That's what I did but everybody calls me stupid. I'll take my ride over a 210 any day..., I think 10"wider cabin?
What plane would you choose for this mission?
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That's what I did but everybody calls me stupid. I'll take my ride over a 210 any day..., I think 10"wider cabin?
N2124v
Line Up and Wait
Will, I did the drive for the first time yesterday. Left Austin at 6am as a hellacious thunderstorm was passing of to the east, it took me 4 hours to go 134 miles. If I had been flying, I would have slept until 7, then blasted off 8ish, and still gotten here earlier.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
No one ever called you stupid for blinging out that aircraft, it's really nice. We all were wondering about the integrity of your neural net when you turned around and tried to sell it for a quarter million, though.
Ted
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wabower
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I think doubling down on the panel was the reason they called the white coats to give you a check-up from the neck up.
Ted
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It doesn't end up working that way when you compare true equivalents, which people rarely do. I think the number we had was about 30% higher when comparing equivalent aircraft. Still more, no doubt, but you can't compare a Comanche to an Aztec and expect to have anything reasonable. Just like you wouldn't compare a Prius to an Excursion.
dell30rb
Final Approach
Agreed.. I see very little sense in buying a twin unless you are flying commercially or absolutely needing 5+ seats. For doing a lot of night flying or flight in IMC with low ceilings the extra fan could save your life... but with the advent of airframe parachutes this becomes less of an issue. If your single fails in those conditions, pop the chute! I think the "save" rate for chutes deployed within the proper flight envelope is darn near 100%
I priced a BRS parachute for a C182 at 20k installed. You'll likely make that back in operating (maintenance + fuel) expenses over a twin in 2-3 years depending on how much you fly.
Actually I tried to sell it for $95k, a pretty fair price for a low time glass panel twin with new props and 150 & 350 on the engines in premium condition. I was offered $40k, that's same as calling me stupid so I changed the price price to $250k to respond "GFY" in kind.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
No, someone offered you the going price of your aircraft. You feel yours is worth more because of the bling, but the market disagrees. I could put the most modern avionics imaginable in my Cherokee, but I doubt that would make it worth anything more than a Cherokee, which ain't much.
I fly 180kts on 21 gph, that is not twice the fuel of a 210 but it is 20 kts faster with more room, range and payload. Plus I'm loafing along 2 engines at 50% power to do it rather than only one at 75%+ and I'm so lean all I get is a white dust in my exhaust and my CHTs stay <320. My entire cost of maint and repair in 1 year / 100 hours operations was <$1000. I had no problems that caused a delay of launch. However since I had more options and abilities than in a single I launched on several trips that I would not have in a single due to weather and the low altitudes I'd have to fly.
There's some real numbers by a conservative operator.
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Ted
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Where the OP is flying, this might make more sense... might. Primarily because he's flying over flatlands where the chute will probably leave him in a pretty good situation. Where I live, the chute will just leave you in trees where, hopefully, you survive. I don't want to wait the hours for the rescue crews to get to me. Doubly so when I'm over the Gulf of Mexico or wilderness areas in Canada. I carry my 406 PLB around anyway.
Flying during the daytime makes a bit of a difference, but in reality if you're over hostile terrain, the main difference is that you can see what you're about to hit instead of not see it. Synthetic vision will allow you to see the mountain you're about to fly into when your one engine quits.
Now, I'm the first to admit that if you don't fly much, then you're a fool to fly a twin and just assume it will save you. You need to be up to speed on OEI procedures and know what to do at any point in the flight when an engine fails. But if you're flying several times a week, then you shouldn't have this problem. For me, the more I fly, the less I want to fly in singles. Primarily because my exposure goes up, and I know that my luck is finite.
Right, yet to buy a current production plane with the same capabilities you have to spend more than a million dollars. The market is run by idiots, I choose not to play their game. I own a plane, they still have money, we both have what we want. If they want a plane with same capabilities, they will pay more for it.
steingar
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You are wise to do so. I couldn't understand why you wanted to sell such a fine aircraft in the first place.
Just how it is with airplanes right now. Probably won't last as the non-flying examples start heading to the junkyard or overseas.
BTW, how do you figure the "going price" of an aircraft that has no comps?
Because I have a greater use for an amphib, it can generate revenue in the short term. If I can't replace the 310 with one, there's no reason to let go of the 310 which will generate revenue in the long term.
RotorAndWing
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Like anything else, what the current market holds.
Right now comparable 310's when adjusted for options aren't bringing much, especially the very old models.
Everskyward
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Something is only worth what someone else will pay for it, right now. There is also the intangible worth that you place on it because it gives you usefulness or pleasure, but the two are not the same.
Find me a comp on the market that reveals your opinion.
BTW, NAAA calculator puts it over $97,000.
Ted
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True, but one person with a low-ball offer doesn't necessarily mean it's appropriate for the aircraft's value. I'd pay $100,000 for your Citation. Pretty sure the owners wouldn't sell it to me at that price.
Everskyward
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No, but even if you got it for $100,000 I think you would have problems with the operating costs. You could get quite a few dogs and cats in there, though. Especially if you removed the seats.True, but one person with a low-ball offer doesn't necessarily mean it's appropriate for the aircraft's value. I'd pay $100,000 for your Citation. Pretty sure the owners wouldn't sell it to me at that price.
Ted
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No, but even if you got it for $100,000 I think you would have problems with the operating costs. You could get quite a few dogs and cats in there, though. Especially if you removed the seats.
Right, and if you only have $40,000 to spend on a plane, then Henning's 310 would probably be more difficult to stomach for operating costs as well. Certainly the 310 that was donated to Cloud Nine, which is a wonderful plane, has still cost us money. We all know that, on these older planes especially, the purchase price is the cheapest part of the whole affair. I could buy a Lear 24 for $100,000 realistically, but I'm pretty sure that I'd be even worse off.
Point being, a lot of people give low-ball offers just to see if someone will take it. This is especially true if you see some aircraft brokers. I've been known to have negotiations that go something like this (not for aircraft, but same principle applies):
Me: "My price is $5,000, firm."
Guy: "Will you take $2,000?"
Me: "Again, my price is $5,000, firm."
Guy: "How about $2,200?"
Me: "Ok, $10,000."
Guy: "Wait, what?!"
Me: "Now you have to pay the '****ing me off' fee."
The market value and functional value only seem to cross in aircraft that have a high commercial application rate. Beavers, C 207, 402, T310R 421C... Seem to maintain their $ values because operators who need them to make a living compete for them. Usefulness though is not 'intangible', many issues can be assigned direct values such as time. Desire is the great intangible in the recreational aircraft market, so one has to play it like any collector market. Like any collector market, you need a prime collectible and patience to wait for your buyer.
Everskyward
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I'm probably too easy when it comes to selling things. I have the tendency to give it away just to get it off my hands.Right, and if you only have $40,000 to spend on a plane, then Henning's 310 would probably be more difficult to stomach for operating costs as well. Certainly the 310 that was donated to Cloud Nine, which is a wonderful plane, has still cost us money. We all know that, on these older planes especially, the purchase price is the cheapest part of the whole affair. I could buy a Lear 24 for $100,000 realistically, but I'm pretty sure that I'd be even worse off.
Point being, a lot of people give low-ball offers just to see if someone will take it. This is especially true if you see some aircraft brokers. I've been known to have negotiations that go something like this (not for aircraft, but same principle applies):
Me: "My price is $5,000, firm."
Guy: "Will you take $2,000?"
Me: "Again, my price is $5,000, firm."
Guy: "How about $2,200?"
Me: "Ok, $10,000."
Guy: "Wait, what?!"
Me: "Now you have to pay the '****ing me off' fee."
As far as airplanes go, I'm very wary of old, complex ones. Not because I think they're going to crash but because I've seen people sink a lot of money into them getting them up to speed and keeping them up to speed. I also don't have the twin bias. I don't feel uncomfortable at all getting into someone's small single. I think if I ever owned an airplane it would just be a low, slow toy, and I wouldn't think of it as serious transportation. But that is just me. I know others feel differently.
Right, different planes for different missions. I just don't know another plane that will do 3 mile a minute 02 free cruise cheaper, especially at the low altitudes I like.
Everskyward
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Just out of curiosity, what do you use your airplane for. Personal transportation? Charter?
RotorAndWing
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Price it at $95000. Let us know when it sells.
Ted
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You're the kind of person that I buy stuff from.
And that's the same reason a lot of other people are wary of old, complex aircraft. They have inherently more potential for issues caused by more parts to fail. For me, this is less of an issue. I buy them cheap enough that the cost ends up being something of a wash after I do the upgrades, and I enjoy the process of fixing something up and making it into what I want. I love seeing the 310 I fly go from the excellent plane it was when we got it to something that's even nicer and exactly how we want it.
Also, I agree that for something that's a low, slow toy, nothing wrong with a single. When you get out of the toy realm and into the tool realm is where it changes for me. Most of the people I know who have twins use them as tools. As an added point, toys tend to get used less than tools, and thus your risk exposure is less.
steingar
Taxi to Parking
I collect watches. They fit in a little case or safe deposit box if made out of gold. A friend collects model aircraft. They fit on a shelf.
There are people who collect aircraft. They are vanishingly few in number, and I imagine are mostly not in the market for a blinged-out 310. The smaller the market, the greater your waiting time. I suspect the wait for the collector who will want your 310 is greater than your life span. The wait for a pilot who might is somewhat less.
The other thing that operates against you is in a decade all those avionics could be pretty old hat compared to the new stuff.
Ted
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Henning's aircraft is in an interesting middle ground. As it is, it won't be a true tool for most pilots since it has no on-board radar and no de-ice. The avionics are a 9 out of 10, sure (for 10/10 I'd want to see a 530/430 combo rather than the 430/KX155A). Unlike the later 310s which still look new (in my opinion), his has the classic charm out of Sky King. It wouldn't fit my mission requirements simply due to the lack of radar and de-ice. But, I'm not interested in buying it, and neither are you. As such, our comments are irrelevant.
In the case of the OP, it might actually represent a reasonable option given where he lives as having a good compromise of speed, capability, and economy, with good looks and a minimal need (if any) for de-ice. Lack of radar is the main negative in the south for me, but that could be added if one was so inclined.
As he said, it's a matter of waiting for the right buyer.
Everskyward
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I have lots of furniture/furnishings in two different residences that I would let someone have for free just to cart it away.You're the kind of person that I buy stuff from.
I know, way OT.
I think I need to learn how to sell crap on the internet.
Alexb2000
En-Route
I think I need to learn how to sell crap on the internet.
What an experience that is. Having some stranger show up at your house at night, come in to look at your stuff, and about that time you realize on a normal day you might cross the street to avoid this person. Yet here they are in your living room.
I donate it, they even send a truck and pick it up. Done, and you get a deduction.
Ted
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I have lots of furniture/furnishings in two different residences that I would let someone have for free just to cart it away.
Certainly, there are circumstances in life that will modify the acceptable price of an item. That's usually how I get the best prices.
So?
I think I need to learn how to sell crap on the internet.
www.craigslist.org
Have fun
Everskyward
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Unfortunately I live out of the range of free donation trucks, I think, anyway, although I have boxed up and donated a lot of smaller items which I can drive to the collection centers. I was also thinking more about collectibles and antiques to sell on ebay where you don't meet the buyer in person.
Ted
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What I do is I make sure they understand that they must come with money and a truck to take it away. This works pretty well usually. While often times the buyers aren't people I'd expect to find in my neighborhood normally, they typically haven't caused problems.
denverpilot
Tied Down
I have lots of furniture/furnishings in two different residences that I would let someone have for free just to cart it away.
I know, way OT.
I think I need to learn how to sell crap on the internet.
Oh, if you want it gone... and I mean, quick... if you're giving something away for free, just put it on Craigslist.
I've put crap up there from my iPhone after taking a photo and sitting it at the curb... stuff I thought no one would want, and it was picked up in 30 minutes with 10 phone calls after that...
Use a phone number you can put a voice message on... "The item is gone. Thanks for your interest!"
Ted
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I never put my phone number on CL. Must eMail me first. If you're a real person, I'll then eMail you back. Since I have a BlackBerry, eMail is just as fast (usually faster) than a phone call.
denverpilot
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Everskyward
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I give my personal cell phone number out to passengers all the time but that seems different than posting it on CL.Heh... I'm a telco guy. I have a multitude of phone numbers.
