What do i need to know about *building* a new experimental plane

Bill Watson said:
The support within the builder community, delivered via the Web, is fantastic. That’s where the good stuff is as long as you are selective.
Click to expand...

Bolded the important part. As with any internet discussions you have a multitude of responses to filter through and take what you want from it. You'll learn who gives out level unbiased information and who has almost a religious zealot view on a particular subject. As an example I posted a picture and video of the Airhorn I put on 10. Some thought it was neat, some were concerned about the weight, one person even felt it was a safety issues for pedestrians that might hear it and fall over and hit their head.
 
jaymark6655 said:
Another vote for the RV-10....Most I can ever price out one is $130K, but planned on using the GRT cockpit.
Click to expand...

At that cost, you'll need a slow build kit, and no paint ( or DIY paint) and probably a used engine. Almost certainly 2 outta 3.

Be realistic. The engine, prop, and firewall forward stuff will set you back $65k new.
 
OkieAviator said:
Bolded the important part. As with any internet discussions you have a multitude of responses to filter through and take what you want from it. You'll learn who gives out level unbiased information and who has almost a religious zealot view on a particular subject. As an example I posted a picture and video of the Airhorn I put on 10. Some thought it was neat, some were concerned about the weight, one person even felt it was a safety issues for pedestrians that might hear it and fall over and hit their head.
Click to expand...

Please share more about there air horn. How about a link?

I’ve seriously considered something like that to help with the deer on my home airport. I think an infrared camera might be a more useful tool though.

Years ago I thought about an air horn for my sailplane after landing on an athletic field near Allentown. The field seemed to be a favorite shortcut for students and I had to plan my rollout to avoid them. An air horn would have been entertaining.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
Bill Watson said:
Please share more about there air horn. How about a link?

I’ve seriously considered something like that to help with the deer on my home airport. I think an infrared camera might be a more useful tool though.

Years ago I thought about an air horn for my sailplane after landing on an athletic field near Allentown. The field seemed to be a favorite shortcut for students and I had to plan my rollout to avoid them. An air horn would have been entertaining.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...
@WannFly: And this is something to be aware of when you are building a plane. You post a simple question about something (say, the torque spec for a fastener) and within two pages of posts you end up with ideas about how to mount air horns (possibly stolen from a diesel locomotive) onto your airplane for the purpose of entertaining yourself when landing into a crowd of teenagers. And me? I'm happy that I subscribed to this thread because I, too, want to know where to get an air horn for my plane. I already have a smoke system that is 100% frivolous but could be entertaining. And only cost about $1,000 which is a rounding error in the grand scheme of things so, why not? ...and that's how you end up doubling your budget on these stupid things!
 
kyleb said:
At that cost, you'll need a slow build kit, and no paint ( or DIY paint) and probably a used engine. Almost certainly 2 outta 3.

Be realistic. The engine, prop, and firewall forward stuff will set you back $65k new.
Click to expand...
thats what i see too, with a new IO540 260 HP and a blad prob..its easily close to or more than 65k. and i am 100% certain i need some pro help in putting the engine on or fitting the important things like fuel lines etc, which is going to drive the cost up. what does the regs say about hiring an A&P to do some firewall forward work?
 
iamtheari said:
@WannFly: And this is something to be aware of when you are building a plane. You post a simple question about something (say, the torque spec for a fastener) and within two pages of posts you end up with ideas about how to mount air horns (possibly stolen from a diesel locomotive) onto your airplane for the purpose of entertaining yourself when landing into a crowd of teenagers. And me? I'm happy that I subscribed to this thread because I, too, want to know where to get an air horn for my plane. I already have a smoke system that is 100% frivolous but could be entertaining. And only cost about $1,000 which is a rounding error in the grand scheme of things so, why not? ...and that's how you end up doubling your budget on these stupid things!
Click to expand...

i hear ya, and thanks for the tips earlier in the thread.

i need to sort something out before i even order the toolbox kit...

* meet few folks at the local EAA
* find someone who is building and may be help him a little or just see him building
* take a sheet metal class
* most importantly - insulate my garage so that i can turn it into a shop and not freeze my big arse ..its ND after all

right now i dont know anyone in person who is building or who will come and help if need be. few friends have shown interest and i am 100% sure 95% of those would disappear after 5 rivets. others already knew i was crazy for flying a single engine plane that crashes on a daily basis and now thinks i have reached a new height of craziness.. ha ha ha

i will probably ping you offline and bug ya a little (or a lot :p)
 
Bill Watson said:
But I have to say that I only trashed 2 parts on the whole build. The reason is solely due to spending a week at a no-longer-offered tail build class.
Click to expand...
In that most of my trashed parts were created in cutting and drilling I suspect pre-punched parts had a lot to do with it too :)

The level of prefab work in today’s RVs makes them much easier to build well. Notice I said easier, not ‘easy’. ;)

Nauga,
and his prehistoric RV-4
 
WannFly said:
i will probably ping you offline and bug ya a little (or a lot :p)
Click to expand...
Go for it. The only thing I like more than building an airplane is talking about building an airplane.
 
kyleb said:
At that cost, you'll need a slow build kit, and no paint ( or DIY paint) and probably a used engine. Almost certainly 2 outta 3.

Be realistic. The engine, prop, and firewall forward stuff will set you back $65k new.
Click to expand...

WannFly said:
thats what i see too, with a new IO540 260 HP and a blad prob..its easily close to or more than 65k. and i am 100% certain i need some pro help in putting the engine on or fitting the important things like fuel lines etc, which is going to drive the cost up. what does the regs say about hiring an A&P to do some firewall forward work?
Click to expand...

Van's has a deal with Lycoming, new 540 is $47,500 and a prop $7,500. Get them together and its a $1,000 discount. I did price out slow build, but would rather do it all myself. For inside I priced the GRT HXr dual screen system, GSNS GPS, dual AHRS, ARINC 429, 2 axis auto pilot, the GRT engine monitoring system, Trig TT22 Transponder, PAC15EX remote audio panel, 2 Val Avionics COMs and NAVs. I priced everything including tools, but not the paint and upholstery. I haven't decided what to do with those yet. I have painted bikes and cars, but not a plane. Also have done upholstery on cars. Not sure I want to do either on the plane or what level I want to go to. Do I go leather or just vinyl or cloth? I can see arguments for either. For paint I want a white top and maybe red bottom, that's about it. All that plus LED and HID lights, heated pitot tube, and NPT fuel probes is $135.9K I guess I could see 150K easily and usually I just assume that's what it will be. FYI hang your engine or equivalent weight off the engine mount early (mount doesn't need to be in the plane). I have read that the mount will settle and if you hang the engine right before doing the cowling, it will settle causing fit problems with the cowlings when it does.
 
Bill Watson said:
As a old RC modeler, one of the anxieties I brought to the build was jigging and alignment. It’s one of those things I never felt confident with when building models. I just couldn’t imagine what would be required with a ‘real plane’.

The amazing part about CNC pre-drilled metal aircraft kits like the RVs is that there is virtually no jigging and very little alignment required. The tail parts, the tail cone, the wings; everything just snaps (clecos) together. No jigging, very little layout work or measuring is required. The main alignment task is getting wheel pants lined up with the rest of airframe. That was amazing to me.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...


Yeah. Kids these days..... :rolleyes:
 
jaymark6655 said:
Another vote for the RV-10. For a short while I was considering a SLING 4, but am over that non-sense now.
Click to expand...

Did you look at the new Sling Tsi? fuel injected 915 turbo rotax, 150 true, almost 1,000 lbs useful load, available extended range tanks...
 
Cluemeister said:
Did you look at the new Sling Tsi? fuel injected 915 turbo rotax, 150 true, almost 1,000 lbs useful load, available extended range tanks...
Click to expand...
I did: only 15 knots faster, but has 1 hour less endurance which reduces the range by about 100nm. $135K pushes it even closer to the RV-10, but seems to come up short in every area except stall speed. At least with the SLING 4 when endurance numbers where translated into nm per gallon without any wind, the SLING 4 performed better than the RV-10. Numbers I used were scrounged from all over the internet right after OSH'18, so I might have something wrong. I was severely disappointed when I did the comparison, I was hoping for an improvement over the SLING 4 in all areas, not just speed and a little bump in weight.
 
WannFly said:
thats what i see too, with a new IO540 260 HP and a blad prob..its easily close to or more than 65k. and i am 100% certain i need some pro help in putting the engine on or fitting the important things like fuel lines etc, which is going to drive the cost up. what does the regs say about hiring an A&P to do some firewall forward work?
Click to expand...

If you buy the firewall forward kit from Van's (Between $4k and $5k, as I recall) it comes with the exhaust, airbox, hoses, engine control cables, etc. The instructions for most of those things are pretty straightforward - tab A into slot B, torque to spec kind of stuff.

You're welcome (legally and practically) to hire someone to help you with anything you need help with. There are plenty of online resources to help with 99% of it, and there is a huge network of builders, so help is out there if you're not sure about something. 'Tis better to ask one too many questions than one too few.
 
jaymark6655 said:
Van's has a deal with Lycoming, new 540 is $47,500 and a prop $7,500. Get them together and its a $1,000 discount. I did price out slow build, but would rather do it all myself. For inside I priced the GRT HXr dual screen system, GSNS GPS, dual AHRS, ARINC 429, 2 axis auto pilot, the GRT engine monitoring system, Trig TT22 Transponder, PAC15EX remote audio panel, 2 Val Avionics COMs and NAVs. I priced everything including tools, but not the paint and upholstery. I haven't decided what to do with those yet. I have painted bikes and cars, but not a plane. Also have done upholstery on cars. Not sure I want to do either on the plane or what level I want to go to. Do I go leather or just vinyl or cloth? I can see arguments for either. For paint I want a white top and maybe red bottom, that's about it. All that plus LED and HID lights, heated pitot tube, and NPT fuel probes is $135.9K I guess I could see 150K easily and usually I just assume that's what it will be. FYI hang your engine or equivalent weight off the engine mount early (mount doesn't need to be in the plane). I have read that the mount will settle and if you hang the engine right before doing the cowling, it will settle causing fit problems with the cowlings when it does.
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing. Not much familiar with experimental avionics, is this a IFR Package? A certificated navigator will drive up the price, but still could be easily under 175.
 
kyleb said:
If you buy the firewall forward kit from Van's (Between $4k and $5k, as I recall) it comes with the exhaust, airbox, hoses, engine control cables, etc. The instructions for most of those things are pretty straightforward - tab A into slot B, torque to spec kind of stuff.

You're welcome (legally and practically) to hire someone to help you with anything you need help with. There are plenty of online resources to help with 99% of it, and there is a huge network of builders, so help is out there if you're not sure about something. 'Tis better to ask one too many questions than one too few.
Click to expand...

I spoke to Tom Berge in MN, one of the guys listed in vans website and weather permitting I am going to get a ride in his 7A in a couple of weeks. He delivers transition training and is also a test pilot and have loads of experience with RVs of about 30 years.
 
WannFly said:
Thanks for sharing. Not much familiar with experimental avionics, is this a IFR Package? A certificated navigator will drive up the price, but still could be easily under 175.
Click to expand...
I am not sure the GPS is allowed for approaches, but everything else combined with a battery backup should be pretty ideal. Dual screens with the dual AHRS, as long as you don't run out of battery power after an alternator failure you would have to suffer a double screen or a double AHRS failure and the AHRS "talk", looking for inconsistences in flight data between the two. Pretty sure I had everything to have ADS-B in and out. I took the ER tip tanks off my list, guess I figured I would never use them. IFR in an experimental is definitely an area I am less than familiar.
 
My wife refers to my Cub as my mistress. I suspect that's common among builder's wives.
 
jaymark6655 said:
I am not sure the GPS is allowed for approaches, but everything else combined with a battery backup should be pretty ideal. Dual screens with the dual AHRS, as long as you don't run out of battery power after an alternator failure you would have to suffer a double screen or a double AHRS failure and the AHRS "talk", looking for inconsistences in flight data between the two. Pretty sure I had everything to have ADS-B in and out. I took the ER tip tanks off my list, guess I figured I would never use them. IFR in an experimental is definitely an area I am less than familiar.
Click to expand...

From what I know if you have a gtn 650 or heck even a gnc 255, you are legal for IFR. Avionics will be a big $$shock for me since I love to poke around them.... Dynon skyview is 16k I think with engine monitoring and AP. Not sure how much a second screen cost though. I will run some numbers tonight
 
The same rules apply. But my wife just bought my mistress a hangar. Good luck with that!
 
FWIW I believe my G3X Touch including WAAS gps, ES txp, comm, engine monitoring, ADS-B in, and 2-servo AP cost me $13,500.00 incl all the mount kits and antennae.
 
Stewartb said:
FWIW I believe my G3X Touch including WAAS gps, ES txp, comm, engine monitoring, ADS-B in, and 2-servo AP cost me $13,500.00 incl all the mount kits and antennae.
Click to expand...
WOW! thanks, didnt know that
 
nauga said:
In that most of my trashed parts were created in cutting and drilling I suspect pre-punched parts had a lot to do with it too :)

The level of prefab work in today’s RVs makes them much easier to build well. Notice I said easier, not ‘easy’. ;)

Nauga,
and his prehistoric RV-4
Click to expand...

Oh, you did it pre-pre-punch! I don’t think I would have been a builder before pre-punch. Yes, pre-punch is a game changer in terms of ‘easily’ getting a good result.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
WannFly said:
thats what i see too, with a new IO540 260 HP and a blad prob..its easily close to or more than 65k. and i am 100% certain i need some pro help in putting the engine on or fitting the important things like fuel lines etc, which is going to drive the cost up. what does the regs say about hiring an A&P to do some firewall forward work?
Click to expand...
Not being a engine guy at all, I thought the same. Turned out that the firewall forward with a new engine was a piece of cake. And it’s fun because each step is different.






Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
jaymark6655 said:
Van's has a deal with Lycoming, new 540 is $47,500 and a prop $7,500. Get them together and its a $1,000 discount. I did price out slow build, but would rather do it all myself. For inside I priced the GRT HXr dual screen system, GSNS GPS, dual AHRS, ARINC 429, 2 axis auto pilot, the GRT engine monitoring system, Trig TT22 Transponder, PAC15EX remote audio panel, 2 Val Avionics COMs and NAVs. I priced everything including tools, but not the paint and upholstery. I haven't decided what to do with those yet. I have painted bikes and cars, but not a plane. Also have done upholstery on cars. Not sure I want to do either on the plane or what level I want to go to. Do I go leather or just vinyl or cloth? I can see arguments for either. For paint I want a white top and maybe red bottom, that's about it. All that plus LED and HID lights, heated pitot tube, and NPT fuel probes is $135.9K I guess I could see 150K easily and usually I just assume that's what it will be. FYI hang your engine or equivalent weight off the engine mount early (mount doesn't need to be in the plane). I have read that the mount will settle and if you hang the engine right before doing the cowling, it will settle causing fit problems with the cowlings when it does.
Click to expand...


so i ran some very rough numbers and came up with this. i am sure i am missing a ton of stuff. note, i did not include avoinics

Kit Total $ 48,780.00
Tools $ 3,000.00
Engine IO540 $ 47,700.00
Prop $ 13,150.00
QB Add $ 13,325.00
-prop / engine disccount $ (1,000.00)
Total $ 124,955.00

QB doesnt make sense, i will rather spend that money in avoinics. about prop, the only prop i could see is MT 3 blade one listed here - https://www.vansaircraft.com/pdf/order_forms/mt_prop_order_form.pdf

the sensenich doesnt even list IO540 :(..what am i missing? i couldnt price the firewall forward kit and other kits like lights etc since their store if offline right now. i am estimating between 150-160 is the total
 
Interior finishes and upholstery, wire and pins/connectors, paint, tires, brakes, exterior lighting, alternator......
 
jaymark6655 said:
I priced everything including tools, but not the paint and upholstery. I haven't decided what to do with those yet. I have painted bikes and cars, but not a plane. Also have done upholstery on cars. Not sure I want to do either on the plane or what level I want to go to. Do I go leather or just vinyl or cloth? I can see arguments for either. For paint I want a white top and maybe red bottom, that's about it.
Click to expand...

Paint is a headache because of many factors. First, you need the right facilities. Second, you need the patience of Job. Facilities are important to keep your family happy (surprisingly, most of them don't want your house to smell like solvents for a couple of months). Patience? There are so many things to paint. Two wings, two ailerons, two flaps, two wintips, two cowling halves, two elevators, a rudder, a VS, a HS, gear fairings, access panels, doors, fuselage, other fairings.

I painted my RV-6 in my garage when I was single. Yes, the house did stink for months. I knew it would and didn't have a problem with it. Now, with a wife and son, I'm going to hire out the RV-10's paint. The thing about paint is it is a lot of work, but ultimately (if you do a good job) it is very rewarding to point to your airplane on the flightline and say "I built and painted that".
 
The 2 blade metal Hartzell prop is ~$8k. You'll still need the FWF kit at $5k. Avionics is a "dial a number". You can spend a fortune there or you can go inexpensive. The problem is that if you spend a fortune, by next year's Oshkosh, someone will have introduced "Bigger and Better" and your state of the art panel will be a generation behind and moving down the depreciation curve. Personally, I'm a proponent of minimalism in the panel. Buy what you need, not what someone else wants you to have.

I'm going to end up between $155k and $160k all in, after I pay the tax man. (The state of Georgia charges sales/use tax on the stuff you bought out of state and didn't pay sales tax on. That tax is triggered when you register the airplane.)
 
It doesn't help that the store is down. I had only considered the Hartzell. Guess that price you listed is the three blade. I like the two blade: better power transfer and lower weight.
 
jaymark6655 said:
Van's has a deal with Lycoming, new 540 is $47,500 and a prop $7,500. Get them together and its a $1,000 discount. I did price out slow build, but would rather do it all myself. For inside I priced the GRT HXr dual screen system, GSNS GPS, dual AHRS, ARINC 429, 2 axis auto pilot, the GRT engine monitoring system, Trig TT22 Transponder, PAC15EX remote audio panel, 2 Val Avionics COMs and NAVs. I priced everything including tools, but not the paint and upholstery. I haven't decided what to do with those yet. I have painted bikes and cars, but not a plane. Also have done upholstery on cars. Not sure I want to do either on the plane or what level I want to go to. Do I go leather or just vinyl or cloth? I can see arguments for either. For paint I want a white top and maybe red bottom, that's about it. All that plus LED and HID lights, heated pitot tube, and NPT fuel probes is $135.9K I guess I could see 150K easily and usually I just assume that's what it will be. FYI hang your engine or equivalent weight off the engine mount early (mount doesn't need to be in the plane). I have read that the mount will settle and if you hang the engine right before doing the cowling, it will settle causing fit problems with the cowlings when it does.
Click to expand...
One of the challenges with keeping the $$ under control is staying with the Vans plans versus doing many of the mods that various builders and vendors come up with. Vans really believes in keeping things simple and cheap. If you look at their demo planes you won’t see carpeting or fancy upholstery or anything beyond what’s required for a VFR cruiser.

Example: Vans uses aluminum tubing for all fuel lines, brake lines and even the pitot tube. A complete set of flexible cables are available from a couple of vendors to replace all of that. Buying custom hoses saves some time and saves you from learning to bend the stuff and making flare connections. They are arguably better and add a bit of weight - you make your choice.

I basically stayed with the stock build (especially firewall forward) but added a robust electrical system that went way beyond the Vans design, just because I wanted to.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
kyleb said:
Paint is a headache because of many factors. First, you need the right facilities. Second, you need the patience of Job. Facilities are important to keep your family happy (surprisingly, most of them don't want your house to smell like solvents for a couple of months). Patience? There are so many things to paint. Two wings, two ailerons, two flaps, two wintips, two cowling halves, two elevators, a rudder, a VS, a HS, gear fairings, access panels, doors, fuselage, other fairings.

I painted my RV-6 in my garage when I was single. Yes, the house did stink for months. I knew it would and didn't have a problem with it. Now, with a wife and son, I'm going to hire out the RV-10's paint. The thing about paint is it is a lot of work, but ultimately (if you do a good job) it is very rewarding to point to your airplane on the flightline and say "I built and painted that".
Click to expand...

I have stunk up the house before, but luckily not with paint. Did you bag the whole garage, create a positive pressure environment with the garage to house door completely sealed off and filters on the air exchange, sort of like an asbestos mitigation setup. I have never done that, but would love to do a small experiment to see how it works out. Usually I just do a temp PVC frame wrapped in plastic with air setup to keep out dust.
 
jaymark6655 said:
I have stunk up the house before, but luckily not with paint. Did you bag the whole garage, create a positive pressure environment with the garage to house door completely sealed off and filters on the air exchange, sort of like an asbestos mitigation setup. I have never done that, but would love to do a small experiment to see how it works out. Usually I just do a temp PVC frame wrapped in plastic with air setup to keep out dust.
Click to expand...

Sort of. I built a huge filter (think screen door with filter elements) that snapped into the door opening between the garage and kitchen. I tented the garage and used box fans to pull air from the house through the garage (that way, I could largely control the heat and humidity in the paint booth). I installed filters upstream of the box fans to catch much (most?, some?, a tiny portion?, all?) of the airborne paint before it was exhausted. I'd do it that way again.

Once a paint session was over, I'd just close the real door between the house and garage and turn off a couple of the exhaust fans, leaving at least one running to remove fumes (at least overnight).
 
other thing i noticed is IO 540 doesnt have an option of e-mag, so unless there is another vendor that makes em, am stuck with dual mags and their IRAN every 500 hrs. one this i am doing for sure if i go this build route is to get dual alternator and dual battery set up.
 
WannFly said:
other thing i noticed is IO 540 doesnt have an option of e-mag, so unless there is another vendor that makes em, am stuck with dual mags and their IRAN every 500 hrs. one this i am doing for sure if i go this build route is to get dual alternator and dual battery set up.
Click to expand...
I thought those were finally shipping. And there is another alternative... don't remember the name, but they do have a 6 cylinder model.
 
Stewartb said:
FWIW I believe my G3X Touch including WAAS gps, ES txp, comm, engine monitoring, ADS-B in, and 2-servo AP cost me $13,500.00 incl all the mount kits and antennae.
Click to expand...
looks like th G3X touch includes a VFR WAAS, whatever that means: https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/166058/pn/010-01057-00#overview
still need IFR GPS for approaches

Edit: there is a promo going on right now. GTN 625 if bought with the 3x priced at #5675
https://garmin.blogs.com/promotions...1543291448-2060743708.1537064802#.W_zD0ehKgzM
 
Last edited:
WannFly said:
other thing i noticed is IO 540 doesnt have an option of e-mag, so unless there is another vendor that makes em, am stuck with dual mags and their IRAN every 500 hrs. one this i am doing for sure if i go this build route is to get dual alternator and dual battery set up.
Click to expand...

There are a few electronic ignition options for the 6 cylinder Lycomings. SDS is one provider (their website sucks), Lightspeed Engineering, Electroair, and one or two others. I'd go with SDS based on the reputation of the folks behind the product. Regarding the 6 cylinder E-mag. They have been "about to ship" for a decade or so on the 6 cylinder system.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top