was asked and the way it were asked, "we always had TV" would be stated by people today. The link is missing enough to prevent a critical analysis of its assumptions and references. The time frame of ~5000 years ago is also close to the time for the last mammoths (https://www.newscientist.com/articl...mammoths-died-of-thirst-on-an-alaskan-island/ ). That's another extinction event that has moved closer to "modern times".
 
Cap'n Jack said:
That doesn't quite mesh with the claim from plains natives that "they always had horses" as there would still be a continuum of horse remains. The gap still exists, though it would be interesting if it is filled in.
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You guys are talking over my level with this, but I once read a book on how the introduction or re-intorduction of the horse changed the tribal relationships of the Plains indians. By adapting their lifestyle, the once poor plains indians spread their influence and came to rule the plains. The book drew the parallels to the Comanches and the Mongols, and followed the Comanche's reign up to the time when they were finally settled.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
TThe time frame of ~5000 years ago is also close to the time for the last mammoths (https://www.newscientist.com/articl...mammoths-died-of-thirst-on-an-alaskan-island/ ). That's another extinction event that has moved closer to "modern times".
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Oopsie daisy... there's that pesky "climate change" rearing it's ugly head again and wiping out an entire species. :eek:

Cooter said:
You guys are talking over my level with this
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You're talking way above my level with your theology excerpts. Pretty interesting stuff from a layman's perspective. ;)
 
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Cooter said:
I'll just say this about your response, I see a conflict in the answer you have given. A generous interpretation would read what you posted as saying that since we all come from the same place, there is no room for arrogance and the distinctions are about as silly as two brothers arguing against one another as to who has the better ancestry. If that's what you are getting at, then your answer is to acknowledge that we are all essentially one. Which sounds pretty reasonable.

But, in the same post you then separate the races into Black and White and say that God rewards and punishes along racial lines. Blacks dominated the world, messed up so it was taken away. God gives white people a chance, and now they are messing it up. If we are all one as you post initially, why does God empower, or remove from power his children, along racial lines?n Any why are we supposed to ignore what God obviously sees?
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All excellent points. If I had definitive answers, I'd be able to solve the problems. Why did God allow Cain to form thoughts of hatred and murder for Abel? Iblis was a rebel. Why did God create the devil?

5:27 And relate to them with truth the story of the two sons of Adam, when they offered an offering, but it was accepted from one of them and was not accepted from the other. He said: I will certainly kill thee. (The other) said: Allah accepts only from the dutiful.
5:28 If thou stretch out thy hand against me to kill me I shall not stretch out my hand against thee to kill thee. Surely I fear Allah, the Lord of the worlds:

5:29 I would rather that thou shouldst bear the sin against me and thine own sin, thus thou wouldst be of the companions of the Fire; and that is the recompense of the unjust.
5:30 At length his mind made it easy for him to kill his brother, so he killed him; so he became one of the losers.

These are all complicated questions and issues that the prophets tried to solve. Heck, even the angels (created before man) questioned God on matters of the choices he made.
I do believe that overall, man is a flawed creation, completely out of order, self destructive and headed for the next "stage" toward eventual perfection. The prophets and messengers are all a part of that process. A new heaven and earth. The Messiah (Christ) will herald in that new world of ultimate peace, unity and divine order, according both Bible and Qur'an. It's bigger than 'religion' per se. Best we can do in the meantime, as individuals, is treat one another with respect.

Prophet Muhammad’s Example of Anti-Racism
By Craig Considine
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-considine/prophet-muhammads-example_1_b_6734934.html

"I consider Muhammad to be a quintessential anti-racist figure because he promoted peace and equality. Without a doubt, he advanced human rights in an area of the world that had no previous experience with this practice. Non-Muslims who belittle the Prophet as a racist murderer have certainly not considered the examples highlighted above.

To further promote better relations between Muslims and non-Muslims as well as people of different skin colors, it is imperative that media outlets highlight Muhammad’s anti-racist ethos. Rather than being a divisive figure, Muhammad is an inspiration for those working to rid the world of the evil of racism."
 
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redtail said:
All excellent points. If I had definitive answers, I'd be able to solve the problems. Why did God allow Cain to form thoughts of hatred and murder for Abel? Iblis was a rebel. Why did God create the devil?

These are all complicated questions and issues that the prophets tried to solve. Heck, even the angels (created before man) questioned God on matters of the choices he made.
I do believe that overall, man is a flawed creation, completely out of order, self destructive and headed for the next "stage" toward eventual perfection. The prophets and messengers are all a part of that process. A new heaven and earth. The Messiah (Christ) will herald in that new world of ultimate peace, unity and divine order, according both Bible and Qur'an. It's bigger than 'religion' per se. Best we can do in the meantime, as individuals, is treat one another with respect.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-considine/prophet-muhammads-example_1_b_6734934.html
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I appreciate your honesty. Certainly no one has all the right answers, but that doesn't mean that right answers can't be found. We should therefore continue to seek out the Truth, and understand that God makes Himself known to those who seek Him. Jer. 29:13

I am not a preacher nor do I want to preach, but in the words of Ravioli, Here I Go:

I think everyone here would agree that there is something wrong with the world. Any student of history will tell you that the history of man is a history of war and bloodshed. We're fortunate to live in fairly safe times but man has a propensity for destruction. We need to ask ourselves what the best explanation is for why that is?

Why are we angry? Why are we hateful? Why do we hurt each other? Is that the way life is supposed to be? If so, then why do we care? Why do we want it to be better than it is? The animals don't question their behavior, and regret their condition. Do they?

If natural selection has been the driving force behind our evolution and refinement as a species, then why do we reject it now? Have we risen above our evolution? If so, how? And why are we not willing to let those who are fittest thrive at the expense of those who are weak? Don't we reject that as civilized people? What is charity and compassion? (Don't worry, I know the answers many will be eager to offer, but its not a complete explanation) Doesn't that go against the Darwinian stream? Why should there be conservation? Doesn't extinction serve as the refiners fire? Isn't it why humans became human? Otherwise we'd still be pond scum.

These are questions that we should be asking ourselves, and we should use these questions to drive our search for meaning in truth.

My brief response, then I'll let it be. The answer is to be found in design and purpose. It is because we are no longer living according to our design or our purpose.

Suppose I wanted something to cut my yard with, and I was convinced that a chainsaw was the best option. I would probably figure out a way to make it work and my yard would get cut, but it would be a disaster every time I cut it. I think its easy to imagine the frustration and the cursing that would result. But the problem isn't with the saw or with the engineers who designed the saw. The problem is with the salesmen who lied and sent me down the wrong path and making me believe something that wasn't true. And the problem is with me for believing an obvious lie.

So that's our problem. We've believed a lie, and we've let ourselves be duped. What is the lie, and why do we believe it? Well you'll have to stay tuned until next weeks episode!..... Only kidding, but the answer probably does lie outside of the ROC. The Mods have been generous, so I won't push my luck with them. But my PMs are open for anyone who wants to hear more. How could you stand to miss it?
 
Cooter said:
Suppose I wanted something to cut my yard with, and I was convinced that a chainsaw was the best option. I would probably figure out a way to make it work and my yard would get cut, but it would be a disaster every time I cut it. I think its easy to imagine the frustration and the cursing that would result. But the problem isn't with the saw or with the engineers who designed the saw. The problem is with the salesmen who lied and sent me down the wrong path and making me believe something that wasn't true. And the problem is with me for believing an obvious lie.
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Poor analogy. In the modern era I couldn't put even 5% of the blame on the salesperson when someone would easily see no one else is cutting their yard that way. Observation and personal responsibility always factor in. Not too many people with yards to cut are quite that disconnected from civilization to see what they're doing isn't the norm.

Plus the "blame the salesman" is overdone in the real world these days anyway. "I was told there would be free government ****! Where's my free ****?"... as a seemingly ridiculous one until one realizes how many people utilize that excuse, when all indications from the entirety of human history show there never has been, and never will be, any "free government ****". Ever.

In other words, if people WANT to believe the "salesman", it's still on them for doing so against all evidence to the contrary that a chainsaw isn't the right tool for that job.

All they have to do in either the hypothetical chainsaw analogy, OR the real world, is just observe the blatantly obvious.
 
denverpilot said:
Poor analogy. In the modern era I couldn't put even 5% of the blame on the salesperson when someone would easily see no one else is cutting their yard that way. Observation and personal responsibility always factor in. Not too many people with yards to cut are quite that disconnected from civilization to see what they're doing isn't the norm.

Plus the "blame the salesman" is overdone in the real world these days anyway. "I was told there would be free government ****! Where's my free ****?"... as a seemingly ridiculous one until one realizes how many people utilize that excuse, when all indications from the entirety of human history show there never has been, and never will be, any "free government ****". Ever.

In other words, if people WANT to believe the "salesman", it's still on them for doing so against all evidence to the contrary that a chainsaw isn't the right tool for that job.

All they have to do in either the hypothetical chainsaw analogy, OR the real world, is just observe the blatantly obvious.
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Wow. Way to miss the point. :eek:

I wouldn't even call that missing the forest for the trees. I would say it's more like running straight into the first tree at the edge of the forest and knocking yourself out. How's that analogy?o_O

Analogies aren't required to connect on all points, that isn't their purpose. Their purpose is to bring clarity to one central or overarching point. But anyway, I'll try to explain a little.

All they have to do in either the hypothetical chainsaw analogy, OR the real world, is just observe the blatantly obvious.
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I'm not really sure what to say about the gov't point, so I'll just skip it. But the absurdity of the chainsaw being used to cut grass is the point. If you're still hung up on the analogy, envision everyone using chainsaws to cut grass, except for a few. Using chainsaws to cut grass is what Everybody does, especially the cool kids. And if you complain about it's inefficiency, well that's just life. Life ain't easy, so we're told. Not only that, but it's cool to ridicule to idiots who actually use a lawnmower!
http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=101910362

http://bible.oremus.org/?ql=101910362

If you still don't like it, pick another analogy. That's just what came to mind, it probably isn't perfect but it works for me.
 
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Cap'n Jack said:
Yes for smelting metal. South America and Mexico, they were smelting copper from sulfide ores before the Europeans came. North America- they had copper before the Europeans came but that was from exposed deposits of relatively pure metal. There was some bronze found, so there is a chance they were ready to get to the "bronze age".

You may enjoy reading "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond.
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I sit corrected. I have read that book and love, love it! It's just that I've slept since then and can't retain stuff in my brain anymore. :D
 
Cooter said:
Except that the commandment is devoid of meaning if man we're already the product of millions of years of evolution. The command should have been, "keep doing what you're doing, it's working beautifully".
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This is only a problem if you are confining yourself to the four dimensional space-time continuum. Linear chronological logic isn't something I hold scripture to.
 
Rushie said:
Linear chronological logic isn't something I hold scripture to.
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Hmmm, that's interesting. Then I'm not sure how you could expect to find any meaning in it. Contradiction are contradictions, whether spoken by God or man (not to be confused with a paradox or mystery). Without that understanding, how can truth be discerned? You then, become the arbiter of truth and carry the meaning to scripture, rather that scripture conveying truth to you.
 
Cooter said:
Hmmm, that's interesting. Then I'm not sure how you could expect to find any meaning in it. Contradiction are contradictions, whether spoken by God or man (not to be confused with a paradox or mystery). Without that understanding, how can truth be discerned? You then, become the arbiter of truth and carry the meaning to scripture, rather that scripture conveying truth to you.
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Yep, that's about the size of it. It seems to me that everyone carries meaning to scripture, not the other way around, but most people then want to claim their particular interpretation is the actual true truth coming TO them, as you say. My problem then becomes: Which one is correct?

My interpretation? Yours? The Pope's? Warren Jeff's? I dunno.

Any discussion of religion seems to boil down to that: "My version is the absolute true one that God intended and yours is not." What am I supposed to do with that? No matter what I pick it will be wrong according to somebody.

So what can I do but carry my own meaning to it? When I was 16 I had a spiritual experience where Jesus flooded me with love and light which has remained ever since. Scripture is just a signpost, not the goal. That experience, grace, is the goal. I'm not going to focus on trying to force logical meaning into scripture. To me, doing that misses the point.
 
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