What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field?

[FORANE]

Just wondering what it takes to get a new LPV approach procedure. These do not require any ground based hardware, correct?

I presume I will never see one at my home field (0A9) due to terrain proximity; is this a correct presumption? Do LPV approaches require more stringent terrain clearance to get implemented?

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

Just wondering what it takes to get a new LPV approach procedure.

John Collins can tell you,, and I suspect he'll be along presently with the answer, although mostly it's money -- about $30K, IIRC, to get it surveyed, created, flight checked, and published. That money comes from the FAA if you're a designated reliever airport, but it may have to come from the airport's coffers otherwise.

These do not require any ground based hardware, correct?

Correct, although there are certain runway lighting and marking requirements.

Do LPV approaches require more stringent terrain clearance to get implemented?

No more stringent than an ILS. However, you might get an LNAV approach with only VOR-like obstacle clearance requirements.

 

[FORANE]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

John Collins can tell you,, and I suspect he'll be along presently with the answer, although mostly it's money -- about $30K, IIRC, to get it surveyed, created, flight checked, and published. That money comes from the FAA if you're a designated reliever airport, but it may have to come from the airport's coffers otherwise.

Correct, although there are certain runway lighting and marking requirements.

No more stringent than an ILS. However, you might get an LNAV approach with only VOR-like obstacle clearance requirements.

Thanks Ron.

Yes, we have a LNAV approach which was implemented around 5-6 years ago if I recall but it has a MDA of around 1700 AGL. Just wondering if there was much hope of improving on that a little.

 

[James331]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

I'd wager as time goes on most all airports with RNAV approaches will be sporting LPVs too.

 

[Velocity173]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

I'd say since they did the assessment for the LNAV it probably didn't meet the criteria for LPV. You've got pretty good terrain issues there and some nice antennas in the approach cooridors to rwy 6.

At 1A3 we've got the same problem. Terrain is too high but we meet the requirements for an LP approach. Not that it really matters because the LP doesn't get you down that much further than the LNAV. Used to shoot the LPV all the time when I was based at SYL. Awesome being able to shoot a precision to a little airport in the middle of nowhere.

 

[James331]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

Used to shoot the LPV all the time when I was based at SYL. Awesome being able to shoot a precision to a little airport in the middle of nowhere.

"Precision LIKE approach" :wink2:

 

[Velocity173]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

"Precision LIKE approach" :wink2:

I agree. Precision like. Or quasi precision approach. Still, with a good signal I trust that thing.

 

[James331]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

I agree. Precision like. Or quasi precision approach. Still, with a good signal I trust that thing.

Me too, but it's still technically not a precision approach.

 

[jordane93]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

Lots of money.

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

Yes, we have a LNAV approach which was implemented around 5-6 years ago if I recall but it has a MDA of around 1700 AGL. Just wondering if there was much hope of improving on that a little.

If your LNAV approach has a 1700 HAT, it's not likely you'll be able to get a much better LPV, but

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

I'd wager as time goes on most all airports with RNAV approaches will be sporting LPVs too.

Only if they start cutting down the surrounding terrain/obstructions. The biggest issue where there's an LNAV but not LPV is probably obstructions in the 40:1 (or is it 34:1? John knows) clearance plane up from the runway. Depending on what's out there, you might do better than LNAV with an LP, but that's just a guess, and it will still be ."drop and drive, level and look" with around 400 HAT at best (although that would still be a lot better than 1700 HAT). Just depends on what's out there, and I'm not that familiar with 0A9.

But after further review of the RNAV 6 there, I'm wondering if the limiting factor isn't the obstructions approaching the airport, but rather those on the missed, and better lateral precision or added vertical guidance on the final segment won't fix that.

 

[Gucci Pilot]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

Because of terrain, there are cases where vertically guided approaches can have higher minimums than those without vertical guidance.

In order to establish an approach the local FAA office has to determine that an instrument approach will benefit more than one user.

A reasonable need is if one of these two have a need:
1. A certificated air carrier, air taxi, commercial operator, or
2. Two or more operators whose activities are directly related to the commerce of the community

Requests are accepted from any aviation source, provided the request indicates the airport owner/operator has been notified of the request. (Such notification is necessary only when the request is for an original procedure to an airport not already served by an approach procedure.) The FAA will advise airport owners/operators of additional requests for procedures.

Then the process of creating the approach begins.

 

[aterpster]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

I'd wager as time goes on most all airports with RNAV approaches will be sporting LPVs too.

Nope. A runway cannot have VNAV, ILS, or LPV unless the glideslope qualification surface (GQS) meets TERPs specs.

Also, the WAAS fund is depleted so there will be no new WAAS IAPs until at least 2017. Amendments can occur, but not new procedures.

Finally, if a procedure does not meet GQS specs, it may or may not have a VDA (LNAV+V or LP+V) depending on flight inspection's judgment of the trees and other obstacles below MDA. We are seeing more and more VDAs nixed by flight inspection.

 

[somorris]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

Me too, but it's still technically not a precision approach.

That is correct, James331. I knew that but didn't know why until this morning. An article I read (IFR or IFR Refresher, can't remember which right now) said it was because the approaches didn't meet ICAO protocol or regs, not the FAA regs. Anybody here know whether or not this is true?

 

[aterpster]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

That is correct, James331. I knew that but didn't know why until this morning. An article I read (IFR or IFR Refresher, can't remember which right now) said it was because the approaches didn't meet ICAO protocol or regs, not the FAA regs. Anybody here know whether or not this is true?

It is more of less that way. But, it will change as LPV approaches populate Europe. In this country LPV uses the exact vertical and horizontal TERPS area that are used for Category I ILS.

...if it walks like a duck....

 

[chemgeek]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

Just wondering what it takes to get a new LPV approach procedure. These do not require any ground based hardware, correct?

I presume I will never see one at my home field (0A9) due to terrain proximity; is this a correct presumption? Do LPV approaches require more stringent terrain clearance to get implemented?

A good airport consultant can get you in the queue and get grant funding as required. It helps to have an airport master plan and activity measures, reliever status etc. We had to put in AWOS to be seriously considered.

You might be surprised about how efficiently you can squeeze in an LPV approach. We are surrounded by 500 AGL hills and windmills at 1200 AGL off one departure. Looks kinda grim, really. We have HATs of about 250 and 350 on the two approaches. Our main problem is a hill and one large tree about 1 mile from the runway that requires a >3.0 degree slope and operating PAPIs at night. Otherwise, the basic LNAV is essentially VFR, >1000 HAT.

The LPVs have been transformational for airport activity and utility. We were one of the first under the newest TERPs which created a few extra delays getting up and running.

 

[Henning]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

It is more of less that way. But, it will change as LPV approaches populate Europe. In this country LPV uses the exact vertical and horizontal TERPS area that are used for Category I ILS.

...if it walks like a duck....

It's also why I believe the FAA does allow them to count as Precision Approaches in the context of an IFR Checkride.

 

[poadeleted20]

Re: What does it take to put in a LPV approach? Will I ever see one at my home field

It's also why I believe the FAA does allow them to count as Precision Approaches in the context of an IFR Checkride.

Only that LPV has a HAT of 300 or less. So, at my home field, you could do that with the RNAV 32 but not the RNAV 23.