Was it a cross-country? Instructor said no.

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ScottVal

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Scott
Hello,
I know this has been discussed ad-nauseum, that a cross-country flight is any flight in which the pilot navigates from one airport to another, and lands at the other airport, regardless of distance. Also, certain certificates require a certain number of hours of CC flights of a certain minimum distance, e.g., 50 nm.

So when I fly solo, I log all CC flights as such in my logbook (regardless of distance). I make a note in the comment section about the length of the flight in nm (this is recommended by the AOPA).

But often, when I fly with an instructor (to get instruction for an instrument rating, for instance), my instructor will say, let's not log this as CC, since it was less than 50 nm. So my policy is to go with what the instructor says to do, on a flight-by-flight basis, even though it might not be consistent throughout my logbook. It's kind of annoying, but seems like the best approach.

It seems like an information management issue. We know that I flew from point A to point B, and made a landing at point B. We know the distance from point A to point B. So what's the difference, whether I declare that the flight was CC or not?

I still log my flights on paper in an old-fashioned log-book, in pen, so I like knowing that what I enter is correct, so I'm not going back and crossing things out, etc. My primary instructor made me do this many years ago, and I guess it still stings. (It had nothing to do with logging CC flights, though.)

I just wanted to see what other pilots think of this.
Thanks.
-Scott V.
 
If I'm reading this correctly, you log every flight you fly to another airport as a cross country?
 
jordane93 said:
If I'm reading this correctly, you log every flight you fly to another airport as a cross country?
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That is a perfectly legal thing to do. Some regulations even require a specific amount of point to point cross country time
 
I don't know why you are doing this. I only log XC those 50nm+ flights. Am I wrong?
 
Per 14 CFR 61.1:


Cross-country time means--


(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
 
Does it matter?

To qualify for an instrument rating, you only count flight over 50 NM.

But what if you already have the rating? Or don't want it? Why can't you write whatever you like in that logbook column, or nothing at all?

Even if you do seek an instrument rating, it is possible to provide a tally on a paper that is based on the logbook but separate from the pages of the logbook itself. A tally that takes the 50 NM minimum into account, even if the logbook column doesn't.

So it seems to me it doesn't matter much at all what practice you follow in writing stuff in that column of a logbook.
 
bradg33 said:
Per 14 CFR 61.1:

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.
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Is there some other way to do it without one of these?
 
luvflyin said:
Is there some other way to do it without one of these?
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You could takeoff and fly in a random direction and then land at the first airport you see.
 
IIRC, ATP does not specify a distance for cross country.

Regardless, it's your logbook. Log it the way you want. If the CFI doesn't feel inclined to enter the number in the CC column for you, feel free to add it yourself. However, be sure to keep track of which flights will qualify you for your next rating.
 
NJP_MAN said:
ATP does require 50+NM. Just no landing required. Its part 135 mins that you're thinking of.
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Perhaps I have an older source, but...

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...F91C080F57BC9D2186257C4B006022A4?OpenDocument

Sec. 61.159

Aeronautical experience: Airplane category rating.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section, a person who is applying for an airline transport pilot certificate with an airplane category and class rating must have at least 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot that includes at least:


(1) 500 hours of cross-country flight time.

(2) 100 hours of night flight time.

(3) 50 hours of flight time in the class of airplane for the rating sought. A maximum of 25 hours of training in a full flight simulator representing the class of airplane for the rating sought may be credited toward the flight time requirement of this paragraph if the training was accomplished as part of an approved training course in parts 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter. A flight training device or aviation training device may not be used to satisfy this requirement.

(4) 75 hours of instrument flight time, in actual or simulated instrument conditions, subject to the following:

(i) Except as provided in paragraph (a)(4)(ii) of this section, an applicant may not receive credit for more than a total of 25 hours of simulated instrument time in a flight simulator or flight training device.

(ii) A maximum of 50 hours of training in a flight simulator or flight training device may be credited toward the instrument flight time requirements of paragraph (a)(4) of this section if the training was accomplished in a course conducted by a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(iii) Training in a flight simulator or flight training device must be accomplished in a flight simulator or flight training device, representing an airplane.

(5) 250 hours of flight time in an airplane as a pilot in command, or as second in command performing the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a pilot in command, or any combination thereof, which includes at least--

(i) 100 hours of cross-country flight time; and

(ii) 25 hours of night flight time.

(6) Not more than 100 hours of the total aeronautical experience requirements of paragraph (a) of this section or § 61.160 may be obtained in a full flight simulator or flight training device provided the device represents an airplane and the aeronautical experience was accomplished as part of an approved training course in parts 121, 135, 141, or 142 of this chapter.


(b) A person who has performed at least 20 night takeoffs and landings to a full stop may substitute each additional night takeoff and landing to a full stop for 1 hour of night flight time to satisfy the requirements of paragraph (a)(2) of this section; however, not more than 25 hours of night flight time may be credited in this manner.

(c) A commercial pilot may credit the following second-in-command flight time or flight-engineer flight time toward the 1,500 hours of total time as a pilot required by paragraph (a) of this section:


(1) Second-in-command time, provided the time is acquired in an airplane--

(i) Required to have more than one pilot flight crewmember by the airplane's flight manual, type certificate, or the regulations under which the flight is being conducted;

(ii) Engaged in operations under subpart K of part 91, part 121, or part 135 of this chapter for which a second in command is required; or

(iii) That is required by the operating rules of this chapter to have more than one pilot flight crewmember.

(2) Flight-engineer time, provided the time--

(i) Is acquired in an airplane required to have a flight engineer by the airplane's flight manual or type certificate;

(ii) Is acquired while engaged in operations under part 121 of this chapter for which a flight engineer is required;

(iii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a pilot training program approved under part 121 of this chapter; and

(iv) Does not exceed more than 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.

(3) Flight-engineer time, provided the flight time--

(i) Is acquired as a U.S. Armed Forces' flight engineer crewmember in an airplane that requires a flight engineer crewmember by the flight manual;

(ii) Is acquired while the person is participating in a flight engineer crewmember training program for the U.S. Armed Forces; and

(iii) Does not exceed 1 hour for each 3 hours of flight engineer flight time for a total credited time of no more than 500 hours.

(d) An applicant is issued an airline transport pilot certificate with the limitation, "Holder does not meet the pilot in command aeronautical experience requirements of ICAO," as prescribed under Article 39 of the Convention on International Civil Aviation, if the applicant does not meet the ICAO requirements contained in Annex 1 "Personnel Licensing" to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, but otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.

(e) An applicant is entitled to an airline transport pilot certificate without the ICAO limitation specified under paragraph (d) of this section when the applicant presents satisfactory evidence of having met the ICAO requirements under paragraph (d) of this section and otherwise meets the aeronautical experience requirements of this section.


Amdt. 61-130B, Eff. 12/24/2013
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Searching for "50" or "miles" does not show anything significant.
 
Anymouse said:
Searching for "50" or "miles" does not show anything significant.
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It's in 61.1

For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.
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You mean to tell me that 3,000nm radius round robin I did years back doesn't count as cross country? No good deed goes unpunished I tell ya... :D

ETA: looks like it does count for ATP credit sans landing. Whew...
 
asgcpa said:
I don't know why you are doing this. I only log XC those 50nm+ flights. Am I wrong?
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That's what I do as well.

Logging sub 50nm flights as XCs has zero use for me and would just make a mess out of my logs.
 
Anymouse said:
IIRC, ATP does not specify a distance for cross country.

Regardless, it's your logbook. Log it the way you want. If the CFI doesn't feel inclined to enter the number in the CC column for you, feel free to add it yourself. However, be sure to keep track of which flights will qualify you for your next rating.
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If your CFI is singing his numbers to a flight, do go messing with it afterwards, as a CFI that would make me question what you're using my signature for.
 
Part 135 minimums don't have a distance requirement for cross country. However, your private-ATP fixed wing certs/ratings do have a 50 nm requirement. Perfectly fine for you to log it the way you are. But if you plan on getting more than your instrument rating, it is going to be a pain to go back and re-add all the flights that were 50 nm or greater. Logging only that time that is 50 nm or greater is easier than every flight. Then if you were planning on doing 135, you only have to go back and re-add the non 50 nm stuff once. But to each his own. If you aren't thinking about flying professionally or obtaining any other ratings, I don't know why you would bother logging every flight to another airport as X-Country anyways.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
. If you aren't thinking about flying professionally or obtaining any other ratings, I don't know why you would bother logging every flight to another airport as X-Country anyways.
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That's my situation.

I'm not sure why I bother to log them at all. I could just leave the logbook column blank. But I still fill it out, as if I somehow owe it to the designer of the logbook to fill all the columns.
 
NoHeat said:
That's my situation.

I'm not sure why I bother to log them at all. I could just leave the logbook column blank. But I still fill it out, as if I somehow owe it to the designer of the logbook to fill all the columns.
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That's the reason I so dutifully differentiate a XC and a XC over 50nm... There is a column in my log book for it.. :)
 
James331 said:
If your CFI is singing his numbers to a flight, do go messing with it afterwards, as a CFI that would make me question what you're using my signature for.
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That is dumb. Do you know why the CFI signs the entry to begin with?
 
I wouldn't correct any entries made by a CFI after he signs it . So I guess I should have been logging all my short 100 Hamburg flights as cross country. If you fly on a regular basis the 50 mile cc is no big deal.
 
jordane93 said:
If I'm reading this correctly, you log every flight you fly to another airport as a cross country?
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If anyone is taking a poll, that's how I do it.

Unless one is concerned about new licenses and/or ratings, there's no reason not to.

If one is contemplating additional licenses and/or ratings, it might makes sense to start a new logbook column or otherwise flag entries that meet whatever standard might apply in the future - 50+ miles for example. Otherwise, why bother?
 
When do XC trips matter?

Legally, when you're trying to satisfy the requirement of a future rating. I believe they all specify 50nm as the distance.

Is there another time when XC matter? So why would you log something shorter as an XC, it just confuses your record keeping.
 
My logbook shows 2,024.8 cross country.

Ask me how much of that is >50 nm. Frankly, I don't know and I don't care.

I can't imagine ever needing to know. If I did, I suppose I could go back through 7 logbooks and my current Excel logbook and tease out enough to meet any requirement.

Frankly, that's not going to happen.

If you expect it will, as I said, start a new column.
 
All of a sudden, the limitation for a cross country flight no greater then 50nm makes sense for commercial pilots without their instrument. I thought that was rather odd language since my interpretation of a cross country flights was 50nm or more.
 
It's more than just the instrument rating various private, commercial, XC privs for recreational, etc... have different minimum XC distances (either 25 or 50 miles).

Note that a "flight" doesn't necessarily mean non-stop. Unless the aeronautical experience requirement states otherwise, you can do a XC by landing every 10 miles as long as the ultimate point of landing is 50 miles from where you started.
 
CC time is always 50nm minimum when vying for a rating...Since logging your time is otherwise optional, why log anything less than 50 miles as a CC? My logbook list anything shorter than 50 miles as "Local" keeps everything more categorized and easier to add up when it comes time. :dunno:
 
luvflyin said:
Is there some other way to do it without one of these?
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I can take off from PAO and land at NUQ while remaining in the pattern for at least one of them at all times.

The definition also seems to exclude vectoring by ATC.
 
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The cross-country requirements aren't that big a deal to add up one way or another for a certificate/rating application.

If you've got the minimum times, going through your logbook to analyze it doesn't take all that long. If you've got well over the minimum times, you still just have to show the minimums, so you can quit after that if you like. You've still got the potential to have too weed out SIC Cross Country, etc., too

As an examiner, the only real problems I've seen are minimum time applicants who log 135 SIC flights for which they're not qualified and the guy who quit logging Cross Country long before he had the ATP cross country requirements.

If you want to show your experience to a potential employer, I'd say a 49-mile cross country shows the same experience as a 51-mile cross country.:dunno:
 
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MAKG1 said:
I can take off from PAO and land at NUQ while remaining in the pattern for at least one of them at all times.

The definition also seems to exclude vectoring by ATC.
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I'm not getting all that serious here and it's just an exercise in reading FAR's, but wouldn't complying with Vectors be "other navigation systems to navigate"
 
"Cross-country" has a number of definitions according to the certificate or rating sought. You need to go to the "except as provided" sections for the specifics.

From 61.1

Cross-country time means—

(i) Except as provided in paragraphs (ii) through (vi) of this definition, time acquired during flight—

(A) Conducted by a person who holds a pilot certificate;

(B) Conducted in an aircraft;

(C) That includes a landing at a point other than the point of departure; and

(D) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(ii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements (except for a rotorcraft category rating), for a private pilot certificate (except for a powered parachute category rating), a commercial pilot certificate, or an instrument rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges (except in a rotorcraft) under §61.101 (c), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(iii) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate (except for powered parachute privileges), time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that—

(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(iv) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for a sport pilot certificate with powered parachute privileges or a private pilot certificate with a powered parachute category rating, time acquired during a flight conducted in an appropriate aircraft that—

(A) Includes a point of landing at least a straight line distance of more than 15 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(B) Involves, as applicable, the use of dead reckoning; pilotage; electronic navigation aids; radio aids; or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(v) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for any pilot certificate with a rotorcraft category rating or an instrument-helicopter rating, or for the purpose of exercising recreational pilot privileges, in a rotorcraft, under §61.101(c), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 25 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point.

(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.

(vii) For a military pilot who qualifies for a commercial pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating) under §61.73 of this part, time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.
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Gotta love it when there is a "B" in parenthesis...
 
bflynn said:
When do XC trips matter?

Legally, when you're trying to satisfy the requirement of a future rating. I believe they all specify 50nm as the distance.

Is there another time when XC matter? So why would you log something shorter as an XC, it just confuses your record keeping.
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That's my thought. If you aren't using it to satisfy a rating or 135 requirement, why even bother logging it?
 
It is all rather silly when a flight to another airport a couple of miles away is a cross-country but it is not a cross-country if you navigate and fly a couple hundred miles away to a point to sightsee, take pictures, search for a missing aircraft, do a fly-by, etc. but then return to land at the departure airport with no other stops. Heck, I bet there are some military jet jocks who have flown thousands of miles with many a nav waypoint only to land at the original airport. But I guess if you did not land at another airport, you did not go cross-country. Just an observation.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
SkyDog58 said:
It is all rather silly when a flight to another airport a couple of miles away is a cross-country but it is not a cross-country if you navigate and fly a couple hundred miles away to a point to sightsee, take pictures, search for a missing aircraft, do a fly-by, etc. but then return to land at the departure airport with no other stops. Heck, I bet there are some military jet jocks who have flown thousands of miles with many a nav waypoint only to land at the original airport. But I guess if you did not land at another airport, you did not go cross-country. Just an observation.
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The only rating a military pilot is likely to want is an ATP. From the set of definitions I posted above, you can see that "cross-country" as defined for ATP applicants does not require a landing.

(vi) For the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements for an airline transport pilot certificate (except with a rotorcraft category rating), time acquired during a flight—

(A) Conducted in an appropriate aircraft;

(B) That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure; and

(C) That involves the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems.
Click to expand...
 
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