Wanapum Dam 65' crack.

kgruber

kgruber

Final Approach
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Skywag
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KPWT Bremerton National
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Murcan infrastructure, best the third world has ever seen.
 
Just build a raft, like I did for my Fly Baby when the Howard Hanson dam was threatening to collapse...

FB_raft.jpg


Ron Wanttaja
 
I'm not sure. They are usually setting off some pretty big stuff. At night there are often 10 parachute flares in the sky for 30 minutes at a time and tanks running around. If the tank projectile hits rock (plenty of that) it shakes the house.

But the stuff last week had to be large doses of explosives, because the place here really rocked. Sometimes the sound wakes me, but last week it was shock and vibration. I am glad it is not 1945 in Berlin waiting for the Russians.
 
Fuel-Air stuff perhaps?
Second thought not sure how ground shaking that stuff is
 
Isn't Hanford the place they have a whole lot of rusting drums of nuclear waste sitting around waiting to get shaken apart?

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
Isn't Hanford the place they have a whole lot of rusting drums of nuclear waste sitting around waiting to get shaken apart?

Dan
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Yep, all sorts of interesting stuff stored at Hanford from the early days of plutonium development. That dam goes and the Fukushima mess will look like small potatoes.
 
That area was my playground as a kid. My dad would take the Beverly helper job on the railroad that was once there. We'd ride the locomotive with him up Saddle Mountain to Kittitas or the Hanford line into Hanford and back. Back before terrorists and stuff, I just showed up at the dam, told them I was an engineer and they gave me a tour. I also did a Army Reserve summer camp at the Firing Center. We drove APC's from Yakima to the Columbia River and back. Lots of dust, beer and automatic weapons.
 
Old Geek said:
That area was my playground as a kid. My dad would take the Beverly helper job on the railroad that was once there. We'd ride the locomotive with him up Saddle Mountain to Kittitas or the Hanford line into Hanford and back. Back before terrorists and stuff, I just showed up at the dam, told them I was an engineer and they gave me a tour. I also did a Army Reserve summer camp at the Firing Center. We drove APC's from Yakima to the Columbia River and back. Lots of dust, beer and automatic weapons.
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I remember a weekend at the Yakima Firing Center back in college (early 1970s). Fun, but boy those reservists were a screwed up bunch. Their NCOs were useless.
 
kgruber said:
The Desert Airport is only 8 miles downstream. I need to get some Edo 2000's fast for my Cherokee.
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And how deep is that canyon the river runs in when it does by Desert Aire?
 
Is that one of the dams that are supposed to be removed to allow some suckerfish to migrate up and down the river ?
 
This dam is staying and it is crucial to the Washington economy. And,Tom, the river is wide, slow, and probably averages 30 feet between the dams.

I still think the Yakima Firing Center has something to do with the crack, but am the only one it seems. Does concrete fatigue?
 
Concrete does fatigue. Like anything else its subject to age, weather conditions, etc.
 
Henning said:
Yep, all sorts of interesting stuff stored at Hanford from the early days of plutonium development. That dam goes and the Fukushima mess will look like small potatoes.
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Yawn. In the extremely unlikely event of the dam "letting go", there's still another dam between it and Hanford.
 
Old Geek said:
Yawn. In the extremely unlikely event of the dam "letting go", there's still another dam between it and Hanford.
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True, but it will be topped by the wall of water should the dam go. Hanford is rated as the most toxic place in the US.
 
kgruber said:
This dam is staying and it is crucial to the Washington economy. And,Tom, the river is wide, slow, and probably averages 30 feet between the dams.

I still think the Yakima Firing Center has something to do with the crack, but am the only one it seems. Does concrete fatigue?
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When I was building a concrete boat they were telling us that concrete gets stronger for the first hundred years, stays about the same for the next hundred, and degrades over the next hundred to the strength of initial cure. As to the veracity of that statement...:dunno:
 
Kaiser built concrete "Victory" ships in Vancouver. When I was a teen we used to break into the old shipbuilding shops. There was still a lot of cool equipment there. Like lathes that were 40 feet long.

I wonder if the dam's original design criteria called for0 to 500 explosions 5 miles away for 55 years?
 
JB1842 said:
Concrete does fatigue. Like anything else its subject to age, weather conditions, etc.
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Yeah, but "when done correctly", It'll last...oh...2,000 years...or more.

Here's a reinforced concrete dome that just shy of 2000 year old:

Pantheon%20Dome.jpg


If they could do it 2,000 years ago...
 
timwinters said:
Yeah, but "when done correctly", It'll last...oh...2,000 years...or more.

Here's a reinforced concrete dome that just shy of 2000 year old:

If they could do it 2,000 years ago...
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The advantage they had back then was if the contractor tried to cut corners they would be flogged and crucified. Everything we do is done by the lowest bidder.
 
kgruber said:
This dam is staying and it is crucial to the Washington economy. And,Tom, the river is wide, slow, and probably averages 30 feet between the dams.
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What I was asking was, What is the elevation difference between the river and the community of Desert Aire.
 
Tom-D said:
What I was asking was, What is the elevation difference between the river and the community of Desert Aire.
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Technically, Desert Aire is next to Priest Rapids Lake, not the river. The height of the lake will depend on how much water Wanapum upstream and Priest Rapids downstream let through.
 
Tom-D said:
What I was asking was, What is the elevation difference between the river and the community of Desert Aire.
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If you go google earth wherever you hold the mouse pointer the altitude of the ground is displayed at the bottom of the screen
 
timwinters said:
Yeah, but "when done correctly", It'll last...oh...2,000 years...or more.

Here's a reinforced concrete dome that just shy of 2000 year old:

Pantheon%20Dome.jpg


If they could do it 2,000 years ago...
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I agree with that. I wonder how the concrete mixture differs from way back when to today?
 
2000 years of life in a concrete dome, and my damn new concrete driveway cracked in the first 6 months of life .... there's no justice.
 
gkainz said:
2000 years of life in a concrete dome, and my damn new concrete driveway cracked in the first 6 months of life .... there's no justice.
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Foundation is everything...and you're in Colorado. We don't have soil, we have a mineral sponge that doesn't like to be disturbed in any way.
 
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I think I remember a TV show on the Hoover Dam saying that the concrete deep down and in the middle of everything still has not set and dried yet.
 
gkainz said:
2000 years of life in a concrete dome, and my damn new concrete driveway cracked in the first 6 months of life .... there's no justice.
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If it was poured by a typical residential contractor then bets are that it was poured far too wet, with far too few joints and with no rebar. They're notorious for doing all three. We affectionately refer to residential contractor concrete as "self leveling."

And then, even if when they did cut joints, they probably just lightly scored them, maybe 1/4" deep if you're lucky, instead of going 25% of the slab thickness like is required to establish a weak plane.

Wire mesh is worthless in concrete flatwork because it always winds up at the bottom as it's walked on repeatedly during the pouring process. Fibermesh is better, rebar on chairs is best.
 
"I wonder how the concrete mixture differs from way back when to today?"

Seven sack mix not shortchanged by the contractor. :yes::D
 
timwinters said:
If it was poured by a typical residential contractor then bets are that it was poured far too wet, with far too few joints and with no rebar. They're notorious for doing all three. We affectionately refer to residential contractor concrete as "self leveling."

And then, even if when they did cut joints, they probably just lightly scored them, maybe 1/4" deep if you're lucky, instead of going 25% of the slab thickness like is required to establish a weak plane.

Wire mesh is worthless in concrete flatwork because it always winds up at the bottom as it's walked on repeatedly during the pouring process. Fibermesh is better, rebar on chairs is best.
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Have you seen what some inginears do out here to try to make a chunk of concrete not crack? Some of the stuff is rather un-real in terms of slab thickness. Swelling soils are not fun. The alternative is to excavate something like 8' and backfill with suitable material. It's now in the building code for certain areas - dunno if Greg's house is in one of them but wouldn't be surprised at all if it was.
 
yeah, we have the silly putty soils out here - bentonite everywhere.

I was there when they poured. Tore out a 6-7", 30 year old slab that was cracked to pieces, top spalled off everywhere. Used rebar on chairs (ok, sort of - tied the horizontal bar to vertical bars), not mesh, I didn't verify how deep the joints were cut tho. They did cut 2 more joints than the original had, and pointed that out as a benefit of their experience.

They didn't excavate as the new slab pour was 5", but backfilled to make up the difference. I suspect they didn't compact the backfill as thoroughly as they should.
 
Clark1961 said:
Have you seen what some inginears do out here to try to make a chunk of concrete not crack? Some of the stuff is rather un-real in terms of slab thickness. Swelling soils are not fun. The alternative is to excavate something like 8' and backfill with suitable material. It's now in the building code for certain areas - dunno if Greg's house is in one of them but wouldn't be surprised at all if it was.
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Sounds like you might as well not try to keep it from moving...just post tension and let it all move in unison without breaking.

That's what we do in Many parts of Texas and Oklahoma with expansive clays. In many cases it's cheaper than over excavating and attempting to stabilize. Better too.

The entire building and parking lot ( separately) float like a boat on a lake.
 
timwinters said:
Sounds like you might as well not try to keep it from moving...just post tension and let it all move in unison without breaking.

That's what we do in Many parts of Texas and Oklahoma with expansive clays. In many cases it's cheaper than over excavating and attempting to stabilize. Better too.

The entire building and parking lot ( separately) float like a boat on a lake.
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Ya notice how I spelled engineer didn'tya?

The building code stuff, well, the county isn't real smart either. They are trying to make the problems go away by using backfill. Not a lot of confidence in that one in the long run - too easy to take shortcuts on compaction.
 
Clark1961 said:
Ya notice how I spelled engineer didn'tya?
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Yeah, we call 'em train drivers around here. ;)

Greg, a few comments/observations for what they're worth from a thousand miles away.

You say it came apart in six months, if it's still less than a year old you might have a shot at getting it fixed under warranty, the default warranty on construction is one year.

A 5" thick slab is marginal for vehicular traffic even on good soil.

Is the concrete flush from one side of the crack to the other or is one side higher?

If flush then they are shrinkage cracks and are caused by pouring the concrete too wet and/or not cutting the joints deep enough and/or not cutting joints often enough.

If higher on one side than the other then they are structural/settlement cracks and are caused by the sub-base moving.

Shrinkage cracks are far preferable and can simply be caulked to keep water out of them to thus keep the concrete from spalling when that water freezes. OTOH settlement cracks showing up within six months would be a great concern.

The other wildcard is the rebar.

#4s or #5s @ 12" to 18" OC is preferable for your soils...on any soils really. #3s at 24" to 36" OC is a waste of time, again on any soils.

Adding fiber mesh to the concrete is always a good insurance policy.

BTW, IIRC, that 2,000 year old structural concrete dome had horsehair in it. Their version of fiber mesh.
 
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Thanks, Tim. The surface is flush on both sides and the crack is really a hairline width crack - I'll call the contractor on this - I just assumed the old mantra of "our area shifts bad - cracks are inevitable" and didn't think there would be any benefit to calling.
 
gkainz said:
Thanks, Tim. The surface is flush on both sides and the crack is really a hairline width crack - I'll call the contractor on this - I just assumed the old mantra of "our area shifts bad - cracks are inevitable" and didn't think there would be any benefit to calling.
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Sounds like shrinkage cracking :mad:. If it is <0.02inches wide, seal it over the top and be done.

And this type of uncontrolled cracking is caused by several things:

1) Hurried curing
2) too much restraint (rebar and/or soils)
3) improper spacing/cutting of contraction joints in restrained slabs

All stuff we've known about for decades, but are defects typical of contractors and robo-engineers.
 
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