What happened to Southwest?

mcdewey

mcdewey

Line Up and Wait
PoA Supporter
Joined
Jan 14, 2013
Messages
552
Location
Annapolis
Display Name
Display name:
Mike
From the news reports, Southwest has "melted down" during this winter storm. (https://www.npr.org/2022/12/26/1145...nearly-2-800-flights-in-a-full-blown-meltdown). Even the Transportation Department has gotten into criticizing them. (https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy...rtation-department-flights-delayed-nationwide).

At least one traveler asked a passing Southwest captain who said that Southwest is overworking their employees, from the baggage handlers to the flight crew. From several of the articles, it appears the crew scheduling system fell apart.

I've always found Southwest to be the best for my travel (MD<->FL, MD<->CA), so this surprises me.

Any insights from the gang here?
 
mcdewey said:
From the news reports, Southwest has "melted down" during this winter storm. (https://www.npr.org/2022/12/26/1145...nearly-2-800-flights-in-a-full-blown-meltdown). Even the Transportation Department has gotten into criticizing them. (https://www.foxbusiness.com/economy...rtation-department-flights-delayed-nationwide).

At least one traveler asked a passing Southwest captain who said that Southwest is overworking their employees, from the baggage handlers to the flight crew. From several of the articles, it appears the crew scheduling system fell apart.

I've always found Southwest to be the best for my travel (MD<->FL, MD<->CA), so this surprises me.

Any insights from the gang here?
Click to expand...
If you fly SWA a lot, this shouldn't surprise you. They have a severe technology debt.

Their crew scheduling software is from the 90s for a airline the size of SWA back then, not the huge airline it has become.

From what friends there have told me, their scheduling software assumes you flew the flight, until a scheduler manually tells it you didn't. So, if I was supposed to be the pilot from SAN-DAL and my flight cancels, the computer just assumes I did the flight and moves me to DAL. I would have to call Crew Scheduling (CS) and tell them I was still in SAN, and they would update manually in the computer. Now, they could reassign me to another flight out of SAN. Couple that to the fact that CS has a new phone system that doesn't work very well, and crews couldn't even get in touch with CS. They were waiting hours on hold just to let the CS know where they were.

Things got so bad there over the holiday that CS didn't know where any of their crews were throughout the system. They basically lost operational control of the airline.

Apparently, from my friends, they are basically standing down the airline for 2 days, cancelling nearly every flight and rebooting the airline once they can figure out where all their crews are in the system.
 
Found this on reddit. Echoes what @Sluggo63 wrote:

“I have friends in CS and the hotel assignment side too. There were 2 specific problems, the software for scheduling is woefully antiquated by at least 20 years. No app/internet options, all manual entry and it has settings that you DO NOT CHANGE for fear of crashing it. Those settings create the automated flow as a crewmember is moving about their day, it doesn’t know you flew the leg DAL-MCO it just assumes it and moves your piece forward. In the event of a disruption you call scheduling and they manually adjust you. It does work, it just works for an airline 1/3 the size of SWA. So the storm came and it impacted ground ops so bad that many many crews were now “unaccounted” for and the system in place couldn’t keep up. Then it happened for several more days. By Xmas evening the CS department had essentially reached the inability to do anything but simple, one off assignments. And to make matters worse, the phone system was updated not too long ago and it was not working well. Last nite they did a web form and had planned to get the system up as much as possible with what communication they could muster, however it was too much to keep up on and ultimately the method for tracking crews failed again. This 100% is at the feet of all management who refused to invest in technology updates because it is the southwest way to be stuck in 1993.”

From same thread by a SW pilot:

"We’re really trying to get you guys home. I’m so sorry so many of you got this screwed over on your Christmas vacations. This is entirely managements fault. Gary Kelly, and the new CEO, and corporate barons have completely gutted the philosophy Herb believed in, which was investing in employees. They’ve known for months that many crews were stretched to the absolute limit. It was only a matter of time before something caused a cascading series of failures that spiraled out of control. The board and CEO knew this, and chose to instead give themselves multi-million dollar bonuses and threaten to fire staff, along with dragging out contract negotiations with the unions in the hopes there will be a recession. This is corporate mismanagement to a level I’ve never seen in this industry during my 25 years."
 
Flight cancelations/delays by airline:

December 26
upload_2022-12-27_7-44-11.png

December 27
upload_2022-12-27_7-45-6.png

December 28
upload_2022-12-27_7-46-3.png
 
Sluggo63 said:
If you fly SWA a lot, this shouldn't surprise you. They have a severe technology debt.

Their crew scheduling software is from the 90s for a airline the size of SWA back then, not the huge airline it has become.

From what friends there have told me, their scheduling software assumes you flew the flight, until a scheduler manually tells it you didn't. So, if I was supposed to be the pilot from SAN-DAL and my flight cancels, the computer just assumes I did the flight and moves me to DAL. I would have to call Crew Scheduling (CS) and tell them I was still in SAN, and they would update manually in the computer. Now, they could reassign me to another flight out of SAN. Couple that to the fact that CS has a new phone system that doesn't work very well, and crews couldn't even get in touch with CS. They were waiting hours on hold just to let the CS know where they were.

Things got so bad there over the holiday that CS didn't know where any of their crews were throughout the system. They basically lost operational control of the airline.

Apparently, from my friends, they are basically standing down the airline for 2 days, cancelling nearly every flight and rebooting the airline once they can figure out where all their crews are in the system.
Click to expand...


Y'know all that money they saved by not updating their system?

They just lost it.
 
mcdewey said:
From same thread by a SW pilot:

"We’re really trying to get you guys home. I’m so sorry so many of you got this screwed over on your Christmas vacations. This is entirely managements fault. Gary Kelly, and the new CEO, and corporate barons have completely gutted the philosophy Herb believed in, which was investing in employees. They’ve known for months that many crews were stretched to the absolute limit. It was only a matter of time before something caused a cascading series of failures that spiraled out of control. The board and CEO knew this, and chose to instead give themselves multi-million dollar bonuses and threaten to fire staff, along with dragging out contract negotiations with the unions in the hopes there will be a recession. This is corporate mismanagement to a level I’ve never seen in this industry during my 25 years."
Click to expand...
This guy made it sound like a job action as much as anything else.
 
Last edited:
My kid is stuck in Arkansas…her Southwest flight two days from now was just canceled this morning and they have nothing to rebook until the first of January. Other options including Airports in a 250 mile radius are all 2k$ one way for a flight…they have imploded the system and Spirit looking good in comparison…
 
Last edited:
Part of it is that their network flight schedule makes them more susceptible to disruptions. A large storm can affect every flight going through it, even if it's just one stop. I flew on the 24th and even not being in the storm, there were disruptions and we were about 3 hours behind schedule.

Based on the number of software engineers they hire, they're writing a lot of their own software. That might explain the lack of flexibility in some of their reactions present and past.
 
Likewise my wife is on the way home from the airport from a four day, a United flight attendant that overnighted in Rapid City, Ft Meyers and Omaha…going through both Denver and Chicago…the crew waived duty days twice to make flights happen ( Also have a hotel room to sleep in…) ground zero for this weather…I suspect it’s more than a management issue…
 
Maybe I was just younger and my perception wasn’t as good, but it seemed like Southwest used to be more predictable than it is now. I feel like their growth has outpaced their logistical capabilities and support.

I don’t think this has anything to do with their point-to-point style of network, as the hub and spoke model is subject to the same issues. This seems more like a management issue than anything.
 
They've been one of the more expensive options for me in the last few years.. I seldom bother checking them anymore. I think I grabbed one flight with them this year. Strangely United has been winning my no-loyalty biz a lot.

I'm sort of watching in horror though as an IT system unravels and may tank an entire business. Gonna be an expensive quarter for LUV that's for sure.

And that rooster wagon who scolded the denver ground crew about taking sick time leading to termination -- hope he gets some bonus home time to consider how you treat employees in a seller's market.
 
schmookeeg said:
They've been one of the more expensive options for me in the last few years.. I seldom bother checking them anymore.
Click to expand...
Which is interesting, because they used to be one of the cheapest. Nearly every time, their ‘wanna get away’ fares were the cheapest of most every competitor. I agree that those days seem to be gone. It seems they’ve gone from a so-called low cost carrier, to the leagues of one of the big three.
 
MauleSkinner said:
This guy made it sound like a job action as much as anything else.
Click to expand...
Not a job action, to be sure. Pilots are sitting back and watching SWA management create their own job action.

From just talking to my friends, SWA pilots aren't really willing to go "the extra mile" these days, and I don't blame them. Yes, they're in contract talks that have stalled, yada, yada, yada. But, all my buds that are SWA are tired of the reroutes because, like the poster you quoted said, "crews are stretched to the absolute limit."

They have things at SWA called JA (Junior Assigned) and "jet bridge assigned." If they catch you at the end of a trip on the jetway to reassign you, you can not turn it down, you have to take the revision. SWA guys are known through out the industry for "hustling" to make more money. They are notorious for picking up extra trips to pad their paycheck. It's a SWA pilot culture thing (I don't get it, but hey...). The problem is, for the past year or more, guys have picked up a one-day turn where they just fly from their domicile to another airport or two, and return home at the end of the day. Easy money and they get to sleep in their bed. The problem has become where guys and gals who picked up those one day turns, now get jet bridge assigned to a mutli-day trip where they're gone for three days. Pilots have had enough of those shenanigans and aren't willing to roll the dice on how long they'll be on the road if they pick up a one-day.

That's what that pilot means by being stretched to the limit. Not a job action, though. Just pilots having had enough of being screwed and deciding the extra coin isn't worth it.
 
Sluggo63 said:
From just talking to my friends, SWA pilots aren't really willing to go "the extra mile" these days, and I don't blame them.
Click to expand...
Blame them or don't, but I don't think pilots who admittedly aren't willing to go the extra mile should complain about others gutting Herb's philosophy.
 
Last edited:
Sluggo63 said:
Not a job action, to be sure. Pilots are sitting back and watching SWA management create their own job action.

From just talking to my friends, SWA pilots aren't really willing to go "the extra mile" these days, and I don't blame them. Yes, they're in contract talks that have stalled, yada, yada, yada. But, all my buds that are SWA are tired of the reroutes because, like the poster you quoted said, "crews are stretched to the absolute limit."

They have things at SWA called JA (Junior Assigned) and "jet bridge assigned." If they catch you at the end of a trip on the jetway to reassign you, you can not turn it down, you have to take the revision. SWA guys are known through out the industry for "hustling" to make more money. They are notorious for picking up extra trips to pad their paycheck. It's a SWA pilot culture thing (I don't get it, but hey...). The problem is, for the past year or more, guys have picked up a one-day turn where they just fly from their domicile to another airport or two, and return home at the end of the day. Easy money and they get to sleep in their bed. The problem has become where guys and gals who picked up those one day turns, now get jet bridge assigned to a mutli-day trip where they're gone for three days. Pilots have had enough of those shenanigans and aren't willing to roll the dice on how long they'll be on the road if they pick up a one-day.

That's what that pilot means by being stretched to the limit. Not a job action, though. Just pilots having had enough of being screwed and deciding the extra coin isn't worth it.
Click to expand...
I’m not disagreeing, but when one bring things like contract negotiations into a discussion about disrupted schedules, the impression is here.

Somebody from the union should probably have a discussion with the pilot who posted it.
 
Last edited:
Lindberg said:
Blame them out don't, but I don't think pilots who admittedly aren't willing to go the extra mile should complain about others gutting Herb's philosophy.
Click to expand...
I think that's a "chicken or the egg" type discussion. If you talk to the crews (pilots and FAs) and the ground staff (there's a memo floating around from a ground services manager to DIA ground workers that definitely sounds "anti-Herb"), it's the lack of "Herb-like" leadership that is causing workers to not really want to go the extra mile.

Basically, though, what was once a small, quaint little regional airline in Texas is now a full-fledged major airline much like Delta, United, and American (but they still operate like they're that small airline).
 
Dang. I liked Southwest. They flew to the places I usually fly to. Great rewards program. Can’t remember the last time I ‘bought’ a ticket. Easy to get on and get good seats if you check in 24 hours before ETD.
 
Lindberg said:
Blame them out don't, but I don't think pilots who admittedly aren't willing to go the extra mile should complain about others gutting Herb's philosophy.
Click to expand...
There comes a point when “the extra mile” has been a part of the plan for so long that it’s no longer “the extra mile,” it’s simply bad planning.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I think that's a "chicken or the egg" type discussion. If you talk to the crews (pilots and FAs) and the ground staff (there's a memo floating around from a ground services manager to DIA ground workers that definitely sounds "anti-Herb"), it's the lack of "Herb-like" leadership that is causing workers to not really want to go the extra mile.

Basically, though, what was once a small, quaint little regional airline in Texas is now a full-fledged major airline much like Delta, United, and American (but they still operate like they're that small airline).
Click to expand...
As I tell my kids, it doesn't matter who started it. If you want the airline to have a Herb-like culture, behave Herb-like. If you don't care, then don't. If you don't care, then you don't care. Work anyplace long enough, and the culture will change, and we all contribute to it. I'm not saying I'm unsympathetic to not working hard for bosses who don't deserve it, but that's a two-way street.

And Southwest is certainly bigger than it once was, but it was the busiest domestic carrier even when Herb had the reins.
 
Awesome. This is basically the use case that justifies my entire career field. Now I have another 15 second elevator speech for my back pocket.
 
MauleSkinner said:
There comes a point when “the extra mile” has been a part of the plan for so long that it’s no longer “the extra mile,” it’s simply bad planning.
Click to expand...
There's always been something of a "fix it in the mix" attitude at Southwest, and yes, that includes planning for people to go the extra mile. But it also means you don't have to build everything for the busiest day in the next decade. That's a choice, and it works until it doesn't.There's also a lot of folks at Southwest, throughout the ranks, who were never part of the old-school Southwest culture, and maybe recognition of that should factor into planning.

But damn, if I were head of the union in the middle of a negotiation and this happened, I'd call the CEO and tell him, "Our members stand ready to do whatever you need us to do to get things running smoothly again." Seems like that might foster a belief that everyone's actually on the same team and looking out for the company's interests, which could only benefit me on the negotiations. And yet, what they usually say is, "**** you, pay me." Maybe that's why I'll never lead a union. And maybe that's only what they're saying publicly.
 
Last edited:
Accusing people of illegal job actions on a rando message board sounds like management hack shenanigans. I didnt know the FordHarrison 50 cent army types trolled recreational pilot boards too. Im not even an a-word guy and i can see that hackery a mile away. Not today Bob Jordan, not today...
 
hindsight2020 said:
Accusing people of illegal job actions on a rando message board sounds like management hack shenanigans. I didnt know the FordHarrison 50 cent army types trolled recreational pilot boards too. Im not even an a-word guy and i can see that hackery a mile away. Not today Bob Jordan, not today...
Click to expand...
Who’s accusing?
 
hindsight2020 said:
Accusing people of illegal job actions on a rando message board sounds like management hack shenanigans. I didnt know the FordHarrison 50 cent army types trolled recreational pilot boards too. Im not even an a-word guy and i can see that hackery a mile away. Not today Bob Jordan, not today...
Click to expand...
This board has pilots of all types, not just recreational ones (and some controllers too).

The mix of different segments of aviation is one of the things I like about it.
 
Sluggo63 said:
I think that's a "chicken or the egg" type discussion. If you talk to the crews (pilots and FAs) and the ground staff (there's a memo floating around from a ground services manager to DIA ground workers that definitely sounds "anti-Herb"), it's the lack of "Herb-like" leadership that is causing workers to not really want to go the extra mile...
Click to expand...
This is not limited to airlines. The F100 company I work for has spent the last five years, to quote the CHRO and CEO, “correcting for an over-investment in our workforce.” We went from a destination employer to an almost pariah because

Sluggo63 said:
…Basically, though, what was once a small, quaint little regional airline in Texas is now a full-fledged major airline much like Delta, United, and American (but they still operate like they're that small airline).
Click to expand...

is what we’ve done in our industry, too. The challenge is decisions made around past IT strategies for critical systems were seen an too costly to abandon. Since 1992, so much has changed in that realm that, if you’re still using a proprietary in-house solution, there’s likely very few people who can actually program in that language and, more importantly, you can’t really integrate with modern systems. What a decade ago could have been small investments over a few years is now orders of magnitude more complex and expensive to replace.

The operational problems these antiquated systems pose are magnified by their inevitable (direct or indirect) negative impact on customers which is funneled back on the front-line employee who then wonders why the company so heavily invests in IT yet can’t rely on it to reliably do the job, so it’s interesting to watch the people who’ve been told the company “over-invested ” in them react.

Not unlike the morale impact pilot banking and TAMI21 had on the AF pilot force.
 
Sluggo63 said:
They have things at SWA called JA (Junior Assigned) and "jet bridge assigned." If they catch you at the end of a trip on the jetway to reassign you, you can not turn it down, you have to take the revision.
Click to expand...

Back when i was mulling entertaining a 121 transition, i found out about that little gem. At first i thought that was just regional airline fodder, Nope. Big airlines do it too. Thats a hard pass for me dawg. I didn't give up 20 years of literal life agency starting in my late 20 with .mil, just to eat another 10 of that guano in my 50s because "bUh SeNiOriTy".

Im just being generic with that comment btw. It is my understanding not all airlines contractually abuse their chatel like that. My workplace is plurality SWA, so im already well read on the tricks they pull on the regular in order to notch the JA, and thats before i bring up the civilian antagonizing angle (same month tactical mil-drop). Seems a bit unbecoming to feign fatigue in order to get out of that ludicrous contractual trap, but i guess thats why ill have to do something else in my 50s. Lord knows id quit a job i dont need for less, now that i think about it, i might make a great DEN swa ramper right about now :D too soon?
 
Southwest has obviously been in the worst shape this Christmas. That said, I can tell you that the overall travel infrastructure was pushed past capacity, and I'm doubting it'll get resolved before New Years.

We (my wife, kids, and me) left KC for NYC to visit my mom 12/18 on Delta. We had a flight home 12/22, sans my wife, who was heading back to work and her planes were in NYC so she was already there. That flight got cancelled for unknown reasons. The plane had what looked like a MX delay somewhere earlier in the day (or maybe crew shortage?) and I'm guessing the crew timed out or there was some other issue that forced it. They couldn't book me on another flight until 12/24, and that was going to have 1 or 2 connections (at this point I forget which). There were literally no flights available 12/23 that I could find. I ended up deciding to go to JetBlue (who offered non-stop flights) for 12/24. That flight cancelled, and they, again, couldn't book us on another flight for 2 days, on 12/26. That flight was 2 hours delayed, but we got home last night/this morning. 2:30 AM landing, 3:30 AM got our checked bag (I never check bags - this is why), and home at 4:15 AM. Because we missed Christmas night, I then had to put all of the Santa presents out for my kids and went to bed around 5, to get woken up at 8:30. There is not enough coffee.

But more to the point, there were literally no other reasonable options. I checked all airlines, trains, busses, rental cars. No capacity on any of them whatsoever. I couldn't even rent a car on 12/25 to drive out to Long Island (my wife ended up flying into the Hamptons, so we wanted to go catch up with her), because no cars available, and the LIRR only had one train that day to get out there. On 12/24 it looked like >50% of the JetBlue flights were delayed, and a good number cancelled. Looking at the FlightAware stats yesterday, JetBlue was over 50% delayed, but under 10% cancelled. I would've been happy landing at sunup at that point.

It is, by orders of magnitude, the biggest cluster**** I've ever seen on travel in my life. I've had delays and cancellations before, but the longest it ever cost me was an overnight, and usually only a couple of hours. Other options existed to grab a one-way rental car or something like that. I was literally down to having to buy a car to drive home as my other option and was stuck an extra 4 days in NYC, literally doubling the trip duration.

With that said, now that we don't have our own plane anymore (and my wife has to fly commercial to get to and from her planes at least once a week) the reality is that commercial has mostly been fine with enough options, enough seats, and minimal disruptions. But I'll admit this has me looking at 310s again.
 
Last edited:
hindsight2020 said:
Back when i was mulling entertaining a 121 transition, i found out about that little gem. At first i thought that was just regional airline fodder, Nope. Big airlines do it too. Thats a hard pass for me dawg. I didn't give up 20 years of literal life agency starting in my late 20 with .mil, just to eat another 10 of that guano in my 50s because "bUh SeNiOriTy".

Im just being generic with that comment btw. It is my understanding not all airlines contractually abuse their chatel like that. My workplace is plurality SWA, so im already well read on the tricks they pull on the regular in order to notch the JA, and thats before i bring up the civilian antagonizing angle (same month tactical mil-drop). Seems a bit unbecoming to feign fatigue in order to get out of that ludicrous contractual trap, but i guess thats why ill have to do something else in my 50s. Lord knows id quit a job i dont need for less, now that i think about it, i might make a great DEN swa ramper right about now :D too soon?
Click to expand...
Uh....translation please?
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
We will run our as/400 system forever. You can't have it!!
Click to expand...
Had to get something from the locked storeroom at Costco yesterday. System is running a DOS port on a Windows system....one of the managers said "ancient, but it still does what we need it to do!" all the while laughing at the technology.
 
I've had a RT Southwest flight booked DEN-LGA for a couple months (mid-Jan trip). I have no doubt things will clear up by then but....I just changed to United (gritting my teeth the whole time) because it flies into Newark. It's easier to take the train into mid-town than the jumble of bus/train/whatever or an Uber or a cab from LaGuardia, then back to JFK later in the week. Saved about $100, too.
 
murphey said:
Had to get something from the locked storeroom at Costco yesterday. System is running a DOS port on a Windows system....one of the managers said "ancient, but it still does what we need it to do!" all the while laughing at the technology.
Click to expand...
Unfortunately I can't say our system is newer than Southwest's. We are running out of people that know how to program it.
 
One issue that got this mess rolling on the 21st, is that SWA apparently owned 5 de-ice trucks at MSP and all 5 were broken/down for maintenance that day.

SWAs flight schedules were already being significantly stressed before the big freeze on the 22nd that affected many of the majors.

Management put them in a bad spot right going into the holiday rush.

I have several friends who fly for Southwest and I feel for them. Hopefully management will use this opportunity to turn things around.
 
murphey said:
Had to get something from the locked storeroom at Costco yesterday. System is running a DOS port on a Windows system....one of the managers said "ancient, but it still does what we need it to do!" all the while laughing at the technology.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't be surprised if it's less vulnerable to a cyberattack than anything written in the past decade. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top