What makes for expensive annuals?

[Morne]

I've seen a couple of aircraft for sale that brag about how well maintained they are because they had to spend $100K on a recent annual. Example:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962...2648&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&forcev4exp=true

This isn't the only example, I saw another bragging about a $45K annual, and that apparently didn't include a major overhaul of the engines.

My question is, "What causes annuals to be so insanely pricy?"

I mean if you need to overhaul an engine then sure, that requires 5 digits right there. But other than that, how can things really get that out of hand? And honestly, why even bother with something like the linked aircraft? If my A&P tells me that my bird is gonna require $100K then it's going to get parted out and I'll be shopping for a new bird.

Restoring classic aircraft is another way, I suppose, but that's more about the love of an old and rare (or at least uncommon) bird than maintaining a utilitarian transportation vehicle.

What makes these annuals so dang pricy?

 

[Ted]

Sometimes it does include engines. $100k for an annual that includes a double engine overhaul, props, and a proper firewall forward job with other squawks can easily be in line. That said, we still spent a good bit less than that on our (very thorough) double engine overhaul and annual.

Otherwise, I do agree that it seems odd to invest that much money in repairs in most cases. You can have structural issues or the like where things go wrong. More than anything, if an annual is that high it tells me they probably haven't been maintaining the aircraft for a number of years, and are playing catch-up. They do it probably because they think the plane will somehow sell for more, and/or they don't want to admit the reality that maybe it's time for the scrap yard.

 

[steingar]

I wonder how much is due to new eyes. I recall an A&P examining our freshly annualed 150 and claiming it would need on the order of $10K worth of repairs before he felt it would be airworthy. Admittedly, many of his "repairs" sounded to me like restoration.

As far as I can tell, the aircraft is still being flown by the guy I sold it to.

 

[cirrusmx]

I also question the same thing when I see ads of 1960's spam cans on controller that sell for $30,000 and the seller claims they put in 40,000 dollars on MX/upgrades. It just doesnt make sense. Or better said, If I am a buyer I don't care how much money you have put on the plane I will only pay fair market value.

 

[DavidWhite]

Owning an airplane doesn't make sense. Between avionics upgrades and repairs the first year we put about 30k into my 172 - the Mooney is looking to be about the same.

The nice thing about having your own plane is that you can get it EXACTLY how you want it.

 

[Alexb2000]

Part of this is due to the difference in the way people maintain things. If you have a 40 year old aircraft it's going to cost some money IMO, even the new ones cost money. I looked at a very nice 1000TT 8 year old Baron with all the receipts, not one annual was less than $10k. I just don't believe when someone has an old bird for years and claims to have almost no repairs, just doesn't work that way unless you are deferring maintenance.

Same with cars, someone says just oil changes in 100k, I say here's a car that needs a lot of work.

 

[Tom-D]

Some body doesn't know the difference between inspections and maintenance.

 

[Alexb2000]

Some body doesn't know the difference between inspections and maintenance.

Tom-

I know you guys like to draw this distinction, to us owners it's just semantics. Most of us do our deferred maintenance or planned upgrades around annual time so we can use our plane the maximum time during the year. There may be a separate line item for the inspection and that's fine, it's still one large check us owners write.

 

[DavidWhite]

Tom-

I know you guys like to draw this distinction, to us owners it's just semantics. Most of us do our deferred maintenance or planned upgrades around annual time so we can use our plane the maximum time during the year. There may be a separate line item for the inspection and that's fine, it's still one large check us owners write.

Yup. I decided to do my annual during avionics upgrade time.

 

[John221us]

I had a bad pre-sale inspection (and I was a nube), so the catch up after my first annual was painful.

 

[Geico266]

Buy a newer airplane and the annuals won't eat you up.

I've never paid more than $1,000 for someone else to do an annual on my -10. When I do it under the supervision of an A&P it is $200. I do the work myself in between annuals.

Does not make sense to me to pay $30k for a slow 50 year old plane and spend $5k a year maintaining it. Buy a faster newer RV and enjoy the savings, and speed.

 

[docmirror]

I bought a very old, but good looking plane. I discounted the sales price by doing my own inspection and then having an expert back me up. If I had gone for the A&P alone annual, my costs would have been over $15k. I did much of it under supervision and found several after market places to get materials and I still paid about $7k on my first annual. However, I knew that going into the purchase and negotiated accordingly. The seller rejected my offer, and after a week called back and we negotiated what I thought was fair.

Things I replaced or repaired on the first annual: Cracked cyl/head, all pushrod tubes, prop bladder, manual fuel selector, left fuel bladder, both drain cocks, prop bolts(only one thread showing through, been like that for 20 years), cracked plate in nose gear well, cracked right windscreen, exhaust gaskets, intake gaskets, generator seal, side window plexi(too hazy for me), paint on elevators, paint on flaps, gear motor brushes, flap motor brushes(both below min length), nosegear bushings, nosegear strut seal, nose tire/tube, rudder interconnect rubber-band, door/window seals(just finished that, after annual), chafe tape, seat belts, GPS DB, comm radio display, and prolly some stuff I forgot.

All taken together would have been about $15k of parts and labor. Things were just let go. Sure, the engine only had 550 hours, and the prop was barely over 300, but things that weren't done when the engine was done had to be fixed.

The funny thing about the Baron in the ad is that he spent $100k on stuff, and didn't have the int refurbed? hmmmmmmmm

 

[Alexb2000]

Buy a newer airplane and the annuals won't eat you up.

I've never paid more than $1,000 for someone else to do an annual on my -10. When I do it under the supervision of an A&P it is $200. I do the work myself in between annuals.

Does not make sense to me to pay $30k for a slow 50 year old plane and spend $5k a year maintaining it. Buy a faster newer RV and enjoy the savings, and speed.

You just keep going there, it's impossible not to comment. You seem to be under the impression that people are born with some innate knowledge of aircraft and everyone has the tools to do the work. Maybe I'm just on another planet, but the concept that a dentist who can't change the oil in their Toyota is going to wake-up one day and build an aircraft in their garage, maintain it themselves, and fly it 3 miles up in the air with their whole family onboard seems nuts. Yes, for certain people with the tools, inclination, training, and patience it can make sense, but those people are the great minority.

 

[Geico266]

You just keep going there, it's impossible not to comment. You seem to be under the impression that people are born with some innate knowledge of aircraft and everyone has the tools to do the work. Maybe I'm just on another planet, but the concept that a dentist who can't change the oil in their Toyota is going to wake-up one day and build an aircraft in their garage, maintain it themselves, and fly it 3 miles up in the air with their whole family onboard seems nuts. Yes, for certain people with the tools, inclination, training, and patience it can make sense, but those people are the great minority.

Why do you keep going there? To exclude experimentals from the conversation of annual condition inspections is like putting your head in the sand. They are here to stay (and so am I )and saving aircraft owners a ton of maintenance costs weather they do the work or not.

If you don't have in tools or inclination have someone else do the work like I said in my post. The highest annual I have ever paid is $1,000 when I dropped the plane off.

 

[Alexb2000]

Why do you keep going there? To exclude experimentals from the conversation of annual condition inspections is like putting your head in the sand. They are here to stay (and so am I )and saving aircraft owners a ton of maintenance costs weather they do the work or not.

If you don't have in tools or inclination have someone else do the work like I said in my post. The highest annual I have ever paid is $1,000 when I dropped the plane off.

Do A&P's charge less to work on experimentals?

 

[Tom-D]

Why do you keep going there? To exclude experimentals from the conversation of annual condition inspections is like putting your head in the sand.

Well count me in the sand up to my A$$, because A/HB do not get annual inspections, because only an A&P-IA can sign off any ANNUAL. and you do not need to be an A&P-IA to do the Conditional inspection on a A/HB.

People on this web page think a new A&P-IA will increase the price of an annual inspection, when in fact they can not tell the difference between the cost of the inspection, and the work preformed to repair the discrepancies found during the inspection.

 

[Silvaire]

...Things I replaced or repaired on the first annual: .... all pushrod tubes....

Okay I'll bite - what the heck can go wrong with a pushrod tube?

 

[Tom-D]

Do A&P's charge less to work on experimentals?

Most of the A&Ps are smart enough not to work on Experimentals, less they get blamed for the poor quality of the aircraft.

 

[docmirror]

Okay I'll bite - what the heck can go wrong with a pushrod tube?

It's metal, it will corrode.

 

[Morne]

Buy a newer airplane and the annuals won't eat you up.

I've never paid more than $1,000 for someone else to do an annual on my -10. When I do it under the supervision of an A&P it is $200. I do the work myself in between annuals.

Does not make sense to me to pay $30k for a slow 50 year old plane and spend $5k a year maintaining it. Buy a faster newer RV and enjoy the savings, and speed.

Honest to Odin, would you P-L-E-A-S-E stop it?

You love RVs, we get it. You think they are superior, we understand. You think they fly 200 knots for 1000 miles and crap all over everyone else's threads - we are so freaking nauseated it isn't even funny.

Did I say I was thinking about buying the 50 year old spam can? No, I didn't. I was just wondering what causes the expensive annuals people seem to report.

By the way, I like the RV line of E/AB aircraft. However, in this day of seriously depressed used aircraft prices I can buy a lot of certified for a fraction of the cost of a used RV (I am NOT a builder). The money I save can go into (admittedly higher rate) fuel consumption. By the time I hit what an RV-10 costs in acquisition of a 182 and fuel I'll have about 500 hours in my bird. I am a pilot - that means I like to F-L-Y. If you enjoy B-U-I-L-D-I-N-G then be my guest, but please stop barfing in threads no one asked you about. That is, unless you know of an example of an RV that needed an expensive annual and can enlighten us as to why.

 

[DavidWhite]

Buy a newer airplane and the annuals won't eat you up.

I've never paid more than $1,000 for someone else to do an annual on my -10. When I do it under the supervision of an A&P it is $200. I do the work myself in between annuals.

Does not make sense to me to pay $30k for a slow 50 year old plane and spend $5k a year maintaining it. Buy a faster newer RV and enjoy the savings, and speed.

What about those of us who fly for volunteer organizations that have forbade pilots flying experimentals from transporting patients due to safety reasons?

Also, I paid 2/3 the price of a RV10 (A VFR RV10 - built by someone who may or may not have cut corners) for an airplane that is just as fast, and burns less gas. It's got more range too (and folding bits, because having the gear hanging down the whole flight is just embarrassing)

 

[JoseCuervo]

Buy a newer airplane and the annuals won't eat you up.

I've never paid more than $1,000 for someone else to do an annual on my -10. When I do it under the supervision of an A&P it is $200. I do the work myself in between annuals.

Does not make sense to me to pay $30k for a slow 50 year old plane and spend $5k a year maintaining it. Buy a faster newer RV and enjoy the savings, and speed.

Are all your posts the same?

Does it become tiresome?

 

[docmirror]

Are all your posts the same?

Does it become tiresome?

Yes.

Yes.

 

[Ted]

Part of this is due to the difference in the way people maintain things. If you have a 40 year old aircraft it's going to cost some money IMO, even the new ones cost money. I looked at a very nice 1000TT 8 year old Baron with all the receipts, not one annual was less than $10k. I just don't believe when someone has an old bird for years and claims to have almost no repairs, just doesn't work that way unless you are deferring maintenance.

Same with cars, someone says just oil changes in 100k, I say here's a car that needs a lot of work.

Depends - I sold my Dodge Ram at 108k that I bought brand new. Total work was oil changes and one serpentine belt. New owner has it to about 180k with new tires, a bearing, and a transmission tail housing from when he drove it like an idiot. But on the whole, you are corect.

OTOH, $10k/year for an annual on a new Baron with 1000TT (so about 125 hours/year) sounds to me like someone was paying way too much for an annual. A naturally aspirated, non-pressurized piston twin should be somewhere between $3k and $10k on average.

Buy a newer airplane and the annuals won't eat you up.

I've never paid more than $1,000 for someone else to do an annual on my -10. When I do it under the supervision of an A&P it is $200. I do the work myself in between annuals.

Does not make sense to me to pay $30k for a slow 50 year old plane and spend $5k a year maintaining it. Buy a faster newer RV and enjoy the savings, and speed.

Your math doesn't work.

Let's say you got the worst RV-10 out there at $100k and paid $500/year for annual maintenance, vs. $30k for a 50 year old spam can with same performance and paid $5k a year. It'll take you 35 years of $5k annuals to get to the point where you've met the $100k for the RV, which by that point will have spent an additional $17,500 on maintenance.

Meanwhile, the RV will be depreciating towards the $30k of that original spamcan you bought.

So really, the math says it doesn't make sense to buy a new RV. It would make far more sense to buy the 50 year old spam can.

Thank you for confirming what I already knew. I love my spam can. It's faster than your RV, holds more people (and stuff), has de-ice, and won't end up in a corn field (or mountain, or ocean) when an engine quits.

I love my spam can.

 

[Geico266]

I thought this was POA ( Pilot's Of America) ? I'm a pilot, and own and maintain 2 aircraft, have bought and sold 10 others. I have flown all over the US in experimental aircraft. Don't I have a say also? You want facts about the cost of aircraft ownership. Would not that include all aircraft?

 

[Ted]

I thought this was POA ( Pilot's Of America) ? I'm a pilot, don't I have a say?

You want facts about the cost of aircraft ownership. Would not that include all aircraft?

Yep. See above.

 

[Alexb2000]

Depends - I sold my Dodge Ram at 108k that I bought brand new. Total work was oil changes and one serpentine belt. New owner has it to about 180k with new tires, a bearing, and a transmission tail housing from when he drove it like an idiot. But on the whole, you are corect.

OTOH, $10k/year for an annual on a new Baron with 1000TT (so about 125 hours/year) sounds to me like someone was paying way too much for an annual. A naturally aspirated, non-pressurized piston twin should be somewhere between $3k and $10k on average.
D

The issue with this one was a cylinder or two every annual. That plus some deferred maintenance, plus inspection, and its pretty easy to go past $10k.

 

[Morne]

I thought this was POA ( Pilot's Of America) ? I'm a pilot, and own and maintain 2 aircraft, have bought and sold 10 others. I have flown all over the US in experimental aircraft. Don't I have a say also? You want facts about the cost of aircraft ownership. Would not that include all aircraft?

No, you don't. From the original post, enlarged slightly so even rude people with poor vision can read it:

My question is, "What causes annuals to be so insanely pricy?"

Unless you know what causes annuals to be so insanely pricy then PLEASE silence thyself and stop trying to derail MY thread. I did NOT ask, and do NOT care, why the condition inpsection on RVs is so low. I would rather gargle with razor blades than hear your support for the position. You have all the charisma of a retarded, left-handed, meth-addicted, neurotic venomous snake and NONE of the comparative charm. Thanks so much for crapping up another thread like a seagull who just ate from the fastfood chinese dumpster.

 

[Geico266]

The issue with this one was a cylinder or two every annual. That plus some deferred maintenance, plus inspection, and its pretty easy to go past $10k.

Okay, let's put the ego's aside for a minute.

You are right about deferred maintenance. That is why I bring up buying a newer plane. How many $10k annuals does it take to make up the difference plus you still have a newer plane with a higher resale value.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm trying to understand the attraction to 50 year planes. ( Notice I rarely use the "spam can" words out of respect for my fellow POAers) I trained in a 172, and rode safety in a Cherokee 180. I just don't see the attraction.

Bring up my costs of annuals, repairs, and operating costs gives a good balance to this forum and includes the fastest growing segment of general aviation..... experimentals.

 

[Morne]

Bring up my costs of annuals, repairs, and operating costs gives a good balance to this forum.

That's like saying that Andrew Dice Clay brings balance to a convent.

 

[Geico266]

Most of the A&Ps are smart enough not to work on Experimentals, less they get blamed for the poor quality of the aircraft.

Smart business plan Tom! Especially in this economy.

Our local crusty A&P said the same thing... until he saw my -10. Now he work's on all RV's.

 

[RotorAndWing]

No, you don't. From the original post, enlarged slightly so even rude people with poor vision can read it:

My question is, "What causes annuals to be so insanely pricy?"

Unless you know what causes annuals to be so insanely pricy then PLEASE silence thyself and stop trying to derail MY thread. I did NOT ask, and do NOT care, why the condition inpsection on RVs is so low. I would rather gargle with razor blades than hear your support for the position. You have all the charisma of a retarded, left-handed, meth-addicted, neurotic venomous snake and NONE of the comparative charm. Thanks so much for crapping up another thread like a seagull who just ate from the fastfood chinese dumpster.

Oh please....Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel....

 

[Ted]

The issue with this one was a cylinder or two every annual. That plus some deferred maintenance, plus inspection, and its pretty easy to go past $10k.

It can, and maybe the new Barons have some expensive components to deal with at annual that the old ones don't (although I can't see why). But as you know I've got some experience operating 50 year old spam can twins. We do 100-hour inspections for our annuals since we were putting 300 hours/year on the Aztec and 200 hours/year on the 310 for a while. Since a 100-hour is an annual and we signed them off as such, that's given me a total of 15 annuals worth of experience with the two planes.

Typically, you have expensive annuals and cheap annuals. The cheap ones for a twin (Edit: in the Aztec/Baron/310 class) are right around $3k or so where they do the inspection, do the oil changes, and find virtually nothing wrong. This seems to account for close to half in my experience.

Then the other half are where you have more things wrong. Those typically cost $5-10k, and include having things like a bad cylinder (or in one 100-hour a complete top overhaul on one engine) and various other issues. The average in my experience has been around $5k probably, and that includes doing some catching up.

 

[Geico266]

No, you don't. From the original post, enlarged slightly so even rude people with poor vision can read it:

My question is, "What causes annuals to be so insanely pricy?"

Old spam cans.

Your blond a hair job must have affected your brain.

How is your rant helpful to POA?

 

[Morne]

Old spam cans.

Thanks for your insight. I'll file that away.

 

[Ted]

Okay, let's put the ego's aside for a minute.

You are right about deferred maintenance. That is why I bring up buying a newer plane. How many $10k annuals does it take to make up the difference plus you still have a newer plane with a higher resale value.

I handled the math for you a few posts back. It takes quite a long time to catch up on costs, while the RV (or Lancair, or whatever) is depreciating. If the economics made sense, I'd have looked at a Lancair IV-P by now.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm trying to understand the attraction to 50 year planes. ( Notice I rarely use the "spam can" words out of respect for my fellow POAers) I trained in a 172, and rode safety in a Cherokee 180. I just don't see the attraction.

Right, and a 172 and Cherokee 180 make up two sections of the spam can segment. I love my 45 year old spam can of a 310. As I pointed out already, faster than your RV-10 (you could turbo yours, but you've talked about the bad ideas of messing with the specified engine by Vans), has de-icing equipment (granted you could add it to the RV if you wanted with no STC, but you haven't), has 6 seats (you can't do that), wing lockers (you could, but it would work really badly), and has two engines.

So to me, I don't see the appeal to paying significantly more money for a plane that's slower, smaller, less capable, etc. But we both know that you have a mission, I have another mission. They are different.

Bring up my costs of annuals, repairs, and operating costs gives a good balance to this forum and includes the fastest growing segment of general aviation..... experimentals.

You are correct that experimentals are the fastest-growing segment. The stats I heard were that Vans accounted for 50% of GA sales last year. Of course, it will take 10 years for most of those planes to hit the sky, but I'll still count them. The catch is that for many people, experimentals don't and will never make sense.

 

[Tom-D]

My question is, "What causes annuals to be so insanely pricy?"

Easy,,,, Poorly maintained aircraft.

 

[bnt83]

+1. Poorly maintained aircraft

Labor cost, parts costs, data cost, special tools, calibrations, insurance etc..


Don't forget poorly designed parts of the aircraft or poor design in general.

 

[Tom-D]

Smart business plan Tom! Especially in this economy.

Our local crusty A&P said the same thing... until he saw my -10. Now he work's on all RV's.

Some one should remind him of the safety record of EXP aircraft, because the person to get first sued, is the last name in the log books.

 

[PilotAlan]

I wonder how much is due to new eyes.

This much:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1088521#post1088521

Seriously, part of it is not being able to separate maintenance from annual. Choosing to overhaul the engine does not make it part of the "annual", nor does catching up on a few years of deferred maintenance.

Part of it is not separating avionics or equipment upgrades from the annual.

And a BIG part if it is someone getting smacked by a very expensive repair found at annual (cracked gear trunion, corroded spar, etc) and then deciding it's time to sell the plane.