What to get to replace old avionics?

jd21476

jd21476

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jd21476
I just bought a 1959 Piper Comanche and I believe it has all the original avionics. I want to upgrade to more modern stuff but prices are outrageous. The transponder is inop and it will need ADS-B. I like the GTN 750 but the price is out of my range. I also looked at a Garmin 695/696 but Id like something I can mount in the panel.
This is what I would like, anyone have some cost effective options:

IFR (I plan on getting my IFR so this would be nice)
ADS-B in & out
Weather
Terrain
Moving maps (Similar to GNS430 or 530)
Something that looks good.
 
One option would be, I suppose a 375 (I don't like the all in one nature to that box, but beggars can't be choosers) with a used indicator, that would get ya adsb out and a Waas /G capes. The labor will be involved insofar as it involves a xponder wiring and gps navigator wiring, but then again such would be the case for a stand alone xnpdr replacement to your current one.

Me being the anti-certified avionics guy I am, another option would be probably find a working copy of the xponder you have already, on ebay or the like for cheap, and keep on trucking. Slap a tailbeacon or skybeacon and be done with it. In that configuration I would install a GPS 175 with a used indicator instead of the all in one 375. Done.

All these are navigator only installations (wrt nav and comm capes, I'm dismissing the xpnder cape of the 375), relying on your existing comm capes. For a replacement comm capability if you're gonna yank a nav/comm to put the gps in but want to preserve at least the comm function, an option would be looking at the GNC 355, and the additional labor involved into tapping onto the audio panel. Then going 335 or 345, or cheap out like me and incorporate the transponder plan of option 2 above.

Of the three, I'd of course choose option 2 (old xponder on ebay, sky/tail-beacon + GPS 175 and indicator) , but you're probably better served by option 1 (375 + indicator) even though I personally don't prefer it. Option 3 or anything more robust than that will quickly run away in cost. Good luck.
 
If it has the original avionics the radios are probably illegal to use.
 
I like option #1. I did take the panel into consideration with the aircraft but I still dont want to spend a fortune on avionics because I see it can get expensive very quickly.
 
jd21476 said:
I just bought a 1959 Piper Comanche and I believe it has all the original avionics. I want to upgrade to more modern stuff but prices are outrageous. The transponder is inop and it will need ADS-B. I like the GTN 750 but the price is out of my range. I also looked at a Garmin 695/696 but Id like something I can mount in the panel.
Click to expand...

It might be somewhat helpful to know the make/model of your inop transponder.
This is what I would like, anyone have some cost effective options:

IFR (I plan on getting my IFR so this would be nice)
ADS-B in & out
Weather
Terrain
Moving maps (Similar to GNS430 or 530)
Something that looks good.
Click to expand...
GTX375 has:
  • IFR
  • ADS-B in & out
  • Weather
  • Terrain
  • Moving maps
  • Good looks (well, a screen with higher DPI than a GTN650 or GTN750 anyway)
So I think that will cover you.
 
What does it currently have? If it has a digital flip-flop nav/com or 2, and a busted transponder, I would go for the GNX375. You can't add approach GPS and ADS-B for cheaper.

But if it has KX170B radios, I would budget to upgrade at least to one digital comm. If it has a KT76A or C, I would look at the Trig "Express Lane" with a GNX355.

Either way, I would start calling shops now, and consider buying a tail beacon, installing it fi you fly anywhere that needs ADS-B
 
Rules here require that you post pictures (GOOD pictures) of the plane!

That’ll help, anyway, in counseling a panel strategy.
 
GNX-375 is a given. Everything else depends on what's there. Plan on updating the audio panel. Everything connects to it and you'll have to upgrade it to upgrade anything else.
 
I guess one of my considerations as well is that my Grumman has a Garmin 400 in it currently. I am going to sell the plane so is it more feasible to pull the Garmin and put it in my Comanche along with the KX155 that I have.

I know the Grumman is more valuable with the Garmin in it but I dont know if I would get the value out of leaving it in and then buying new stuff for the new plane
 
Wait, you're going to pay for replacement avionics in your plane, labor to install them, labor to take them out and a lower resale value in the plane you're selling? That doesn't sound like you will save yourself any money at all.
 
Considering the installation costs, the existing value of the 400 install, and the cost of the new Garmin GNX series, I would not move the 400 to the Commanche if it is not WAAS enabled.

But if it is WAAS, you can use it as a position source with a Mode S transponder.
 
Personally, I feel the additional value of WAAS in the GNX175 would justify the added cost vs the loss of value plus the cost of removing it from the Grumman.
 
The Garmin 375 is an obvious, affordable solution for IFR GPS and ADSB in/out. You will also need a CDI unless you are also installing G5s or similar. An audio panel is probably also going to be on your list. If you have any money left, a second NAV/COM with VOR/LOC/ILS would be desirable so you have ground based NAV backup. That would give you an efficient, capable IFR rig. Options involving a GPS/COM will be more expensive.

Given the labor investment required to install your equipment and get it to work together, it may not be very cost effective to install legacy equipment. Plus, that legacy equipment may not be compatible with future equipment advances you might consider, like a 2 axis autopilot.
 
Is the Garmin 696 IFR certified? I have a friend that has that along with a panel mount kit in his Cessna and it looks nice and works well. The price seems good.
 
jd21476 said:
Is the Garmin 696 IFR certified? I have a friend that has that along with a panel mount kit in his Cessna and it looks nice and works well. The price seems good.
Click to expand...

It's a portable so I think not.
Good for backup and meets the EFB requirements though.
 
jd21476 said:
They make a dash mount for it and it wires into the plane.
Click to expand...

That's just a clip in holder, and when you say "wires into the plane" I expect you mean it runs off ship's power...and that's it. It does not meet the criteria as an approved IFR navigator.

I think the aforementioned Garmin 375 is a good solution if you need ADSB Out
 
That is disappointing that it does not meet the IFR certification for the plane because it is affordable. Why is it that everything that meets IFR certification starts at about $6k and up when it seems that the 696 does essentially the same job.
 
jd21476 said:
That is disappointing that it does not meet the IFR certification for the plane because it is affordable. Why is it that everything that meets IFR certification starts at about $6k and up when it seems that the 696 does essentially the same job.
Click to expand...

That you will have to take up with your friendly local FAA representative...
 
jd21476 said:
That is disappointing that it does not meet the IFR certification for the plane because it is affordable. Why is it that everything that meets IFR certification starts at about $6k and up when it seems that the 696 does essentially the same job.
Click to expand...
Certification isn't free, or cheap
 
So I am not currently IFR licensed anyway so I think for now I will got with a 696 with a dash mount and use the KX155 that I currently have. I can then add the ADS-B and call it a day. Then after I sell my other plane I can go the Garmin 375 or GTN 650 route and that will be about the time when I can start on my IFR anyway.
 
jd21476 said:
So I am not currently IFR licensed anyway so I think for now I will got with a 696 with a dash mount and use the KX155 that I currently have. I can then add the ADS-B and call it a day. Then after I sell my other plane I can go the Garmin 375 or GTN 650 route and that will be about the time when I can start on my IFR anyway.
Click to expand...

Sounds like a sensible approach. :thumbsup:
 
jd21476 said:
So I am not currently IFR licensed anyway so I think for now I will got with a 696 with a dash mount and use the KX155 that I currently have. I can then add the ADS-B and call it a day. Then after I sell my other plane I can go the Garmin 375 or GTN 650 route and that will be about the time when I can start on my IFR anyway.
Click to expand...

I see on another thread @ktup-flyer traded his 696 for an iPad. Unless you already own a 696 might be worth querying him why. And what application he is running (Garmin Pilot, Foreflight, or?). Might be more cost effective than the 696?
 
jd21476 said:
So I am not currently IFR licensed anyway so I think for now I will got with a 696 with a dash mount and use the KX155 that I currently have.
Click to expand...
696 is 2008. The aera 660 is much more recent (albeit with a smaller screen).

Also, the panel dock is from Air Gizmos: http://www.airgizmos.com

696_side.jpg


660-beauty.jpg
 
What is the picture on the bottom? Is that the iPad docking station?
 
Oh I see it is the iPad panel dock. So your saying instead of the 696 just buy an iPad and the panel dock for it.
 
jd21476 said:
Oh I see it is the iPad panel dock. So your saying instead of the 696 just buy an iPad and the panel dock for it.
Click to expand...

I suggest you look into an iPad and compare with the 696. Many of us are running iPad applications like Foreflight or Garmin Pilot, and there's a number of others that are less expensive, but seem to have significant followings here for VFR navigation and IFR backup purposes.
 
jd21476 said:
Oh I see it is the iPad panel dock. So your saying instead of the 696 just buy an iPad and the panel dock for it.
Click to expand...

The bottom picture is of an Aera 660 with a panel dock. Superb unit. Then again, probably cheaper to buy an iPad and foreflight or garmin pilot (or fltplan go, which js free)


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk
 
frtrkap said:
The bottom picture is of an Aera 660 with a panel dock. Superb unit.
Click to expand...
aera 660 is 8 years newer than the 696. Moore's Law would hold that 8 years newer is 16 times better.
 
GRG55 said:
I see on another thread @ktup-flyer traded his 696 for an iPad. Unless you already own a 696 might be worth querying him why. And what application he is running (Garmin Pilot, Foreflight, or?). Might be more cost effective than the 696?
Click to expand...
Still have the 696 for now, much sell, but the only thing I lost was XM weather and music. I run ForeFlight and can hook the ipad up to the audio panel and listen to music. I'll get more capability once my GNX375 gets put in, too.
 
You can wire the 696 up to ships power. Mine is wired in for audio and power
 
These are all very good reasonable options for now while I save for a GNX375 or GTN650
 
jd21476 said:
Is the Garmin 696 IFR certified? I have a friend that has that along with a panel mount kit in his Cessna and it looks nice and works well. The price seems good.
Click to expand...

A 696 does not meet TSO requirements for IFR. For situational awareness you can do whatever you want. I use a hardwired AERA 510 as an alternate WX source and as an emergency GPS backup. It automatically loads the current flight plan from the GNS430W.
 
Last edited:
jd21476 said:
That is disappointing that it does not meet the IFR certification for the plane because it is affordable. Why is it that everything that meets IFR certification starts at about $6k and up when it seems that the 696 does essentially the same job.
Click to expand...

IFR certified GPS units must meet either TSO 129 or 146 requirements for accuracy, update rate, integrity checking and annunciation, WAAS (for TSO 146) etc. While quite capable, the 696 and other VFR-only GPS units do not meet these standards. Most IFR installations will also require an external CDI within a certain distance of the primary instruments.
 
Ever done any wiring before? You could go with a 175 and a nos Navworx, use the 175 as the position source to meet the AD and install them yourself under supervision. Waas navigator and ads -b in and out for less than $5k.
 
Personally, I'd prefer having at least 1 single box GPS/NAV/COM like the 650. I like the consistency of using the same interface and indicator (whatever that is - CDI/HSI/Laser Ring) when I'm in the soup. If that isn't an option, and you are happy to continue using an orange radio for your ILS approaches, then the 375 is definitely the way to go here.
 
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