W&B and obstinate pax

ajstoner21 said:
I had no idea this thread was about you until you posted!

For some reason I feel the need to go on a bike ride though.... :goofy:
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Yes, this is about me.

Now your fears about Ed's "people skills" are confirmed.

It is something a lot of people are sensitive about, I think, even if the bottom line is "just a number" and you look good anyways.

Like that other poster said, he had a tall female CFI who was 5'8" and around 120 or 130 (pretty small) and even she was sensitive.

So sue me - I'm in California - a LOT of pressure here to go to the gym ten times a day and look like a movie star.
 
EdFred said:
Say you have a first time passenger to your airplane, and you ask them their weight so you can make sure the CG is within range, and they absolutely refuse to give it to you.

What do you do?
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Depends. If you explain its for weight and balance (maybe a bit more background) and they still refuse........ unless I know Ive got a 100lbs margin, they stay on the ground.

Ive only carried a few passengers, but typically the conversation goes ok once Ive explained WHY I need to know what they weigh.

But since Im fat..... I don't fly with 4 people in a Cessna anyways, so it rarely comes up.

kimberlyanne546 said:
Yes, this is about me.

Now your fears about Ed's "people skills" are confirmed.

It is something a lot of people are sensitive about, I think, even if the bottom line is "just a number" and you look good anyways.

Like that other poster said, he had a tall female CFI who was 5'8" and around 120 or 130 (pretty small) and even she was sensitive.

So sue me - I'm in California - a LOT of pressure here to go to the gym ten times a day and look like a movie star.
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Saw this after I posted. Makes sense, Im sensitive about my weight too, Im on the rounder side. You can also give a conservative "wet" weight. (Gear, clothes, water bottles etc. You + what ever you're bringing)

"I weigh 270lbs with winter clothes and flight bag, plan on that."

It gives the pilot a number for W&B, while your "true" weight stays a bit of a mystery.
 
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Steve said:
Tracked a pic of Ed's "pax".

Don't know what his problem is...

FatGirl.jpg
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That ladder ought to solve that pilots W & B problems. :D
 
Henning said:
Tall girls who look 120 are usually 145 with their purse. As long as a woman looks good, do you think anyone really cares what the weight number is?
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+1. Who cares. Something you've got to get over as a pilot. Physics don't care if you're senstiive about your weight.

Sometimes it's not even the pilot trying to figure out if you weigh too much, sometimes you might weigh too little. There are airplanes that are nose-heavy for example and a heavier passenger in the back can make the difference. But without accurate numbers - the aircraft might be operated in a region it was never certified to do.
 
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kimberlyanne546 said:
Yes, this is about me.

Now your fears about Ed's "people skills" are confirmed.

It is something a lot of people are sensitive about, I think, even if the bottom line is "just a number" and you look good anyways.

Like that other poster said, he had a tall female CFI who was 5'8" and around 120 or 130 (pretty small) and even she was sensitive.

So sue me - I'm in California - a LOT of pressure here to go to the gym ten times a day and look like a movie star.
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You are obviously slender and lovely, but do tell the pilot your actual weight if he or she asks, and do be conservative. I doubt you could put either my or Ed's airplane out of CG. But it is an honest safety concern.

Get used to it in the aviation community, it is truly part of our culture. I tend to estimate and only ask if I feel the CG or payload is being broached, and even then I am far more bashful than I should be (this has come up on POA before). I should be loads more proactive than I am, and am becoming more so.

We don't care what you weigh. We really don't. It's just a number to be fed into some calculations that we're all supposed to do. Odds are if it's a guy pilot, the number will be forgotten soon after the computations are done. indeed, the pilot who asks is probably a much better airman than the one who doesn't.
 
Ed, seriously?!? You took my fat ass up without even asking.

To answer the original, more-ambiguous question, though - It's not that hard to determine your limits without knowing exact weights. For the planes that I fly, I've made spreadsheets for W&B and run a lot of different scenarios through them so that I don't need to know exact weights in most circumstances.

For example, in the 182 I know it's pretty much impossible to load it out of CG - If I'm solo in the front, loading the baggage compartment to limits and loading the rear seat until I'm over gross still won't put it out the aft limits, and I can take a 350-pounder with me in the right seat and not be out the forward limits. Weight-wise, I can take 747 pounds in the cabin with full fuel, or 903 pounds with four hours of fuel.

In the somewhat-more-limited DA40, I also can't load it out the aft limit. I can load it out the forward limits, but if I have a person in the back seat I can't, and if I just have two in the front seats and have any doubt about whether they'll put me outside the forward limits, I know that all I need to do is throw my flight bag into the rear baggage compartment and I'll be within limits. Gross weight wise, I'm unfortunately somewhat limited in that I can only take 210 additional pounds with full fuel and be legal. In this particular case, I also know that there's some margin because there's a 110 lb. gross weight increase consisting of a collar limiting up elevator travel due to spin characteristics when heavy, so I know that if somebody lies to me about their weight or I underestimate it myself, I don't have to worry about the airplane falling apart, I've just gotta keep from stalling it until I burn a few pounds of fuel off - And I don't do stalls with pax anyway.

So - Know thy airplane. And don't be a dick.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
Ed, seriously?!? You took my fat ass up without even asking.

To answer the original, more-ambiguous question, though - It's not that hard to determine your limits without knowing exact weights. For the planes that I fly, I've made spreadsheets for W&B and run a lot of different scenarios through them so that I don't need to know exact weights in most circumstances.

For example, in the 182 I know it's pretty much impossible to load it out of CG - If I'm solo in the front, loading the baggage compartment to limits and loading the rear seat until I'm over gross still won't put it out the aft limits, and I can take a 350-pounder with me in the right seat and not be out the forward limits. Weight-wise, I can take 747 pounds in the cabin with full fuel, or 903 pounds with four hours of fuel.

In the somewhat-more-limited DA40, I also can't load it out the aft limit. I can load it out the forward limits, but if I have a person in the back seat I can't, and if I just have two in the front seats and have any doubt about whether they'll put me outside the forward limits, I know that all I need to do is throw my flight bag into the rear baggage compartment and I'll be within limits. Gross weight wise, I'm unfortunately somewhat limited in that I can only take 210 additional pounds with full fuel and be legal. In this particular case, I also know that there's some margin because there's a 110 lb. gross weight increase consisting of a collar limiting up elevator travel due to spin characteristics when heavy, so I know that if somebody lies to me about their weight or I underestimate it myself, I don't have to worry about the airplane falling apart, I've just gotta keep from stalling it until I burn a few pounds of fuel off - And I don't do stalls with pax anyway.

So - Know thy airplane. And don't be a dick.
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You didn't ask Kent his weight, Ed? OK now I hate you even more.

Sincerely,

Kimberly
 
steingar said:
indeed, the pilot who asks is probably a much better airman than the one who doesn't.
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True to a point, but one who doesn't need to ask because he knows there's no way in hell he'll be outside the limits is an even better airman, and a better steward for GA.

And less likely to be perpetually single, too. :rofl:
 
EdFred said:
Say you have a first time passenger to your airplane, and you ask them their weight so you can make sure the CG is within range, and they absolutely refuse to give it to you.

What do you do?
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I'm pretty sure the AIM calls for a manual body screening to determine that W&B fall within the envelope.

That's what I tell my wife, and I'm sticking to it.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I now officially hate Ed.

I don't think I am going to make the plane crash and if ANY OF YOU "guess my weight" you can PM him - oh yeah, and I hate spiders, funny avatar Ed.

Sorry, I'm a girl - I didn't think he would start a thread about this!!!

Here are some fully body shots (and no they are not from this month and no I have not turned into a giant house since they were taken). I am roughly the same weight give or take ten million pounds:



5940709620_0c326491f8.jpg





5940099081_1e612488fb.jpg



5940688950_0b79be3f8f.jpg



5940699458_8e4d33836c.jpg
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I don't care what you weigh; you can ride with me ANY TIME YOU WANT TO!
 
I tried to warn her. Did she listen? nooooooooooooooo

Now I figure Kimberly is such a tiger Ed will have his hands full. I mean, he'll....aw, forget it.
 
If I had a ton of experience flying fat chicks as passengers, I damn sure wouldn't brag about it on the Internet....
 
Just tell them you need to see ID and look at the weight on their driver's license. Of course this doesn't work if they hand you a passport.
 
Sac Arrow said:
If I had a ton of experience flying fat chicks as passengers, I damn sure wouldn't brag about it on the Internet....
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Look at it this way, it allows you to put the hottie in the front. Not that you wouldn't anyway. But now you can 'splain how you have to be legal.
 
As long as your not still carrying the excess 200+ lbs you cropped out of the middle two pictures, you should be good to go. :D
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I know I "need to get over this" but two things:

1. I have never been in anyone's plane before, so this is the first time anyone has asked me my weight.

2. Women who "look like they are 120" often are not and the number for whatever reason makes them uncomfortable.

Again, not really something about me I want on the internet!

Thanks, Ed, you're a real doll - !
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Now you are starting to catch on to why Ed is single. ;)
 
On a checkride with a woman examiner, I asked her weight. She glared at me! I glared back as I mentally calculated her weight. I said outloud that number plus 25. She shot back with her 'true weight'. I entered that number +10 in the W & B.
 
Kim,

I don't understand why you're worried about your giving him your weight because you look fantastic.

There is a way to solve this though. Just tell him you're a pilot and tell him to hand over his POH and the item weights and their locations. Calculate the W&B for him, tell him if there are any changes in fuel load, cargo, etc. then tell him you are within limits, tear up your calculation sheet and throw it away, then tell him it's time to go fly.

Doc
 
MBDiagMan said:
Kim,

I don't understand why you're worried about your giving him your weight because you look fantastic.

There is a way to solve this though. Just tell him you're a pilot and tell him to hand over his POH and the item weights and their locations. Calculate the W&B for him, tell him if there are any changes in fuel load, cargo, etc. then tell him you are within limits, tear up your calculation sheet and throw it away, then tell him it's time to go fly.

Doc
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one other way. Given the bags women carry these days, just throw those aft.
 
Dave Theisen said:
As long as your not still carrying the excess 200+ lbs you cropped out of the middle two pictures, you should be good to go. :D
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Nope, those are pictures from a year or more ago. That cropped person was only about 6 feet tall and less than 130 pounds and is no longer "being carried around" by me.
 
MBDiagMan said:
Kim,

I don't understand why you're worried about your giving him your weight because you look fantastic.

There is a way to solve this though. Just tell him you're a pilot and tell him to hand over his POH and the item weights and their locations. Calculate the W&B for him, tell him if there are any changes in fuel load, cargo, etc. then tell him you are within limits, tear up your calculation sheet and throw it away, then tell him it's time to go fly.

Doc
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Wait until after you land. ARROW :thumbsup:
 
"What was that I just sat on?"

"Ooops, that's where I put my bathroom scale!"
 
There's another point to think about.....this is a camping trip, which means gear. Traveling alone, you don't think much about all the gear you're carrying, but add a passenger with their stuff, well....I know I've had to think about it and ask for weight when I was flying the Trinnie.

Of course, don't know if Ed has to camp or not.....:dunno::D:D
 
Gerhardt said:
I'm pretty sure the AIM calls for a manual body screening to determine that W&B fall within the envelope.

That's what I tell my wife, and I'm sticking to it.
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A manual body screening? What else haven't I learned about aviation from my instructor? We haven't even gone over the passenger briefing stuff I need to demonstrate on my checkride, now this? I don't think the DPE wants a manual body screen..... and he will be my first passenger!!!
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
You didn't ask Kent his weight, Ed? OK now I hate you even more.

Sincerely,

Kimberly
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Do keep in mind that before you posted those lovely photos, all we had was a head shot that might not even been you. Ed's question was reasonable and intelligent.

I must second what Richard said. You would be a welcome passenger in my airplane the Free Bird as well, so long as no one tells Mrs. Steingar.
 
steingar said:
Do keep in mind that before you posted those lovely photos, all we had was a head shot that might not even been you. Ed's question was reasonable and intelligent.

I must second what Richard said. You would be a welcome passenger in my airplane the Free Bird as well, so long as no one tells Mrs. Steingar.
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Do also keep in mind that Ed had already seen those photos.

Again, gotta love those people skills Ed has, right?

Kimberly
 
ajstoner21 said:
Wait until after you land. ARROW :thumbsup:
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That means you have to have the *airplane's* W&B numbers, not the numbers for that particular flight (unless, of course, you're operating for hire). I haven't done a paper W&B in a LONG time... And I've never seen anyone I've ridden with do it, either.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
That means you have to have the *airplane's* W&B numbers, not the numbers for that particular flight (unless, of course, you're operating for hire). I haven't done a paper W&B in a LONG time... And I've never seen anyone I've ridden with do it, either.
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There are inspectors that disagree, even 91. Which is what WnB Pro is good for. Working on the ability to save the "profile" in a read only form with a description along with the ability to share that with someone else (perhaps dispatch in the 135 world).
 
I've sort of gotten around it by asking this way, "With full fuel, and me, I can carry xxx. As long as you don't weigh more than xxx, I don't have to worry about how much fuel the last renter left in the plane. You don't weigh more than xxx, do you?"

As far as balance, I've only flown one plane that would get nose heavy with a full load in the front seats.

'course, I just normally fly with my kids and an occasional other pax, so this doesn't get to be a problem often at all. CFI's I've flown with, male and female, have never been shy about giving me a number.
 
Richard said:
Look at it this way, it allows you to put the hottie in the front. Not that you wouldn't anyway. But now you can 'splain how you have to be legal.
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I don't think he has a back seat anymore (right, Ed?)

So um unless he's throwing me in the baggage compartment I have to go in the front.


Kimberly
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
I don't think he has a back seat anymore (right, Ed?)

So um unless he's throwing me in the baggage compartment I have to go in the front.


Kimberly
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Back seat or no back seat, I gaurantee you won't be anywhere but in the front.

To address your post where you said Ed had already seen your pics yet you have reason to question his people skills. I have to question yours. Maybe you deserve each other. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

I'd be willing to say that would make Diz dizzy with delight.
 
I would assume that Ed is planning on a bunch of supplies in the baggage area and needs to know that he will have enough weight up front to move the CG forward enough.
 
Richard said:
Back seat or no back seat, I gaurantee you won't be anywhere but in the front.

To address your post where you said Ed had already seen your pics yet you have reason to question his people skills. I have to question yours. Maybe you deserve each other. :rofl::rofl::rofl:
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Oh he deserves something all right . . . . !!!!



-Kimberly
 
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