What should I go with here?

Discussion in 'Avionics and Upgrades' started by CameronS, Jan 8, 2017.

  1. CameronS

    CameronS Filing Flight Plan

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    Hi all,

    I am about to have my plane go into the avionics shop for upgrades. I plan on taking out my Cessna ARC units and installing:

    1. PS Engineering PMA-8000B Audio Panel

    2. Garmin 430AW

    3. Bendix King KX 155

    4. Flightstream 210

    Now, here's where I'd like some feedback...

    I was originally going to install a KI 206 for the 430AW, and a KI 209A for the KX 155. However, I found a reasonable price on a Garmin 106A and purchased it, so now I'm going to need to make some decisions on these other nav heads.

    Should I stick the KI 206 with my KX 155 (can you even do this?), or should I sell it and stick with the KI 209A?

    I'm learning as I go here. This is my first airplane and I haven't had it long, but I'm enjoying the learning process.

    Thanks for any feedback! :)

    As an aside, I have a Stratus ESG ADS-B transponder already installed, along with the ADS-B in solution they offer with it. In hindsight I probably should have gone with a Garmin 345, but I will say I do like the ESG quite a bit, and the flight logging is a cool feature of the Stratus 2S that I enjoy. If I had gone 345, would it have been able to utilized the 430AW's GA 35 antennae, or would it have had to have its own dedicated GPS source separate of the 430?
     
  2. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    The KI206 will not work with a KX155.

    KX155 w/GS -
    • KI-204 VOR/LOC/Glideslope Indicator
    • KI-209 VOR/LOC/Glideslope Indicator
    • KI-209A GPS/VOR/LOC/Glideslope Indicator
    KX155 w/o GS -
    • KI-203 VOR/LOC Indicator
    • KI-208 VOR/LOC Indicator
    • KI-208A GPS/VOR/LOC Indicator

    KX165 w/GS -
    • King KI-206 GPS/VOR/LOC/Glideslope Indicator
    • King KNI-520 GPS/VOR/LOC/Glideslope Indicator
    • King KI-525/525A HSI (part of a KCS-55/55A system)
    KX165 w/o GS
    • King KI-202 GPS/VOR/LOC Indicator

    With a 430W you would not need to get the GTX345 w/GPS which is about $700 more than the GTX-345 w/o GPS. Transponder does not need its own GPS antenna if position source is provided by the 430W.

    Does the Stratus have a GPS antenna? If so perhaps the stratus can get data from the 430w and the 430w may be able to use that existing antenna.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2017
  3. GRG55

    GRG55 Cleared for Takeoff

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    The Garmin 345 transponder can use the GNS 430 as its position source (but the 430 must be a WAAS unit). You do not need to buy the optional internal GPS for the 345 in that case.

    Sounds like its going to be a nice airplane as you gradually upgrade it. What type?
     
  4. CameronS

    CameronS Filing Flight Plan

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    Thanks for the thorough message! I guess I'm keeping the 209A then and selling my 206 w/ 8130. :)

    Figures! With the 430AW I guess this would have been the wiser move, but at the time I installed the Stratus ESG I didn't know I was going to go the 430AW path. My old ARC transponder took a crap mid flight to Miami two days after purchasing the plane, so I guess I was in a rush to make a move and the avionics shop was willing to do the whole hardware and install for $3495...that brought it down to $2995 with rebate. I guess I either have to swallow some pride and move to the 345, or allow them to install two WAAS antennas on top of my plane. :(

    It's a 1983 Cessna 172P. So far I've had new control wheels, the Stratus ESG, and a JPI fuel totalizer installed. This next phase with all the stuff I listed above will likely get installed in the next couple weeks. I just need to think this Stratus vs 345 situation through.
     
  5. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    Since Appareo doesn't post interconnect drawings or installation manuals its tough to make an educated decision about how it will or will not play with the 430w. Google was inconclusive.

    Maybe the 430w could be wired to the ESG, then the existing GPS antenna coax disconnected from the transponder and connected to the 430w.

    Next thing to address would be compatibility of that antenna and the 430w if the above is possible.
     
  6. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Line Up and Wait

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    If you have not purchased the units I would go with a garmin nav/com over the 155. The 155 is a great unit, I have two of them, but they are an old design and getting harder to get repaired, and the display is outrageous to replace.

    Bob
     
  7. CameronS

    CameronS Filing Flight Plan

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    Hi Bob, the 430AW, KI 209A, KI206, and 155 all came in a bundled package. For the price I got a great deal and may as well use what I have already. Interestingly I have some off the record info that TKM will be announcing a slide in replacement for the 155 soon. Maybe that would be a logical route if my 155 goes down the tubes.
     
  8. DesertNomad

    DesertNomad Line Up and Wait

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    Which unit would you suggest? I am getting ready to do some panel upgrades and may get rid of my 155.
     
  9. hotprops

    hotprops Pre-takeoff checklist

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    ki204
     
  10. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Line Up and Wait

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    If upgrading now, I would go with a gnc255
     
  11. Axtel4

    Axtel4 Pre-Flight

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    > Since Appareo doesn't post interconnect drawings or installation manuals its tough to make an educated decision about how it will or will not play with the 430w.

    According to this list, the internal position source is the only one certified for the Appareo unit:

    https://www.faa.gov/nextgen/equipadsb/equipment/
     
  12. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    I'd have a hard time spending money on GNC225 and then hooking it to a KI209. You don't gain much with GNC225 over the KX155.

    I'd have spend that money on GTN650 after selling the 430w.
     
  13. unsafervguy

    unsafervguy Line Up and Wait

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    what you gain with the gnc255 over the kx155 is the ability to get it worked on. the kx-155 is getting old and getting harder and more expensive to get repaired. if the display goes out, hang on the part is over 1amu, closer to 2amu's im told. I have one in the shop right now, and im not sure it will be cost effective to fix it or just by a used one. my post was about the nav/com vs nav/com i would go with a wass com/gps before the nav/com.

    bob
     
  14. simtech

    simtech Cleared for Takeoff

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    Just talked about this on another forum. While yes its kind of expensive you are basically getting a new unit with a new LED display which will last a LONG time. I love the 155, it is simple to use and sounds great. Id keep it going for as long as you can.

    https://www.bendixking.com/V3/Promotions/Your-Favorite-Radio-Just-Got-Better!
     
  15. simtech

    simtech Cleared for Takeoff

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    good greif...the link I posted...make sure to add the ! at the end as the link does not have that linked in. ugh!
     
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  16. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    The same thing could be said for the future of the 430w. I'm a younger pilot and not looking to switch planes anytime soon so the GTN650 made sense to me.

    I missed the opportunity to fix a GNC-250XL. I looked up the cost, balked, and when I was ready to cave they were no longer repairing them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017
  17. bnt83

    bnt83 Final Approach

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    Does the KX155 you have look like a good one or one that was built in the late 70s full of dirt or fell into a lake? There are a lot of older unit out there that haven't aged well.

    Was it made by King Radio Corp, Allied Signal or Honeywell?

    My KN53 has a Honeywell tag on it, looks like brand new but the photocell was bad it in. That was $200 to fix.

    If panel space is an issue a GNC225 might be the solution
     
  18. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-Flight

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    Hello, Cameron. I just completed Phase One of a fairly significant upgrade myself and have some thoughts for you regarding your upgrade.

    For context, I am fresh off the install of a Garmin G5, Garmin GTN 650, GTX345 and Flightstream 510. I am planning a PS Engineering PMA 450A in the next couple of months. If and when a Garmin G5 HSI is released I will install that also. Then in the distant future, when my KX-155 w/ GS dies, I'll finally upgrade the second navcom.


    I have done a fair amount of research on audio panels and kept coming back to either the 8000B or the 450. Hard to go wrong with either one; personal preference. Initially I wanted a Garmin GMA350 but the overwhelming response from the community of owners out there was to go with PS.

    I upgraded from a KLN-94 and considered a 430W. I decided not to because the price delta between the 430W and the GTN 650 just didn't warrant going with such an old GPS. Still very capable, yes, but criminy, these things are gonna be two decades old pretty soon. There seems to be a price premium on the 430Ws at the moment as there was a lot of consternation out there about Garmin going with touchscreen displays. I like the GTN650 a lot, however, and it supports the Flightstream 510 (more on that in a moment.)

    I had two of these (now one) and they were and still are great radios. My KX-155 still looks new, mostly, and is 13 years old! Again, though, they're getting long in the tooth. Perhaps it's a value proposition for you and in that case I understand, however if you're looking for a newer navcom I would suggest the GNC255. I'm leaning toward that myself down the road; but since the KX-155 still works great I can't really justify replacing it right now.

    The Flightstream 510 is the latest and greatest, doesn't have any installation cost associated with it (you just slide it into the GTN650/750) and offers additional expansion capabilities beyond the 210. I'd be careful about spending a lot of coin on a suite which is just now starting to get passed over for more modern designs which are less expensive to install and maintain. For only a bit more you could move into a 650/Flightstream 510.

    I don't know if it could use the 430Ws antenna, but I think so. My GTX345 uses the GTN650's WAAS source info.

    I almost went with the Stratus ESG myself. That was my starting point: Garmin G5 + Stratus ESGi. But I was offered a great price on a slightly used GTN650, so I decided to take the plunge and update to WAAS at the same time. Once I made that decision, the integration between the GTX345 and the GTN650 became attractive, not to mention a homogenized brand panel. That's how I ended up with all this Garmin stuff in my panel.

    I hemmed and hawed a very long time about the 430W vs. the 650, but in the end I feel I made the right decision. Once you add up the installation costs and everything else the delta between the two units is minimal, and you'll be moving into the latest generation of Garmin navigators with enhanced capabilities such as the ability to run the Flightstream 510. The installation cost is NOT insignificant. You have to think about just what you're sliding into your panel when you go with old generation navcoms.

    As a final note, I taught the 430 and 530 extensively (G1000 as well) and find the 650 to be superior in every way. It's so simple and intuitive it barely requires reading the manual, although I still recommend you do, of course.
     
  19. bradg33

    bradg33 Line Up and Wait

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    IIRC, the 510 doesn't offer AHRS output to an iPad. So if you want that "extra" backup in the event your AI takes a crap, you'll still need a Stratus or GDL39 to feed the iPad AHRS data.
     
  20. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-Flight

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    The Flightstream 510 is simply a wifi/bluetooth bridge between the 650/750 and portable devices. Since the 650/750 Navigator series doesn't have an internal AHRS built into it, certainly the 510 wouldn't be transmitting any such data.

    I get AHRS data from the GTX345 via bluetooth to two iPads. I have to admit I rarely look at the ADI presentation on the iPad. It's a 'nice to have' but not 'need to have' for me. I already have backup ADIs in the panel. I understand that for some it may be considered a very useful tool.
     
  21. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-Flight

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    Sorry Brad, I just realized that I completely missed your point: the Flightstream 210 DOES have AHRS built into it. So that would be an advantage over the 510, yes. I didn't quite process what you were getting at there. My apologies.
     
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  22. CameronS

    CameronS Filing Flight Plan

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    Ryan,

    Thanks for your post!

    In the end, it's hard to say that the 650 would be an easier decision for me simply because I received a Garmin 430AW (16 watt comm), KX 155A (glideslope), and a KI 209 for $7500. I was able to get the PMA 8000B for a whopping $600...wiring and tray, etc all done.

    The Flightstream 210 is going to run me $800...not a bad deal. So, in the end I'm talking $8,900 for all I have mentioned above. Considering the cost of a GTN 650 being roughly $9,745 alone, I'm not sure how I could even begin to see it as feasible...especially considering that while the 430 is an older unit, it is practically just as capable...and an iPad further enhances it!

    Keep an eye on TKM. They will be announcing a hot-swap unit for the KX-155 soon.
     
  23. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-Flight

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    Assuming no misprints (did you say $600 for a PMA 8000B and $7500 for the 430W, KX-155A and KI209?) that is an absolutely incredible deal. Do not pass go! Used 430Ws go for up to $7k alone right now.

    Definitely stick with that.

    No, I wouldn't do it either. I'd stick with the 430W for that price. I'm really pleased with my deal, I got the G5, GTN650 and GTX345 installed for right around $16000, including my trade-ins (which weren't worth that much, to be honest.)

    Great - will do!
     
  24. CameronS

    CameronS Filing Flight Plan

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    No misprints! That was truly my cost, and again, it's an AW unit, which is worth more than standard 'W'. I have seen them go up to $8500. I also ended up with an 8130'd KI 206 for $1035, but ultimately decided on the Garmin 106A for $1528.

    It does sounds like a great deal for your setup. Congrats! I will be going with a G5 as well (it's on order). How do you like yours?

    I'm going to go ahead and yank out my newly installed Stratus ESG and swap to the 345 now. The shop is going to give it for $4600 installed (non GPS version), so hopefully I can find a buyer for a 3 week old Stratus ESG relatively quickly. I actually prefer the looks of the ESG, but the 345 has better integration with my GPS as much as I dislike the look compared to Stratus.
     
  25. Ryan F.

    Ryan F. Pre-Flight

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    I went through the exact same thought process (except I changed my mind before installing the Stratus, luckily.)

    I do like the GTX345. It's nice to have traffic and weather integrated on the GTN650, and it's a really solid little unit. You don't have to think about it much, it just works. I think it'll ultimately hold its value a bit more than the Stratus units, which I also like by the way.

    I like the G5 very much. I initially had a problem with the unit giving an incorrect attitude indication at certain power settings which I (believe) has been rectified by the new v.2.60 software update. It's like a mini PFD with airspeed, altitude, an altitude alterter, V-speeds on a banded-color tape, etc. For the price it's awfully hard to beat.