What plane would you choose for this mission?

I've sold stuff on Craigslist sans public phone number. Very pleasant experiences actually, I wouldn't hesitate to do it again.
 
Everskyward said:
I give my personal cell phone number out to passengers all the time but that seems different than posting it on CL. :rofl:
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You can find (one of my) phone numbers (maybe two) all over the Internet if you look...

My phone has this really cool feature that mutes the ringer if you don't feel like answering it... and I only answer numbers I don't recognize if I have time to do so.

Custom ring-tones make it even easier... the boss gets the Imperial March from The Empire Strikes Back, for example. ;)
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Price it at $95000. Let us know when it sells.
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It's not even currently advertised, I'm not in a rush to part with it. If I still own it in 20 years I'll still own the sexiest plane built since WWII and it will still bring me pleasure to look at.
 
steingar said:
I collect watches. They fit in a little case or safe deposit box if made out of gold. A friend collects model aircraft. They fit on a shelf.

There are people who collect aircraft. They are vanishingly few in number, and I imagine are mostly not in the market for a blinged-out 310. The smaller the market, the greater your waiting time. I suspect the wait for the collector who will want your 310 is greater than your life span. The wait for a pilot who might is somewhat less.

The other thing that operates against you is in a decade all those avionics could be pretty old hat compared to the new stuff.
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I can't fly a watch or a model, I can fly my plane. It was just good fortune that this particular plane came along. I would have put the same panel in any plane I would have bought for the purpose of traveling because I consider it the minimums for safe conduct of flight.
 
and the little dog laughed to see such sport . . .
Henning said:
My entire cost of maint and repair in 1 year / 100 hours operations was <$1000.

There's some real numbers by a conservative operator.
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wabower said:
and the little dog laughed to see such sport . . .
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Nice scorecard for the sport. Honestly I have some seals to replace due to long storage time in a desert hangar, but it's still going fine and can be resolved for <$4k.
 
Henning said:
Nice scorecard for the sport. Honestly I have some seals to replace due to long storage time in a desert hangar, but it's still going fine and can be resolved for <$4k.
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$1,000 for 100 hours of flying in a 310 doesn't include the avionics upgrades, nor does it cover the engine reserves for that time period. It definitely doesn't cover reserves for paint or interior.

As you know, planes tend to have big expenses at particular times in their lives. Your plane has beautiful paint, a nice interior, low-time engines. You dumped a bunch of money into the panel. In another 10 years, maybe sooner, you will probably need to do again to keep up with the "minimum safe." At probably about the same time period, you'll need to dump a bunch of money into the new engines, too. If you want to make it even better and do the Colemill Executive II upgrade for a pair of 550s (which, by the way, is a very nice upgrade), then you're looking at about $130k instead of about $70k.

Of course, you know all this. This is more for edification of others who may not.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
$1,000 for 100 hours of flying in a 310 doesn't include the avionics upgrades, nor does it cover the engine reserves for that time period. It definitely doesn't cover reserves for paint or interior.

As you know, planes tend to have big expenses at particular times in their lives. Your plane has beautiful paint, a nice interior, low-time engines. You dumped a bunch of money into the panel. In another 10 years, maybe sooner, you will probably need to do again to keep up with the "minimum safe." At probably about the same time period, you'll need to dump a bunch of money into the new engines, too. If you want to make it even better and do the Colemill Executive II upgrade for a pair of 550s (which, by the way, is a very nice upgrade), then you're looking at about $130k instead of about $70k.

Of course, you know all this. This is more for edification of others who may not.
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That ain't edifying at all. :D
 
Ted DuPuis said:
$1,000 for 100 hours of flying in a 310 doesn't include the avionics upgrades, nor does it cover the engine reserves for that time period. It definitely doesn't cover reserves for paint or interior.

As you know, planes tend to have big expenses at particular times in their lives. Your plane has beautiful paint, a nice interior, low-time engines. You dumped a bunch of money into the panel. In another 10 years, maybe sooner, you will probably need to do again to keep up with the "minimum safe." At probably about the same time period, you'll need to dump a bunch of money into the new engines, too. If you want to make it even better and do the Colemill Executive II upgrade for a pair of 550s (which, by the way, is a very nice upgrade), then you're looking at about $130k instead of about $70k.

Of course, you know all this. This is more for edification of others who may not.
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I just looked at a 2005 Baron B58 with about 800 TT. For all of the last 5 years, the annuals alone were $10K or more. I just can't imagine flying any twin for $1,000 a year in maintenance. One oil change is going to be $600.

What am I missing?
 
Henning said:
I can't fly a watch or a model, I can fly my plane. It was just good fortune that this particular plane came along. I would have put the same panel in any plane I would have bought for the purpose of traveling because I consider it the minimums for safe conduct of flight.
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You can't tell time with an airplane, carry it in your pocket nor keep it on a shelf in the office. It has expenses for housing, and has to be flown periodically to stay airworthy. Hence it is a very poor collectible.

On the other hand, for something you keep around and use for your travel, it is very good indeed, though it seems like a lot of plane to ferry one person around.
 
steingar said:
You can't tell time with an airplane,
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Yes I can. All the planes I fly have clocks in them, plus the GPS knows what time it is if the clock stops working.
 
If an owner is lucky beyond measure, $10k/yr might pay for some years. For others, it could easily be 2x. I flew a 421C for ~2 years for chicken feed, but didn't ever kid myself into thinking it would last. I then sold it and moved to Dallas where I had ownership and access to other planes. Unfortunately, one of them was an almost-new Aerostar that ate our lunch many times over. ANFL when twins are part of the equation. Big singles can be pricey as well.

Alexb2000 said:
I just looked at a 2005 Baron B58 with about 800 TT. For all of the last 5 years, the annuals alone were $10K or more. I just can't imagine flying any twin for $1,000 a year in maintenance. One oil change is going to be $600.

What am I missing?
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Ted DuPuis said:
Yes I can. All the planes I fly have clocks in them, plus the GPS knows what time it is if the clock stops working.
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Can't just look at it and know what time it is, unlike my watches. Moreover, you can't put it in your pocket and know what time it at the office.

Henning keeps referring to his 310 as a "collectible". I've been trying to point out that collectible things are often smallish and usually maintenance free. There are airplane collectors to be certain, but not many, and I doubt any would be interested in Henning's 310. Lots of pilots might, but I doubt they'll shell out that much for a 310 when others can be had for far less.

I didn't exactly see you jumping at it, for example.
 
wabower said:
If an owner is lucky beyond measure, $10k/yr might pay for some years. For others, it could easily be 2x. I flew a 421C for ~2 years for chicken feed, but didn't ever kid myself into thinking it would last. I then sold it and moved to Dallas where I had ownership and access to other planes. Unfortunately, one of them was an almost-new Aerostar that ate our lunch many times over. ANFL when twins are part of the equation. Big singles can be pricey as well.
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Good summary.

I figure that an Aztec/310/Baron costs about $10k/year before you start the engines. That's just hangar, insurance, and annual.

steingar said:
Can't just look at it and know what time it is, unlike my watches. Moreover, you can't put it in your pocket and know what time it at the office.
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Well, if I look at the back of my watch I can't tell what time it is, either. You have to look in the right place.

If I use the nail-removing end of my hammer to try to drive in nails or vice versa, it won't work very well, either.

Henning keeps referring to his 310 as a "collectible". I've been trying to point out that collectible things are often smallish and usually maintenance free. There are airplane collectors to be certain, but not many, and I doubt any would be interested in Henning's 310. Lots of pilots might, but I doubt they'll shell out that much for a 310 when others can be had for far less.
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Things that are collectible to you are perhaps smallish and usually maintenance-free. I once knew people who, in their "small garage" had 20 cars. Among the collection included 14 Ferraris, 2 Mercedes 300 SL gullwings, some BMW racecar from the 80s, and a Shelby Cobra previously belonging to Steve McQueen.

Obviously, their budget was different than yours or mine. They had something on the order of 20 or 30 more, with a staff to keep the cars running. For what those cars were worth combined just in that garage, I could happily live the rest of my life.

I didn't exactly see you jumping at it, for example.
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I'm not a collector of airplanes, though, so I wouldn't apply. I use them as tools. As such, I buy the tool that fits my needs, use it until it doesn't fit my needs, and then get rid of it accordingly. Henning's 310 doesn't fit my needs, so I wouldn't buy it.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
$1,000 for 100 hours of flying in a 310 doesn't include the avionics upgrades, nor does it cover the engine reserves for that time period. It definitely doesn't cover reserves for paint or interior.

As you know, planes tend to have big expenses at particular times in their lives. Your plane has beautiful paint, a nice interior, low-time engines. You dumped a bunch of money into the panel. In another 10 years, maybe sooner, you will probably need to do again to keep up with the "minimum safe." At probably about the same time period, you'll need to dump a bunch of money into the new engines, too. If you want to make it even better and do the Colemill Executive II upgrade for a pair of 550s (which, by the way, is a very nice upgrade), then you're looking at about $130k instead of about $70k.

Of course, you know all this. This is more for edification of others who may not.
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Correct, however, my reserves on my 2 IO 470s is not different from any 180 kt 210's single turbocharged 520, and they will go through a set of cylinders or two between overhauls where I will not. My propensity to operate my new engines at 50-60% power way LOP will also make me more likely to go beyond TBO than those 210s cruising 180kts. You have a very large range of discretion in operational and ownership costs that you can affect with your quadrant hand.
 
Henning said:
You have a very large range of discretion in operational and ownership costs that you can affect with your quadrant hand.
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Truer words have never been spoken.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I'm not a collector of airplanes, though, so I wouldn't apply. I use them as tools. As such, I buy the tool that fits my needs, use it until it doesn't fit my needs, and then get rid of it accordingly. Henning's 310 doesn't fit my needs, so I wouldn't buy it.
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Luckily my annual 'ante' of ownership is no where near $10k, though I openly admit that I have an uncommon situation when it comes to being able to keep an airplane, one of the reasons I decided to go ahead and buy.

The two major expense upgrades the future will bring if I maintain ownership is Kelly hot pad deice and a pair of Diesels.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Things that are collectible to you are perhaps smallish and usually maintenance-free. I once knew people who, in their "small garage" had 20 cars. Among the collection included 14 Ferraris, 2 Mercedes 300 SL gullwings, some BMW racecar from the 80s, and a Shelby Cobra previously belonging to Steve McQueen.

Obviously, their budget was different than yours or mine. They had something on the order of 20 or 30 more, with a staff to keep the cars running. For what those cars were worth combined just in that garage, I could happily live the rest of my life.
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Old girlfriend lived with her folks, they collected. Had about a half dozen, no giant garage or staff though. Got to make it in the back of an antique Rolls Royce limo.

Thing is, the number of people collecting big things (cars, airplanes, cannons, etc...) are smaller in number than those collecting things like stamps and figurines. Hence your market is very different between the two. Again, the market for a collectible airplane is vanishingly small, there just aren't that many people with a place to put one.
 
Henning said:
Correct, however, my reserves on my 2 IO 470s is not different from any 180 kt 210's single turbocharged 520, and they will go through a set of cylinders or two between overhauls where I will not. My propensity to operate my new engines at 50-60% power way LOP will also make me more likely to go beyond TBO than those 210s cruising 180kts. You have a very large range of discretion in operational and ownership costs that you can affect with your quadrant hand.
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No doubt, the 470s are stout engines that will likely live long lives and serve you well overall vs. some of the more finicky engines out there. However, if you want to make an accurate evaluation of your true costs (or costs that anyone else could reasonably expect) then the engine reserves should be factored in, as well as avionics upgrades.

Henning said:
Luckily my annual 'ante' of ownership is no where near $10k, though I openly admit that I have an uncommon situation when it comes to being able to keep an airplane, one of the reasons I decided to go ahead and buy.
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Right, and that situation probably wouldn't be transferable to the next owner. It may be a bit on the high side, but anyone who's considering ownership would be well-advised to over-estimate costs than under-estimate. Chances are that, at worst, they'll be right high and you'll have extra cash.

The two major expense upgrades the future will bring if I maintain ownership is Kelly hot pad deice and a pair of Diesels.
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...which are not cheap.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
...which are not cheap.
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Nobody who thinks anything about flying can be done on the cheap should hold a medical for psychiatric reasons. For as little as it can be done for, it's never something I'd consider cheap.
 
Rotor&Wing said:
Who did the panel mod and the avionics install?
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Aviation Classics at Stead. They also took out 3 generations of boxes and bits as well as wiring. My plane lost over 200 pounds in the 2 months after I bought her:wink2:. They also did a first rate job on the panel. The Nulites just make its a real plane, and they're so cheap you can redo any panel for a few hours worth of flying cost, worth every dime if you fly at night.
 
A seller is entitled to classify his asset by use of whatever descriptive terms he chooses.

The market may or may not agree with any creative or self-serving terminology, however, and simply write the guy off a a crack-pot with a strange airplane in which he is upside down and delusional. In the case of a 50 y/o 310, the classification as a collectors item would be difficult to sell among the twin Cessna specialists that I chat with frequently, including the one who may be the most recognized name in the business.

He would tell you (as he has repeatedly told me) that the market for the old airplanes is very thin and worsening by the day due to fuel and maintenance costs, and with far more sellers than buyers. The stuff that's breaking now is getting more expensive to fix, and owners don't like the big bills. Airplanes with idiosyncratic equipment selection are a puzzle to the market, as
with Henning's fancy glass panel and no autopilot. Say what?
 
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Well, went by the airport in Cotulla this afternoon and I have to say the King Air and Baron that were sitting on the ramp sure looked good. My business partner kept asking me if I could fly them. Oh well, it is a goal.
 
A well built Cozy Mark 4 would do the job. 2 pax and bags or 4 pax, long trips no problems with fuel for 1000 miles, speeds well over 160k. on 9 GPH.

Find one :)
 
Well, I start the new job in Cotulla tomorrow. We will see how this driving down there works out.
 
I used a Midget Mustang as a commuter quite successfully, cheap and fast on a little gas, but they are very small and just one seat. Casuettes are also available cheap (around $10k for a decent flying copy). I'd also look at a Lancair 360 if I wanted 2 seats.
 
AUS to COT? T182T or T206H no doubt in my mind. I fly about the same route SAT-LRD as well as HBV over to CRP and down to the valley. I have owned Mooney, Cessna's, Pipers and have flown Bo's. The T206H was the best for the mission, hands down. I loved the Mooney speed but it just wasn't practical for ranch strips. Some say you will not notice the time difference but I certainly did on those same day roundtrips. I am now in a T182T (lured by the G1000) and I love it but I do occasionally miss the room in the 206. I flew it as a four seater with the back row out and had tons of cargo space. I feel that the 182 is more comfortable in the front than the 206. The 206 front seats are too close to the cabin wall. My only gripe about the 182 is the 2950 landing weight limit but I manage to live with it. Bottom line: I have never owned a plane that I didn't learn to love!

Bob
 
Well, after doing the drive numerous times and thinking a lot about it, I think I have it narrowed down to a Cessna 177B or a 182 of some type. I figure I can spend around $45k for a good 177B then upgrade as I figure out what I want. Now the hunt begins, not real fast since I had to buy a new truck. Ouch...
 
N2124v said:
Thanks guys! You have all just confirmed the direction I am heading. I love the 210 idea, but doubt it will be around when I am ready to pull the trigger. This will be probably 2-3times a week flight, with a once a month 350nm trip tossed in. Looks will matter b/c it is a real estate venture and I have to look the part of the land baron that I am trying to become. :)
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Ok. He said "land" and "baron" in the same sentence.



So maybe he should be looking to fly/land Barons?


It would give him room to grow.


And if not a Baron, wouldn't a nice S-35 Bonanza cover him in the looks department and outshine nearly any 210?
 
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