What do i need to know about *building* a new experimental plane

Discussion in 'Home Builders and Sport Pilots' started by WannFly, Nov 24, 2018.

  1. iamtheari

    iamtheari Cleared for Takeoff

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    I decided to go one-stop shopping for my tools. I could have bought the dimpler and squeezer separately. The joke is on me because I still had to buy other things. But that is going to happen no matter what. I sometimes wish I had a 2X rivet gun instead of a 3X because I turn the 3X down so low for #3 rivets and rarely turn it above 2 (it goes up to 6). But that's not an impediment. A higher-quality (Sioux or equivalent) drill would be nice. The one Isham gives you has less controllability over slow speed, it's almost an on-or-off proposition. And the backrivet set I got from Isham could have used a stronger spring and a narrower sidewall on the business end, so I bought another one of those. But ultimately, the tools I have are good and there aren't really any that I dislike. And they are a pretty complete set for the plane I am building. Most of the additional tools I have bought have been reamers (.311 and .375 sizes), a #20 drill bit, a tight-fit drill kit to remove my control column mounting brackets and replace the bearings, a super expensive Unibit to drill the brake fittings through the firewall (RV-14 taildragger only), and bucking bars.
     
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  2. Skyrys62

    Skyrys62 Pattern Altitude

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    Quislings!
     
  3. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Most have a sl30 or sl40 for backup
     
  4. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Yea my neighbor building the RV14 said to get a 2X rivet gun - basically all he uses. Hear a lot about those Sioux drills. I've thought about doing that EAA sheet metal course just to get some more exposure to this stuff, but I'm nowhere near a position to be building an airplane lol. I think it would be more to fill my curiosity.
     
  5. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    I believe the Cleaveland kit comes with a Sioux drill btw...I'd be tempted to go the Cleaveland route and add the dimpler and pneumatic squezer, but I'm just talking out my rear end :p
     
  6. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    You can splice the wire from WAAS of the 650 and provide it to G5. About dual ADAHRS, I was reading someone’s build log and he said that since G5 can provide it to G3X, he won’t be doing a dual ADAHRS, I am not if that means the G3X won’t automatically take the data from G5 when it’s own dies.
     
  7. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    The real question is...why do I love tools so much? I really enjoy looking at tools online and dreaming about building an airplane I will probably never build LOL
     
  8. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Uh man don’t ask... so many decisions in life... for now I am working on my garage, whether I build or not, for now I want a heated garage finally!! One step at a time man... haven’t decided on the build yet... it’s ya know... very intimidating
     
  9. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    The 10 is not prepunched right?
     
  10. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    HAHA. No kidding. Idk man. I think it would be a lot of fun, but a real test of patience (which is not a virtue I have particularly mastered yet). I'd need to really take some baby steps (EAA classes, etc) before I even considered something like that. Even then, I feel like I would be over my head. I am a perfectionist and very OCD. I think electrical wiring, panel layout, etc would maybe drive me insane. I'd like to think that maybe someday I can consider building though.

    I really wanted to do the airfoil kit and the toolbox kit, but once I realized how much $ in tools you needed I figured I better hold off and put that money towards my flight training ha.
     
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  11. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    I have a quote from both, price diff is fairly big, still nothing when you add up everything you got to buy, price for isham with those two upgrades is same at cleaveland without the upgrades and then it goes up from there.

    On a diff note, I must say that it’s incredible to see this thread haven’t turned into a pizzing match of some sort yet and we are still on POA... wow!!
     
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  12. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Yea Isham is like $2500 and Cleaveland is $2750. Add the dimpler and pneumatic squeezer to Cleaveland and your another ~$1000 into it. Still seems rather minor compared to the total cost. But then again...I'm a bit of a sucker.
     
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  13. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    So here is a question one of you building aficionados can maybe answer. EAA has a workshop for Electrical Systems and for Sheet Metal here in Phoenix...but they are both on the same days - Feb 23rd & 24th. Why would they do this? You can only attend one or the other? Or can you take both classes?

    Nevermind...found my answer:

    Can I take more than one workshop at a location on one weekend?
    You are only able to take one workshop each weekend. Each workshop is a full two days in length.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 5:12 PM
  14. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    It gets to about 3800 from cleaveland
     
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  15. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Just do it.
     
  16. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    Be glad they have one, if I want to attend one I have to either go to Maryland in January or sometime later in Vegas... I think Vegas makes more sense for a single guy
     
  17. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Yea I was thinking I could fly to Vegas for one and then do the other here in Phoenix.
     
  18. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    I guess the question becomes...is it pointless to take a sheet metal class if you have no intention of building an airplane anytime soon...probably would be better to take one closer to when you were wanting to actually build something. The classes are rather cheap, guess you could always take the course twice.

    Anyways...sorry to hijack your thread lol
     
  19. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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    Everything in the lineup above the RV-7 is prepunched (including the -10). The difference is that the -12 and -14 are punched to size, so you don't have to ream (i.e. drill to size and perfect fit) all of the holes.

    The challenge with the -10 is all of the fiberglass. The cabin top has to fit the fuselage and the doors have to be made to fit both the metal fuselage and the fiberglass cabin top. It is a challenge.
     
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  20. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    After all that I couldn't afford CLEAR tape. ;) Actually, I've started experimenting with the print and rub down labels. Maybe by Easter it will look right.
     
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  21. Sam D

    Sam D Cleared for Takeoff

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    I took the sheet metal class and I'm building a tube and fabric plane. But its still got nutplates and some aluminum in side panels and other areas.

    To your other question about 2 classes at the same time, I think its kind of the EAA travelling roadshow so they do them all at the same time. I opted for sheetmetal first because I figured it would come before fabric covering and wiring stuff. If you're thinking about an RV build this class is a great way to get your feet wet...and you don't need to buy all the equipment first.
     
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  22. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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    What system are you using? I've waffled on how to label the panel on the -10. On my -6, I got a local vinyl shop to cut the labels in white vinyl, pick the trash out, attach the words to a transfer sheet, and apply to the panel. So, probably 250 individual little bitty vinyl letters are stuck on my panel. I was worried they wouldn't hold up, but I've lost exactly one letter in nearly 18 years.

    I may do the same thing again.
     
  23. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Pattern Altitude

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    Check out this place:

    placards-c.html

    I did my panel with water-slide decals, covered with a few coats of matte clear, but recently a few of the characters have started to flake off/abrade. So I think I'll use this place at some point to make placard overlays. Big selection of finishes, materials, etc.
     
  24. Ravioli

    Ravioli Final Approach

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    Ask that Q over on VAF. My understanding is the 6 was the last model that needed to be match drilled. From 7 on they were pre-drilled.

    Not sure what punching is. pre or post.
     
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  25. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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    Honestly, I prefer something that can be changed a little easier. That seems to point me back to a local sign/vinyl shop. There are some beautiful panels and sub-panels out there done with things like decalpro, but I'm more of an airplane guy than a panel guy. If everything works, looks good, and is reasonably easy to re-label when I change something, I'm good with that.
     
  26. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    Perhaps the holes aren’t drilled but punched?

    Anyway, yes, all models 7,8,9,10,12, and 14 are ‘cut and holed’ with CNC equipment meaning no layout, no jigging, and straight components.

    The composite top is a challenge because it is completely different than the sheet metal work and because in the beginning, the parts were pretty crude. The top has gone through 1 or more improvement cycles and now seems worthy of the rest of the kit. Not a core competency so I guess there was a learning curve.

    ... and it wasn’t that hard in the end, just a different skill set.




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  27. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    I never figure out the right solution for my labeling my panel. I’m in the middle of an upgrade but this picture shows where I am now. Most of the labeling was done with custom switch and indicator light tops ordered from somewhere.

    I originally printed the remaining panel labels on clear inkjet stock and just stuck them on. They got me thru the flyoff and several years flying looking pretty good.

    I replaced those with having the graphics screen printed (or whatever process was actually used) on thin plastic I had painted to match the panel. They don’t look totally pro but considerably better than other solutions. The key is requiring a minimum of labeling.

    BTW, just test flew the upgraded panel today with the big screen. Sweet!
    [​IMG]


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  28. Bill Watson

    Bill Watson Pattern Altitude

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    And here’s the original panel.
    [​IMG]



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  29. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    I met a guy the other week who has built and fly a 9A , he didn’t take any classes, but that doesn’t mean other people like me won’t need it
     
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  30. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    They are pretty cheap for a 2 day course. I would think it would be well worth it
     
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  31. iamtheari

    iamtheari Cleared for Takeoff

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    As I understand it, the G5 has its own GPS receiver, and can use an external GPS position source like the G3X or the GTN 650. If the external source fails and you don't have a GPS antenna on the G5, then it will not have GPS data, but (unlike the Aspen PFD), it will continue to calculate your attitude and present you with your primary flight instruments despite the loss of GPS data.

    As far as the G3X switching to the G5 when its ADAHRS dies, that apparently only happens if the ADAHRS is dead. "Inaccurate" or "in disagreement with the G5" does not count as dead. So you have to cross-check the G5 display with the G3X display just like you have a scan and cross-check in steam gauge flying. If the G3X has dual ADAHRS, it will indicate when they disagree beyond a certain tolerance. Then the pilot has to decide which instrument to trust. Again, same as your steam gauge cross-check and interpretation, just easier for your brain to process because all of the instruments show attitude.

    If you have two ADAHRS units, apparently the default is for PFD #1 to show ADAHRS #1 data and PFD #2 or MFD #1 (when showing attitude) to show ADAHRS #2 data. So you can have three independent attitude and air data sources being displayed on your panel at once to cross-check. And you can also turn off the ADAHRS units and, if you run out of them, the G3X will then display the G5's data. Knowing this last bit is important for me because it means that I need to plan a way to turn off the ADAHRS units separately from the rest of the panel. I had planned to put ADAHRS #1 and PFD #1 on a shared circuit in the VPX (solid-state circuit breaker replacement) but now I need to re-plan my circuit assignments so that the ADAHRS units have their own circuit breakers that I can manually turn off if they are acting up.
     
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  32. WannFly

    WannFly En-Route

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    makes sense. the internal GPS is disabled for the certificated installs, wonder what happens when the external one fails... I have to try it out in flight. actually, in last XC, I lost GPS for about 10 mins (oh the horrors when the magenta line disappears ), G5 didn't went belly up, so there must be some mechanism built in. anyway, good to know about the ADAHRS and the benefits of having dual in the panel + g5. about breaker, can you not do a toggle switch to kill the ADAHRS instead of a new circuit?

    feel free to tell me I don't know what I am talking about.... 'cuz I don't :p
     
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  33. iamtheari

    iamtheari Cleared for Takeoff

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    I'm planning to use a Vertical Power VP-X system in lieu of circuit breakers. It also handles switching. So you have a limited number of switch inputs to the VP-X and a limited number of circuit outputs that it can control. You can program it to assign multiple circuits to one switch if you want. (For example, I am planning a switch with positions Nav/Off/Nav+Strobe, which will electrically be two switch inputs to the VP-X and it will have two outputs, Nav and Strobe, but the Nav+Strobe switch will turn on both those outputs.)

    Putting the ADAHRS on its own switch would probably be overkill. You interact with the VP-X's virtual circuit breakers through the MFD. So unless the MFD is also dead, you will be able to turn off the ADAHRS without having a physical switch on the panel to do that. It doesn't mean I won't put a switch in, but I am trying to minimize and simplify switches. My "abnormal operations" switch cluster is already big enough...Stick disable (3 positions so the buttons on either stick can be disabled), alternate static (a little valve that looks like a metal toggle switch), EFIS reversion, trim Alt/Norm (in Alt mode it disconnects the VP-X trim controller from the servo and instead direct wires the next switch), and Trim Up/Down. I want a very clean panel without a thousand switches on it. :)
     
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  34. SoCal RV Flyer

    SoCal RV Flyer Pattern Altitude

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    Confession: I have a few switches that are completely unlabeled!! :eek::eek: Oh, the horror!
    They are switches of different types/sizes, located well away from my main bank of toggles. I'm sure they'll get labels eventually.

    But seeing that I'm the only guy who flies it, I'm good with that.
     
  35. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    VPX is awesome. My neighbor building the RV14 gave me a "tour" of how it worked on his Dynon SkyView HDX. Really cool stuff.
     
  36. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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    Both of the guys I know locally who used it had AOG incidents because of it.

    Have a backup plan for the day you're on top, or in the weather, or away from home and it goes down.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018 at 8:22 PM
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  37. CC268

    CC268 Final Approach

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    Oh Kyle, I know I know...you got the best RV in town and anyone who configures their RV different from yours is silly! ;)
     
  38. iamtheari

    iamtheari Cleared for Takeoff

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    Can you share some more detail on the failures they experienced?
     
  39. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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    One, in particular, had a total failure of the VPX. The box died the first time he left the pattern in Phase 1. Lost comm, lost txp, and on down the line. The manufacturer of the VPX blamed faulty or poor quality components in the VPX. It was a new unit when the builder bought it, but had been superseded prior to first flight.

    The other, had random problems with electrical things. Flaps wouldn't do this, something else wouldn't do that. The problems were intermittent. They eventually concluded that the VPX was the problem, sent it back, got the reworked (or new) one, and everything has been fine since.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2018 at 8:23 PM
  40. kyleb

    kyleb En-Route

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    Not at all. I do have personal preferences, hopefully well thought out, and the idea of adding a(nother) single point of failure for everything electrical on the airplane isn't something I like. That's why I suggest having a backup plan, at least for critical systems.

    Fundamentally, my RV-6 is VFR only, so I don't need a lot of redundancy in systems.

    The RV-10 will have much more built in redundancy from an electronic standpoint.
     
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