What airplane is overall better Bonanzas or Mooneys

Remember - we still don't fully understand why an airplane flies. I'm sure in the 60's Mooney had reasons to design the tail the way he did, and we seem to argue to this date if it really works or not. In theory, it sort of makes sense, but in other ways, it doesn't. Thinking that he knew something revolutionary in the 60's - when back then no-one knew why an airplane flies (again - we still don't), gives him way too much credit.
The tail isn't why a Mooney is a great bird.
 
The rudder on my Mooney is enormously effective. I was utterly surprised when I found that it could slip just as well as my old Cherokee. It continues to surprise me.
A hard slip in my Mooney will make it descend like a Cub! Oh. Great crosswind machine also.

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Remember - we still don't fully understand why an airplane flies. I'm sure in the 60's Mooney had reasons to design the tail the way he did, and we seem to argue to this date if it really works or not. In theory, it sort of makes sense, but in other ways, it doesn't. Thinking that he knew something revolutionary in the 60's - when back then no-one knew why an airplane flies (again - we still don't), gives him way too much credit.
The tail isn't why a Mooney is a great bird.

60's??? The tail originated on the "Mooney Mite" in the forties. The M20 was certified in 1955. I am quite sure that Al never claimed or even hinted that the tail was something revolutionary.

I agree that the tail has virtually nothing to do with the Mooney being a good aircraft.
 
A hard slip in my Mooney will make it descend like a Cub! Oh. Great crosswind machine also.

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Yes, the Mooney slips great!

Before the Mooney the vast majority of my flight time was in my Cessna 140 which will slip with the best of them. Slips were not foreign to me. When doing my Mooney transition training, one of my first approaches was quite high. I asked the instructor if I could slip the Mooney. He said "of course!" I slipped that thing with full rudder and it came down like an elevator. Made me feel quite at home.

I have no idea if that tail design had anything at all to do with it, but I DO know that it has plenty of rudder authority.

Edit: I forgot to comment on the Mooney crosswind prowess. Coming from a taildragger I was hesitant to fly with much of a crosswind, especially if gusty or variable. The day the instructor ferried the Mooney and started my training there was a noticeable crosswind. I was skeptical, but after only a few trips around the patch my thoughts became "what crosswind?"
 
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60's??? The tail originated on the "Mooney Mite" in the forties. The M20 was certified in 1955. I am quite sure that Al never claimed or even hinted that the tail was something revolutionary.

I agree that the tail has virtually nothing to do with the Mooney being a good aircraft.

I knew that. No idea why I wrote 60's!
But yes - I think people are making it to be a much bigger deal than what it is. It likely was just an "hmm, I think this might work" idea and since it didn't fly terribly badly, it was left there - and now it is a "trademark" look of Mooney.
 
The V-Tail on the other had WAS a design choice. Moving from hundreds of HP in a round engine to 165HP in a flat 6, everything that Beech knew was thrown at the new model 35. Anything hanging out in the wind was chopped. I have a sheet around here that shows how many MPH they estimated was saved on each mod. The V tail gained a few MPH per their slide rule. Flush rivets, retractable step, etc.

One might argue that the effect is negligible with the power available now. But the result was a very nice looking aircraft (not to diminish the mooney)...

But you'll know if I win the lottery: I'll post a pic of my new Cirrus Vision next to my A35... still a cool look!
 
IMG_1771.PNG

Well, not so fast. Looks like someone in Brazil modified a 36 to have a V -Tail. More pics in Facebook if interested. Doesn't look like a photoshop job- just someone even crazier than us.
 
The V-Tail on the other had WAS a design choice. Moving from hundreds of HP in a round engine to 165HP in a flat 6, everything that Beech knew was thrown at the new model 35. Anything hanging out in the wind was chopped. I have a sheet around here that shows how many MPH they estimated was saved on each mod. The V tail gained a few MPH per their slide rule. Flush rivets, retractable step, etc.

One might argue that the effect is negligible with the power available now. But the result was a very nice looking aircraft (not to diminish the mooney)...

But you'll know if I win the lottery: I'll post a pic of my new Cirrus Vision next to my A35... still a cool look!

What do you mean on the other hand. I'm telling you both the Mooney tail and the V tail were explicit reasoned design choices.


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What do you mean on the other hand. I'm telling you both the Mooney tail and the V tail were explicit reasoned design choices.


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Just reflecting the last few posts suggesting the mooney tail might not have been performance oriented. Got me one way or another.


There is documentation on the design choice for the V tail.
 
What do you mean on the other hand. I'm telling you both the Mooney tail and the V tail were explicit reasoned design choices.


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you gots a reference for those wonderful nuggets you've shared? or are those your wishful desires? :D
 
sounds like a good belief......that's a start. :D

Now....I'm no Aero expert, I did however spend time in a tunnel a time or two....as unique as Mooney tails are, there doesn't appear to be anything special with that design that helps it aerodynamically.
 
sounds like a good belief......that's a start. :D

Now....I'm no Aero expert, I did however spend time in a tunnel a time or two....as unique as Mooney tails are, there doesn't appear to be anything special with that design that helps it aerodynamically.

Already explained to you multiple times.


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You know a forward canted trailing edge on the rudder is very common. Aerobatic aircraft, hmmm. Here is the extra 300. It's not just for looks.

d2d8b29e7732c2569046f8311ed98227.jpg



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"Everybody knows that aircraft handling tends to go critical at a high angle of attack. So I gave the vertical fin the straight up-and-down lines it still has today. Few people realize this was not a style gimmick."
-- Al Mooney, quoted by Gordon Baxter in the MAPA Log, March 1997

http://www.mooneyevents.com/quotes.htm


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from Larry Ball's "Those Remarkable Mooneys" chapter heading: Mooney Lore" p. 237 "Perky Tail"

"At least that's the way one woman described it in a letter to Mooney. Others said the tail is on backwards. In truth, it is a variable incidence tailplane with the rudder swept forward. (The Lockheed JetStar also used a variable-incidence tailplane.) Al Mooney felt the swept forward rudder would remain effective in a stall long after an aft swept fin and rudder would lose effectiveness. Here again, talk with enough aerodynamicists and you will probably find one that will agree with Al Mooney.

"Ralph Harmon designed the M-22 Mooney Mustang with the same distinctive Mooney tail. All production units carried this tail, but Ralph did, later on, build and flight test an M-22 with an aft swept T-tail. It's entirely possible Ralph was not convinced of the "perky tail's" value. Much later, Roy Lopresti designed and flew the Mooney 301 with a conventional swept back tail of 50 degrees. He also used conventional trim tabs on the elvator anf rudder. Although the 301 was never produced, LoPresti must have felt there was no particular advantage in staying with Mooney's trademark tail. Much later, in 1996, he told me that if he had it to do over he would have stayed with the tradition and used the Mooney tail."

---remember a m20 has a jackscrew that moves the entire tail as one piece for trim - no trim tabs...


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No....you gave some gobblie gook answer....nothing technical.

Rudder is more perpendicular to the airflow at increasing angles of attack which is where you need increased authority at slower speeds. Can't say it any simpler. And I provided references that show it was on purpose. All done.


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Rudder is more perpendicular to the airflow at increasing angles of attack which is where you need increased authority at slower speeds. Can't say it any simpler. And I provided references that show it was on purpose. All done.


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that's the incorrect plane for rudder lift.....about the z-axis. It's just flat wrong.
 
Can't fix ......


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Can't fix ......


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well....splain it from this diagram.....the pitching angle (y-axis) of attack is far different than the rudder angle of attack about the z-axis or yaw axis.

8437483.jpg
 
well....splain it from this diagram.....the pitching angle of attack is far different than the rudder angle of attack.

8437483.jpg

You really don't get it or are you a troll???

At high pitch angle of attack, the rudder is more not less perpendicular to the airflow and thus enhances authority of the rudder to yaw the aircraft on the z axis at slower speeds as this is where more rudder is needed due to decreased airflow. (You get high angles of attack at lower air speeds)


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You really don't get it or are you a troll???

At high pitch angle of attack, the rudder is more not less perpendicular to the airflow and thus enhances authority of the rudder to yaw the aircraft on the z axis at slower speeds as this is where more rudder is needed due to decreased airflow.


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that's wrong....the rudder is out of plane by 90 degrees and is not affected....unless you want to discuss blanketing or adverse yaw.
 
that's wrong....the rudder is out of plane by 90 degrees and is not affected....unless you want to discuss blanketing or adverse yaw.

Sorry wrong. I'm out.


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I'm sure there is an better way to explain it in terms of mean aerodynamic chord, or some such. But it's clear Al Mooney did it on purpose, that's all...


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Ok....that's changing the "effective" chord length for the rudder.....not the rudder angle of attack.

I never said rudder angle of attack. I said pitch angle of attack, aka of the airplane.


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I'm sure there is an better way to explain it in terms of mean aerodynamic chord, or some such. But it's clear Al Mooney did it on purpose, that's all...


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Oh....hasta be. You just can't splain it. :D
 
Oh....hasta be. You just can't splain it. :D

You're the only one who doesn't get it lol. Or is a troll. Or reading comprehension challenged e.g. "Rudder angle of attack" whatever that is. Gnite.


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that's wrong....the rudder is out of plane by 90 degrees and is not affected....unless you want to discuss blanketing or adverse yaw.

Dude, the rudder doesn't create lift, it (much of the time) corrects for yaw. At high angles of attack, a rear-swept rudder is far from perpendicular to the air flow (rear sweep angle + angle of attack), while a forward-swept rudder will be much closer to perpendicular (forward sweep angle - angle of attack).

For example, sweep the rudder back 40°, add 15° angle of attack while landing in a crosswind; the rudder is now swept back 55°, giving it an effective length less than half of what is measures (cos 45° < .500, my HP calculator isn't handy right now).

Now sweep the rudder forward 25°, add 15° angle of attack while landing in a crosswind; the rudder is now swept forward 10°, resulting in just a minor loss of effective length.

The more perpendicular the rudder is to the airflow, the more effect a given throw will have. I've not had any crosswind correction issues in my 180 hp Mooney. Make two identical rudders, the one with a small forward sweep will create more force per unit throw than the highly rear-swept rudder, and the difference will increase as the angle of attack increases. Or do the aerobatic planes sweep the rudder forward because it looks cool and not for the effect?

Now the vertical stabilizer leading edge is all styling, there's no debate there. But the rudder leaning forward is functional. And now there's no debate about Van copying the Mooney tail, since Al Mooney made the leading edge vertical instead of slightly rear-swept like so many recent planes.
 
the tail leading edges are not forward swept.....it may have that illusion because of the varying chord length.
 
the tail leading edges are not forward swept.....it may have that illusion because of the varying chord length.

Your reading comprehension is low. The rudder leading edge is swept back on most planes, it is swept forward on Mooneys and some aerobatic planes. Mooney vertical stabilizer leading edges are approximately vertical, but the exact position changes as we apply trim, since the entire tail pivots instead of using trim tabs to create extra drag.
 
...still... The tail has nothing to do with why Mooneys are great airplanes. No-one buys a Mooney because of it's great rudder.
 
Fun thread but definitely off in the ozone.

As a glider guy, when I first flew a Mooney it was apparent to me that its efficiency can from an airfoil with good laminar flow characteristics but with AOA sensitivity that more modern airfoils avoid. IOTW, a great mid-century wing design. It's sensitive to AOA so if you slow it down on approach with an AOA higher than a certain point,it comes down quite nicely. Same with slips for the same reason (rudder means little in that exercise). Get it 'up on the step' just right and it really performs.


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For those who cannot visualize the impact of hinge line angle to relative wind, it's called chordwise flow vs spanwise flow in the aero engineering world. Spanwise flow doesn't do much for ya wrt to the issue being debated; it's the chordwise flow that you want to maximize. That is why a forward canted hinge line maximizes chordwise flow at aircraft high AOA.

In the case of these low-performance aircraft, the difference is not significant. It's just marketing gimmickery. "High AOA" in normally cambered GA wings is an outright misnomer anyways, compared to LEX/delta planforms in your typical high T-W ratio/supermaneuverable airframe. I would say a design decision like the dumbarse Piper T-tails are a more significant performance differentiation (detractor in this case) than stabilizer sweep or hinge line canting. and mind you, they [T-tails] were too, implemented for cosmetic reasons.
 
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