What is it with potential buyers lately?

Buying a plane is similar to buying a house, yet people put up an ad of FB or Barnstormers and expect a massive transaction to be smooth and uneventful. Most sellers won't move past general questions until cash is put up and a contract signed.

Your first email to any potential buyer should include a sales contract and a 5%-10% deposit that will be applied to the sale or lost if the sale is not completed.

Broker? Depends on the cut they want. Going through a lawyer paperwork might be cheaper in the long run. Escrow should not surprise anyone. Be ready to cut ties the second a buyer starts to flake.

Honestly Sellers are also a large part of the problem. Everyone has experience with unreasonable demands.
 
Suggestion - you can get an "alias" google phone number that can receive and send on your current cell plan and masks your real number. Just another layer of protection from oddballs.
 
I've been involved in 3 aircraft transactions- twice as a buyer once as a seller and I never had any big complications

In all cases it pretty much followed the pattern of..
Buyer comes and looks at aircraft, goes through the logs. Arrangements are made for a pre-buy inspection, inspection gets performed. Buyer and seller meet again- checks, keys, and signatures are exchanged, airplane flown to it's new home. The end. Never had a bunch of conditions, price negotiation was barely a thing as all parties had the same idea of what the aircraft should be worth and didn't play games. Most of the conversation was the seller telling the buyer about the aircraft and sharing aviation stories in general. Never messed around with Escrow or any of that stuff.

IDK am I just particularly lucky? From my experiences it doesn't seem hard at all.
 
I'll pay 15% over asking price plus I will add 1 bag of tacos from Taco Bell if you deliver the plane to me...
 
Unfortunately you have to put up with many headaches when you sell without a broker. I have bought and sold without the aide of a broker. I always insist on using an escrow company they do the heavy lifting.
 
There is one super low ball offer yesterday, that I declined, but then hours later the guy said he wanted to look at it anyway. Then blew up my phone with insults and inuendos to the tune of probably 20 texts, when I said he couldn't pull it out of the hangar and run it. I am not at the airplane, there is another airplane in front of mine that would have to be moved as well. I didn't feel comfortable letting someone I have never met, and don't like (from the arrogant condescending phone calls and texts), move two planes in and out and run mine without me or someone I know there to observe. The only person there is a neighbor that will open up the hangar, he knows nothing about my plane.
The situation is challenging, but TBH I wouldn't have bought my plane without seeing it run (and in my case test-flying it). If a buyer sets up a pre-buy inspection, the A&P is going to want to run the engine, right?
 
The situation is challenging, but TBH I wouldn't have bought my plane without seeing it run (and in my case test-flying it). If a buyer sets up a pre-buy inspection, the A&P is going to want to run the engine, right?
Would you have expected to be allowed to go open the owner's hangar, move someone else's plane out of the way, pull the potential purchase out of the hangar and start it up, without the owner present?

But all of this is further evidence that I should keep using brokers when I buy/sell. FSBO is bad enough with cars and houses. It's worse with airplanes.
 
Would you have expected to be allowed to go open the owner's hangar, move someone else's plane out of the way, pull the potential purchase out of the hangar and start it up, without the owner present?
No, but if you're trying to sell the plane.... If you are selling a house, you need to expect a buyer to bring in an inspector and maybe a contractor. If you're selling an expensive car, you need to expect a test drive/ride and maybe a mechanic's pre-buy.

I get that it's not always easy, but asking to see the engine run, watch the instruments fire up, and look over the plane functionally isn't an unreasonable expectation for a purchaser.

If it were me selling a plane in a shared hangar, I would try to arrange to have it at the front while it's on the market. JMO, YMMV.
 
Would you have expected to be allowed to go open the owner's hangar, move someone else's plane out of the way, pull the potential purchase out of the hangar and start it up, without the owner present?
No, I would expect the owner or a representative to be present.
This!!! It's not the buyer's fault that the seller is so far from the airplane and hasn't made arrangements to give potential buyers a chance to look at it.

@Wagondriver why is the airplane so far away from you???

FWIW, I have bought several airplanes now, and sold a couple, never ever without a test flight and a third-party prebuy inspection. Money and documentation goes through title and escrow, with the fee paid 1/2 and 1/2. This is what real buyers expect. If you're not willing to let them have a test flight in exchange for a nonrefundable deposit, you're not going to have an easy time making a sale.
 
If it were me selling a plane in a shared hangar, I would try to arrange to have it at the front while it's on the market. JMO, YMMV.
No, I would expect the owner or a representative to be present.
This!!! It's not the buyer's fault that the seller is so far from the airplane and hasn't made arrangements to give potential buyers a chance to look at it.

I agree with all of this 100%. That is why I said this. TWICE.

But all of this is further evidence that I should keep using brokers when I buy/sell.
This could be an advertisement for an airplane broker. It is the very reason I used one on all but my first acquisition, and THAT was a mistake.


Sometimes it is impossible to accommodate every buyer's whim and schedule.
 
Over the past year, I’ve been selling quite a bit private party. I’ve had surprising success on avoiding 10 to 20% fees associated with my normal outlets. 9 out of 10 people reaching out to me are wasting my time.

I now find enjoyment in trolling the trolls. The price increases with each blind offer I get. I virtually never have to lower the price in negotiations to make the sale when a seriously interested party finally comes along.
 
Would you have expected to be allowed to go open the owner's hangar, move someone else's plane out of the way, pull the potential purchase out of the hangar and start it up, without the owner present?
I wouldn't expect him to invite me to look at the airplane under those circumstances if he was serious about selling it to me. And if he wasn't serious about selling it to me, I wouldn't expect him to invite me to look at it under any circumstances. So I guess, yes, if he invited me to go look at it as a prospective buyer without him present, then I would expect him to allow me to open the hanger and look at it and start it. Otherwise, it's just wasting my time.
 
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I wouldn't expect him to invite me to look at the airplane under those circumstances if he was serious about selling it to me. And if he wasn't serious about selling it to me, I wouldn't expect him to invite me to look at it under any circumstances. So I guess, yes, if he invited me to go look at it as a prospective buyer without him present, then I would expect him to allow me to open the hanger and look at it and start it. Otherwise, it's just wasting my time.
Huh?
 
I ran into a scam recently where a guy was calling up everyone in the state selling similar type planes and offering over asking but he “couldn’t get there to see it for two weeks”. We figured out he was doing it so the other sellers would “take their planes off the market for a couple of weeks” while he got his sold.
 
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I have bought 21 airplanes for my personal use (sold 20). Never had a bad experience. Most I’ve sold myself, used brokers a couple of times. Generally, I did not do a pre-buy. When I sold, I guess most but not all buyers had a pre-buy. Mostly, I bought and sold on brand-specific discussion groups, BeechTalk, MooneySpace, and Van’s Air Force. When I used brokers, I used well-known, trusted ones. Neal Schwartz for Bonanza/Baron, and Jimmy Garrison and Don Maxwell for Mooneys, and Jaime Steel for Cirri.
 
I ran into a scam recently where a guy who was calling up everyone in the state selling similar type planes and offering over asking but he “couldn’t get there to see it for two weeks”. We figured out he was doing it so the other sellers would “take their planes off the market for a couple of weeks” while he got his sold.

Clever. I want to run that dude through a chipper shredder for his antisocial antics, but... I nod at the creativity.
 
Clever. I want to run that dude through a chipper shredder for his antisocial antics, but... I nod at the creativity.
Then there’s my “buyer” who offered a bit less than asking (via wire transfer) with no inspection, he’d get it the next day, I agreed to lower price based on easy sale. He didn’t show, but then sent a pre buy team of mechanics (who he never paid), shows up three days later, on the weekend, with a cashier check pre-drafted with even lower amount, and expected me to agree to that number. Had to threaten him with calling the police to get him to leave. I found out later he had spent the three days looking at other planes in the area jerking them around also.
 
I have bought 21 airplanes for my personal use (sold 20). Never had a bad experience. Most I’ve sold myself, used brokers a couple of times. Generally, I did not do a pre-buy. When I sold, I guess most but not all buyers had a pre-buy. Mostly, I bought and sold on brand-specific discussion groups, BeechTalk, MooneySpace, and Van’s Air Force. When I used brokers, I used well-known, trusted ones. Neal Schwartz for Bonanza/Baron, and Jimmy Garrison and Don Maxwell for Mooneys, and Jaime Steel for Cirri.
I have been recommending that people use brokers to buy/sell airplanes, but I have to clarify that a bit. If you are sufficiently knowledgeable about the process and valuation, and have the time and the personality to deal with tire-kickers and grifters, then by all means, DIY. But for people like me, a broker is the better solution. rarely find a situation in which the solution is the same for everyone.
 
Then there’s my “buyer” who offered a bit less than asking (via wire transfer) with no inspection, he’d get it the next day, I agreed to lower price based on easy sale. He didn’t show, but then sent a pre buy team of mechanics (who he never paid), shows up three days later, on the weekend, with a cashier check pre-drafted with even lower amount, and expected me to agree to that number. Had to threaten him with calling the police to get him to leave. I found out later he had spent the three days looking at other planes in the area jerking them around also.
Good Lord. That's total clown town.
I don't even know how it comes down to calling the police to leave. It should be well obvious before that a deal isn't happening.
 
Good Lord. That's total clown town.
I don't even know how it comes down to calling the police to leave. It should be well obvious before that a deal isn't happening.
Some people just won't take "NO!". And too many don't understand what "GTFO" means
 
Good Lord. That's total clown town.
I don't even know how it comes down to calling the police to leave. It should be well obvious before that a deal isn't happening.
He was trying to intimidate me into selling it at his price. Something like this I guess

 
I sold an airplane in October after buying a new one in June. I sold it through a broker with a specialty in my make and model, but I also spent several months “unofficially” selling the plane via word of mouth as I finished transition training in my new bird, got logbooks and other records organized, and otherwise got into the frame of mind to let go of my old plane. I spent a lot of that time being approached by people that were not at all serious.

Once I got the plane listed with the broker, I thought his fee (8%) was awfully high, but I really couldn’t be happier for having gone that route in the end. He took care of the sales listings, all of these tire kickers, all the paperwork, setting up an escrow account, and organizing the logistics of the prebuy and close. He also convinced me that the plane was worth a good deal more than I thought it was, and it sold at the price he suggested (less a couple of small items identified during the prebuy). By itself, that more than paid for his percentage. I’d never do it any other way next time.
 
I've had a plane for sale for a while now, I have had several offers. One that I wanted to pursue, a couple of low balls, and a full price.

The one I wanted to do was a trade, we exchanged logbooks, I researched his plane's history, spent a considerable amount of time working on logistics of how to trades planes on opposite sides of the country. Then silence, he was supposed to come look at it, but had gone silent, I called and left a message. A day later he calls back and says he didn't want to part with his plane.

The full price agreement was a 6 month goat roping. First he said he'd buy it full price, I said great, when are you going to come look at it? He replied that he wasn't going to, but wanted me to fly it 1000 miles to deliver it. I agreed to deliver it for no cost, that we'll get the transaction done, and for him to make sure his insurance would cover me while I flew it there. He said he doesn't insure planes and would buy it when the plane got to him, and "if its what you say it is, i'll give you full price. I didn't like that idea, but agreed to do it if he sent me a 10% non-refundable deposit. He refused. Deal was off, until he called me a couple weeks later and said he'd buy it for full price if I'd fly it to SoCal, about a 3 hour flight away. He was difficult with the scheduling, demanding it be there on a certain day when his guy could look at it. But, then I call his guy and he can't do it that day, but could on a Sunday. We made a tentative plan, I called the buyer and said that I could get it there, I asked for a $1000 deposit to cover my costs should he decide he didn't want it. ( I live 800 miles from both locations). I gave him wire instructions and told him that I needed to see the deposit by end of day thursday next week or I wouldn't leave home on Friday. I had a 3 hour drive to an airport, then two flights, then a $250 uber to get to the plane. Wire never showed up and I didn't hear from him. Fast forward 4 months, and his guy calls me saying that they want the airplane, I send photos of the log books, he says he wants to come look at it in about 3 weeks. 2.5 weeks goes by and I call to see if he's going to look at it. He says he is, but suggests that I pay for his expenses to come look at it, a 1.75 hour flight in a friends 172. He says its a done deal, they will pay me my listing price, which is now $15k lower than 4 month earlier. He says he has an escrow account set up, that I need to contact them and give them my information. I call the escrow company, there is nothing more than an account pending, all they have is the tail number. All they need from me is my phone number and email. Escrow company needs a deposit before they will do anything, and have to have all the buyers information, which I do not have. And a signed purchase agreement. I call the buyer's guy and we discuss the transaction, he suggests that the payment will not happen until I deliver the airplane for free to Socal. I shut that down, I will not deliver it to california until AFTER they own it, and at $15k under starting price, I will not do it for free, my cost would likely be about $2000. It takes 3 days and I finally get a purchase agreement, they want me to pay half of the fees, delivery is mentioned in 4 places in the contract, and there is a clause that I guarantee the airplane to be airworthy, current airworthiness certificate, current condition inspection, that the log books are complete and accurate, and that all service bulletins are complied with. I call him up and ask why he put that I have to pay half the fees, we had agreed that if they wanted an escrow company that they would pay for it, we discussed once again that I would NOT deliver it, and that I will not sign a guarantee for logbooks and everything else. They had already verified that it had an airworthiness certificate, he had seen every log entry including the most recent annual. After a less than friendly conversation he agreed to make the changes to represent our discussion, and professed that the deposit was already wired. Toward the end of the day I get an email with the revised purchase agreement, it still has me paying for half the fees, still says delivery in every spot except one, and still has the clause about log books and airworthiness. I sent him a text and ask why he sent me another purchase agreement that did not represent what we had discussed. I got a reply text that they will now only give me $115k, another $5k less, and will take possession on Monday, when he came to look at it. We then had a heated phone conversation and I very unprofessionally told him I would not sell it to them. There had never been a deposit wired to the escrow company, and it was now after hours on Friday, there was no money in the escrow account.

Another offer was a Piper Aztec trade. Through email, I told the Aztec owner that I would only trade if I could readily sell his plane for at least $120k. He called me frantically excited, proceeded to tell me that he had his Aztec listed for $140, and wouldn't take less than $130. In describing his plane he left the best for last, one engine was past TBO, but "still runs great".

Had one straight up cash offer of $80k. He admitted it was really low, but that's all he had.

One offer to trade a J-3 and a breezy and cash. But when I inquired about how much cash, I never got an answer. And I sure don't want a breezy.


There is one super low ball offer yesterday, that I declined, but then hours later the guy said he wanted to look at it anyway. Then blew up my phone with insults and inuendos to the tune of probably 20 texts, when I said he couldn't pull it out of the hangar and run it. I am not at the airplane, there is another airplane in front of mine that would have to be moved as well. I didn't feel comfortable letting someone I have never met, and don't like (from the arrogant condescending phone calls and texts), move two planes in and out and run mine without me or someone I know there to observe. The only person there is a neighbor that will open up the hangar, he knows nothing about my plane.
I've sold two planes, both word of mouth, no advertising. (I bought the first on an ad from a broker; the second through word of mouth.) In one case, I agreed to ferry it (internationally) for the buyer after the sale went through. I actually was happy to do the ferry. I think they reimbursed me my cost back, but I'm not sure. I suspect that the good planes for sale never show up in the classifieds. With the second plane, it took about 6 months. I just put the word out locally that I would entertain bids and that I'd pay a 10% commission to anyone who brought a buyer (payment on closing). BTW in the first case, the buyer traveled to look at the plane and took it on the spot. He told me that he had wasted an incredible amount of money and time looking at plane that weren't as advertised. So buyers have problems too. For the seller, it might be best to put the word out--while you keep flying. For the buyer, put out the word you're looking and have cash. Mechanics are a great source of information about this sort of thing--and promising them a commission incentivises them further. Don't hurry. Wait. Your deal will appear.
 
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I sold an airplane in October after buying a new one in June. I sold it through a broker with a specialty in my make and model, but I also spent several months “unofficially” selling the plane via word of mouth as I finished transition training in my new bird, got logbooks and other records organized, and otherwise got into the frame of mind to let go of my old plane. I spent a lot of that time being approached by people that were not at all serious.

Once I got the plane listed with the broker, I thought his fee (8%) was awfully high, but I really couldn’t be happier for having gone that route in the end. He took care of the sales listings, all of these tire kickers, all the paperwork, setting up an escrow account, and organizing the logistics of the prebuy and close. He also convinced me that the plane was worth a good deal more than I thought it was, and it sold at the price he suggested (less a couple of small items identified during the prebuy). By itself, that more than paid for his percentage. I’d never do it any other way next time.
That is why I often recommend a broker.

And another thing: Do you live in a state with Sales Tax? I don't know about other States but in Florida you pay sales (use) tax on an airplane. But if you structure a deal where you sell and buy in a single transaction you avoid the amount of the use tax on the sale of your old plane. That's where a broker can be a big help.

eg: Sales tax = 6.5%

Option 1.
Buy a plane for $200k. tax = $13k

Option 2:
Sell old plane for $100k
Buy new plane for $200k Sales tax = $13k - $6.5k = $6.5k net tax.
 
Is purchasing from someone through a type club likely to be less problematic?
 
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