What is the preferred educational level this forum should allow?

John, You do okay just the way you are. You're a pilot. Just getting there means you have an above average comprehension and now a skill many do not have. I think what we all experience from time to time, on both sides, is the ability to read the meaning of what is written rather than the words themselves AND the inability to refrain from answering a post when we are emotional about it. Same is true with EMAIL. And I've had it with face to face.
When angry (nee emotional) count 10, when very angry (emotional), just keep counting.
And full disclosure... I normally check the box that says "Some College". I feel formal education is good to prove you can accomplish the task. The degree proves you stuck it out. I didn't. Nothing replaces experience. The problem most have is the degree is required so you can get the job that will give you the experience. I was well on my way without the degree and found trying to work, raise a family, and go to night school too demanding.
 
Education does help a lot -- but there are many ways to become educated.
Coming from the guy who was an entrepreneur at 16, who's skills we all benefit from.
And never once have you managed to screw up their, there, and they're or two, to, and too.
 
<snip>
Like others have said, education comes in many forms. A piece of paper doesn't make one educated.

JB1842 - this is not directed at you; I just liked the way you summed it up and want to piggy-back. ;)

In my opinion:
Education should not be confused with training.

Either is worth exactly what you put into it.


(that is all. resume bickering)
 
I once sat through an interview for a medevac position in a Conquest. We had a nice chat, and at the end of the interview (which went well), the interviewer set my resume on his desk and said "I don't think you're right for the position, as you don't have a college degree."

I asked him why that might make me ineligible. He pointed out that "Many of our clientele are professionals, you see. Doctors and nurses. The problem is that without a college degree, you couldn't converse intelligently with them."

He was correct about the degree: I didn't have one. He wasn't correct about the rest. I stay fairly abreast of current events, globally and domestically. I can carry on a conversation about shakespeare, and generally my diction and grammar stays within the bounds of good reason. I was annoyed, but went my way. I noted that the individual giving the interview didn't have a degree until much later in his career, as evidenced by the diploma on his wall.

Often a degree serves as little more than an arbitrary discriminator in a job selection. It makes one more competitive. In the end, it's not about the published hiring minimums. The company may say that three years of work experience and two thousand hours are the minimum, but when ten applicants show up with ten thousand hours, each with a degree, and twenty years of related work experience, the competitive minimums just shot up. Those are the minimums that it's going to take to compete with the other applicants.

If the other applicants for a job have a degree and you don't, then you may have a hard time being competitive. I've managed to do so over the years, with some success, but I've also lost out on some good jobs over the years because I didn't have the degree. It may be self-consolation, but looking back I tend to believe that those are the positions I didn't really want anyway. After all, if that's all that kept me back from doing the job, then it probably wasn't the job for me. I've often sought out and worked jobs that valued my experience and ability over unrelated accouterments and accolades, such as a diploma.

I've got five different FAA certificates and various category, class, and type ratings. That and five dollars will buy a starbucks cup of coffee these days. I'm working on a degree online presently, and completed one last year, also online. I used much of my experience and certification toward the degree, but I don't consider it to be anything more than a piece of paper. It probably won't mean anything to the employers for whom I work (or those for whom I may work). It's something to do. I certainly haven't gained anything from the schoolwork, and don't really expect to. It might have meant something when I was eighteen years old, but that came and went a long time ago, and now it's just something to do. My career was built without it, and it won't enhance whatever I do from here-on.

A degree, even one in aviation, really has nothing to do with flying an aircraft nor about working in one, but I would never discourage anyone from seeking a degree, especially those who are seeking a career in aviation. It might be the deciding factor in getting the job you want, and that's nothing to overlook.
 
We are all slackers, and should have multiple Doctorates, and at least three times our Net Worth or more in Government sponsored student loan debt -- this in order to even be considered "worthy" in our current society.

There... that about covers it, right? We done here? ;)
 
You are a product of your heritage and your education.

Which part of that can you change?
 
Education is the single most over valued item on a resume. With public schools graduating anything that can fog a mirror, and colleges following very closely, these days, to maintain all those gov't subsidies for "retraining" the unemployed, a college degree is about as worthwhile as taking your accordion fishing with you.
People either know how to work, or they don't. The rest you can teach them, after their hired.

Wow, that's a great way to take a kernel of truth and distort it beyond recognition.

In a previous post, I mentioned a high school dropout Diesel tech who had impressed me very significantly. He proves beyond any doubt that sophisticated understanding without a formal education is possible.

Is it common? No, not at all. Much more common is the "anti-elitist" blowhard who thinks he knows more than all the Ph.D.s, but made a logical error in step #1 so elementary that everyone stopped paying attention.

Education is very important. It's not everything, and it's probably not advisible to use it as a sole discriminator. But to say you don't need an education to be a rocket scientist is, well, uneducated. Do you need a Ph.D.? No, but it sure helps.

Among other things, even an unrelated college degree proves that you can finish a long term difficult project that you started. There are other ways to prove that, but not many of them.

And which would you hire? The guy who never finished college because he thought it was for sissies, or the guy who did, all other things created equal? Not many people can get away with what Steve Jobs did.
 
You are a product of your heritage and your education.

You are a product of neither.

One of the great lies today is that we are products of our environment. We are not.

We are products of what we choose to assimilate from our environment.

Those who are products of their environment or their heritage are lemmings, and there are plenty, but it need not be.

We are most definitely NOT products of our education.

And which would you hire? The guy who never finished college because he thought it was for sissies, or the guy who did, all other things created equal?

I'd hire the guy whom I felt was best for the job, regardless of his "education," his political affiliation, his sex, religion, color, facial hair, or favorite color.

Whether he finished college would be entirely irrelevant.

Mindless HR departments use the degree as a discriminator. In most cases, it's little more.
 
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You are a product of neither.

One of the great lies today is that we are products of our environment. We are not.

We are products of what we choose to assimilate from our environment.

Those who are products of their environment or their heritage are lemmings, and there are plenty, but it need not be.

We are most definitely NOT products of our education.
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IOW you think you can change who your ancestors are and every thing you learned since you were born mean nothing..

yeah right! use both of your brain cells to stay on topic
 
I'd hire the guy whom I felt was best for the job, regardless of his "education," his political affiliation, his sex, religion, color, facial hair, or favorite color.

Whether he finished college would be entirely irrelevant.

THIS is why education is not irrelevant. The parameters are that the two people in question are identical except for their education. Neither one is "best for the job," outside of that parameter.

And what would you consider "best" for this unspecified job? You didn't qualify any of your statements. This is the kernel of why it's wrong.

One thing that a technical college education can teach is the basics of logic, and in paying attention to the details. Can you get that by other methods? Sure. Is it guaranteed? Well, this time, it was a miss.

Would I hire a systems engineer without any degree? I suppose so if I could be convinced the relevant techniques and subject matter are understood. But it's an enormous obstacle to overcome, and will almost certainly require a track record, something rather difficult to get without the background knowledge. Would I hire one without a Ph.D.? Probably, but the current crop of interviewees with less than that and with adequate skills is empty. This I do find somewhat surprising; there isn't all that much to systems engineering, and the subject matter at hand is not out of reach for a BSE.

The best person for the job is usually properly and formally trained. Whether that means college is a function of the job in question. There are exceptions, but if you're going to hang your hat on it, you're going to be disappointed.

And you need to understand that those of us who make technical hiring decisions look at skills first. There is an obvious correlation with education, but it's the skills we're interested in. A large appropriate skill set with a small or absent education would get a second look, but despite the mythology you've bought into, that's very nearly a unicorn.
 
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You can't change your ancestors, obviously.

Who your ancestors are doesn't determine who you are.

You are not a product of your upbringing, unless you allow yourself to be.

The child of alcoholic parents need not be an alcoholic. The child of abusive parents need not be abusive. One who hails from a communist country need not be communist. Simply because you were raised Roman Catholic doesn't mean that you must be. You are not who you were raised to be: you're who you decide to be.

Going to college doesn't change that. You're not a Cougar or a Razorback; you're who you elect to be.

THIS is why education is not irrelevant. The parameters are that the two people in question are identical except for their education. Neither one is "best for the job."

This is why we interview, rather than work off a resume.

I can usually tell most of what I need to know about an applicant for a job long before we ever move past sitting and talking. I can't tell that so much from a resume, but I can glean a lot from someone in person.

And what would you consider "best" for this unspecified job? You didn't qualify any of your statements. This is the kernel of why it's wrong.

There's no kernel, and there's no way to quantify who's best. If both are identical, cookie cutter individuals made of plastic who spout the same things, then eventually one might have to fall back on credentials, but those are not the prime qualifiers for the job. Who has more experience working? Does the one who left college to work on airplanes have more experience than the person who finished his degree in aeronautical engineering? I'll take the experienced mechanic, thanks. Are they both willing to work for the same about of money, and is it commensurate with their qualifications? If the degree holder is lowballing himself, that's a warning sign. There's always more to the picture. Always. I'll know after I've spoken to them, checked up on them, tested them, as the need may arise. The degree doesn't mean much, however, and it's not the deciding factor to me.

One thing that a technical college education can teach is the basics of logic, and in paying attention to the details. Can you get that by other methods? Sure. Is it guaranteed? Well, this time, it was a miss.

"Critical thinking" as espoused by the modern educational establishment is a joke. It's overthought thought. It's presented as something unique, something to be taught, and it's not. Is logic something one needs to seek in school? Assuredly not. It it guaranteed in school? Not at all.

The best person for the job is usually properly and formally trained. Whether that means college is a function of the job in question. There are exceptions, but if you're going to hang your hat on it, you're going to be disappointed
.

If you're talking about an attorney or a veterinarian, certainly the formal education is important; it's the basis of how one learns to do those things, before one gains certification.

In the case of pilots, not at all. A pilot is more like a ski instructor. One need not go to school to become a pilot. The same is true of aircraft mechanics. While school teaches a broad spectrum of the basics, I've had a chance to see the quality coming out of some well recognized schools and it's been rather unimpressive. Pilot mills, including accredited university pilot mills, are little different. Certainly students strut forth filled with the idea that they've been educated and that they're learned, and perhaps that they possess some modicum of skill, but the truth is that they're the same two or three hundred hour pilot that came from Ma and Pa Kettle's School of Fish Frying and Aerobatic Soaring. Another pilot for the masses, and their degree doesn't mean much at all.

Formal training is really inconsequential in the face of solid experience.

A great example is the ag world, where an operator couldn't give a stuff if you have a degree, and laughs at a formal ag school. He's only interested in what you've flown, your record, your references, and most importantly what you can do when he throws you in the seat of the airplane and tries you out. The same is true in varying ways in many other segments of the industry.

And you need to understand that those of us who make technical hiring decisions look at skills first. There is an obvious correlation with education, but it's the skills we're interested in. A large appropriate skill set with a small or absent education would get a second look, but despite the mythology you've bought into, that's very nearly a unicorn.

Mythology I've bought into, you say? Interesting.

My observations are merely that: observations of reality. Not something I've been told or taught. Certainly not something I've heard or upon which I've been sold.

Again, if you're hiring an aeronautical engineer, then Joe Schmoe with a slide rule and a pocket protector may not be your first choice. If you're hiring a pilot, however, then his degree is really quite irrelevant, and has nothing to do with his people skills, his technical skills, his ability or judgement, or his insurability. A sit-down meeting, a look at his references, a talk with his former employers, and a ride in the airplane or the simulator with him will tell you what you want to know.

I was in need of a job, once upon a time. I drove several hours delivering resumes, and at one stop, was asked to take a written test, and sat for an impromptu interview. I was then taken out to the airplane and given a two hour check ride. Not once did the operator ask if I had a degree. On another occasion, I stopped at a large field, delivering resumes by hand, and was asked by the operator again to spend the night and make myself available for an interview. We talked, went to lunch, and after lunch I was told to preflight a Learjet in the hangar. I was directed to fly the owner somewhere, then fly him back, which I did. Upon returning, a letter was drawn up with the terms of employment, and I was offered the job. Never did the discussion approach my formal education, nor did the operator care. He was concerned about safety, ability, and customer service. Satisfied, he offered me the job.

Had someone else been interviewing at the same time, dressed as me, who spoke like me, who looked like me, who had the same flight times and time in type, who had the same everything, who had a degree...it wouldn't really have mattered as the subject never came up, and wasn't germane to the job.

Certainly I have had interviews in which some asked about a degree (as previously relayed). I've had interviews in which I was asked about the score I got on my ATP written, with an incredulous response when I admit I have no idea...it was too long ago. Passing. I even had a couple that wanted to know my high school GPA. Who knows? Who remembers? If that's what's important to that employer, then I probably don't want to work for that employer; it's not what's important to me, and I'd rather have something in common with the employer. There are plenty of others who are like minded, who care about mission before minutia, and who place a premium on ability, rather than clout. I'll go work for them, thanks.
 
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You can't change your ancestors, obviously.

Who your ancestors are doesn't determine who you are.

They determine what you look like. that's part of who you are.

You are not a product of your upbringing, unless you allow yourself to be.

What you allow your self to be is based upon what you have learned.

The child of alcoholic parents need not be an alcoholic. The child of abusive parents need not be abusive. One who hails from a communist country need not be communist. Simply because you were raised Roman Catholic doesn't mean that you must be. You are not who you were raised to be: you're who you decide to be.

The example you just used is a portion of your education. You learned that you don't want to beat kids or who ever.
You learned you don't want to be a communist, you decide who you want to be because of your education.

SO, You are a product of your heritage, because that is what you look like, and your education because what you learned effects the way you behave, think, and act.
 
Tom,

There's no doubt that we take something from our experiences, but we are not a product of them.

We can choose to act upon or be acted upon, but we make the choice.

What we look like is really quite meaningless. As adults we ought to understand that by now.

Our ancestral heritage is really quite irrelevant to the subject of what education is appropriate on a web board or for an employer.

We are not the products of educational institutions or programs; we are the result of what we decide to take with us from those programs.

If I elect not to be a communist after exposure to communism, that does not make me a product of communism. It makes me someone who is able to make up his own mind. I might just as well have done so from reading a book, or by deep contemplation.

The great lie in society is that we can blame someone for ourselves. We can blame our parents or our abuse, or genes. The truth is that we are who we are, and can blame no one but ourselves.

We are not relegated to ignorance for lack of a degree. We are not consigned to a lesser caste or station if we completed the eighth grade but not the ninth. We are employable and even desirable if we got our A&P based on experience, rather than from a formal school, and we can still fly a 747 around the world without a litany of letters following our name, whether they were gleaned from an accredited institution or not.

The work I'm doing right now isn't highly technical, in my opinion, and doesn't require a college degree. My employer did not ask if I had one. I didn't offer.

I work alongside others with advanced degrees.

Someone for whom I work has a daughter who is very attractive, and has two advanced degrees, and a list of professional accomplishments and qualifications longer than my arm. One would never know it to talk to her, however, and even her own office is understanded and humble, when she can be found in the office. A communication from here is hardly overbearing; she doesn't wear her accolades on her sleeve, and I really don't think she holds other's agains them, or the lack thereof against them, either.

A degree may contribute to one's overall self, if one so intends, but one should never make the error of believing that the degree makes the man. It does not.
 
Tom,

There's no doubt that we take something from our experiences, but we are not a product of them.

We can choose to act upon or be acted upon, but we make the choice.

What we look like is really quite meaningless. As adults we ought to understand that by now.

Our ancestral heritage is really quite irrelevant to the subject of what education is appropriate on a web board or for an employer.

We are not the products of educational institutions or programs; we are the result of what we decide to take with us from those programs.

If I elect not to be a communist after exposure to communism, that does not make me a product of communism. It makes me someone who is able to make up his own mind. I might just as well have done so from reading a book, or by deep contemplation.

The great lie in society is that we can blame someone for ourselves. We can blame our parents or our abuse, or genes. The truth is that we are who we are, and can blame no one but ourselves.

We are not relegated to ignorance for lack of a degree. We are not consigned to a lesser caste or station if we completed the eighth grade but not the ninth. We are employable and even desirable if we got our A&P based on experience, rather than from a formal school, and we can still fly a 747 around the world without a litany of letters following our name, whether they were gleaned from an accredited institution or not.

The work I'm doing right now isn't highly technical, in my opinion, and doesn't require a college degree. My employer did not ask if I had one. I didn't offer.

I work alongside others with advanced degrees.

Someone for whom I work has a daughter who is very attractive, and has two advanced degrees, and a list of professional accomplishments and qualifications longer than my arm. One would never know it to talk to her, however, and even her own office is understanded and humble, when she can be found in the office. A communication from here is hardly overbearing; she doesn't wear her accolades on her sleeve, and I really don't think she holds other's agains them, or the lack thereof against them, either.

A degree may contribute to one's overall self, if one so intends, but one should never make the error of believing that the degree makes the man. It does not.

You were born with the natural instink to suck, every thing else you learned, you act according to what you have learned, Your physical appearance is a big part of what you are. no matter what you think.
 
I've no doubt that your physical appearance is a big part of who you are, Tom, and apparently that works for you.

It's not at all a part of who I am, but again, whatever works for you.

We are not what we learn. We are what we decide.

Learning is often (incorrectly) classified or loosely defined as a change in behavior. That is to say, it is generally said that learning having taken place is marked by a change in behavior. This is incorrect.

One may learn without changing one's behavior. One may learn and decide to do something other than what one has learned.

I may learn that sticking my hand in a bee hive hurts, but I may elect to stick my hand in there anyway, because I want the honey. I have made a decision regardless of my environment. Covnersely, I may simply go buy honey, and still exhibit no fear of bees. My environment has not determined who I am, nor what I do; I have determined that.

One always has the discretion to be acted upon by one's environment, though that's also choice.

We are not products of our environment except insofar as we choose to be.

If you find that your appearance dictates who you think you are, then by all means proceed as planned, if this is within your realm of reason. I find such reason to be immature and lacking, but it's best do do as seems fit to you. Frankly, I look like a balding overweight goofball with excess scars and bad teeth; were I to behave with such an image in mind, I might be unduly influenced to bury my head in the sand and forsake mirrors in hope of emotional self-preservation. Fortunately, I take a more moderate approach, which is that I don't care, and act based on something other than vanity and appearance. It works fine for me. Your mileage may vary.
 
I take a more moderate approach, which is that I don't care, and act based on something other than vanity and appearance. It works fine for me. Your mileage may vary.

Your heritage is nothing more than your genealogy.

and those who act with out reasoning are considered insane. reasoning is based upon your intelligence or education.

physiology 101
 
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In the case of pilots, not at all. A pilot is more like a ski instructor. One need not go to school to become a pilot. The same is true of aircraft mechanics. While school teaches a broad spectrum of the basics, I've had a chance to see the quality coming out of some well recognized schools and it's been rather unimpressive. Pilot mills, including accredited university pilot mills, are little different. Certainly students strut forth filled with the idea that they've been educated and that they're learned, and perhaps that they possess some modicum of skill, but the truth is that they're the same two or three hundred hour pilot that came from Ma and Pa Kettle's School of Fish Frying and Aerobatic Soaring. Another pilot for the masses, and their degree doesn't mean much at all.

THERE we go. Your sweeping generalization about all resumes was really about certificated flight instructors and not a whole lot else. Even the generalization about "pilots" is wrong. A Part 121 transport pilot flying transpacific long hauls for UAL is not at all like a ski instructor.

It's true that a college degree for a CFI isn't terribly relevant (though I've met a few experienced CFIs who don't understand density altitude -- that's obvious with a first year physics course or a good ground school, or even a careful reading of Sparky Imeson's book -- though careful reading is a skill taught at university). It's NOT true for quite a lot of other things.

And how to express oneself is taught. Some people have a lot of trouble understanding what they have not experienced. There is a much broader horizon out there.
 
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Your heritage is nothing more than your genealogy.

I don't know any of my family outside of my immediate parents; my other family, extended family, and ancestors have no impact on me. If you're not talking genetics, then most definitely the family has no bearing on who I am. You formerly tried to say that heritage determines how you look, implying youi were referring to genetics. Now you're saying something entirely different, dismissing the issue of genetics (after you made the point that what you look like is who you are), and are restricting your position to ancestry and genealogy. Whether your ancestor was the queen of England or Eddie the Stupified really has no bearing on who you are, unless you happen to set out to be just like them.

and those who act with out reasoning are considered insane. reasoning is based upon your intelligence or education.

physiology 101

Which is it? Intelligence or education. The two are not the same.

Who said anything about acting without reasoning?

Are you sure it's physiology 101, and not psychology 101? You're drawing on a college subject (101 being a classification for post-secondary education courses), but don't seem to have them right. You might have failed psychology 101.

THERE we go. Your sweeping generalization about all resumes was really about certificated flight instructors and not a whole lot else. Even the generalization about "pilots" is wrong. A Part 121 transport pilot flying transpacific long hauls for UAL is not at all like a ski instructor.

There we go? Where?

A sweeping generalization? No such thing. I included you there too. Me, too. Flight instructors? It's not about flight instructors. A 121 transport pilot flying transpacific long hauls for UAL is the same as a ski instructor; just another bum with some flight training and a little experience. Have you ever flown transpacific long hauls?

The long haul pilot might disagree, but that's arrogance and self aggrandizement, nothing more. The degree isn't important to being there.

And how to express oneself is taught. Some people have a lot of trouble understanding what they have not experienced. There is a much broader horizon out there.

That broader horizon is usually discovered after someone has left school, rather than in the artificial environment of the classroom. The classroom is not experience.
 
This is an issue I have thought about more than a few times in the past. Yesterday, on this forum, I was dumped on for my lack of education. The most formal education I received was my completing the ninth grade at a public school.

I received a high school GED in the military.

So...should people who lack written communication skills, refrain from posting their thoughts on public forums such as this one. Are these forums intended to be more for the educated elite among us, rather than the Dumbo buffoons, much like myself?

Apparently I express myself at a sixth grade level. Is this something that I should be ashamed of? Should I refrain from risking personal humiliation or perhaps offending the more educated readers of this forum?

I am being serious here. Are you personally offended by having to struggle through the written ramblings of the uneducated?

Should I back off? Should I leave such things to my educated betters?

-John

I have never found formal education indicative of level of thought, appears every bit of 80/20:dunno:. How many sides of an issue can you defend?
 
My late uncle was likely the most "educated" person that I've ever known. Rhodes Scholar, Masters from Oxford, tenured Professor of English Literature - there's an endowment established in his name at the university where he rec'd his undergrad and PHD. His life was a horrorshow. Taught me a lot about education vs. knowledge.

My very first "career" boss was from a wealthy family and Harvard educated. He was one of the biggest dumbasses I've ever encountered...before and since. I learned to give him a WIDE berth because anyone in his sphere of influence suffered mightily.

Education means a lot less than intelligence and knowledge.
 
You are a product of neither.

One of the great lies today is that we are products of our environment. We are not.

We are products of what we choose to assimilate from our environment.

Those who are products of their environment or their heritage are lemmings, and there are plenty, but it need not be.

We are most definitely NOT products of our education.



I'd hire the guy whom I felt was best for the job, regardless of his "education," his political affiliation, his sex, religion, color, facial hair, or favorite color.

Whether he finished college would be entirely irrelevant.

Mindless HR departments use the degree as a discriminator. In most cases, it's little more.


Not just that, the Universe is the product of what we think about. It is the information that gets ordered into the universe. That's why negative thinking creates a negative society.
 
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