W&B and obstinate pax

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by EdFred, Jul 15, 2011.

  1. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Say you have a first time passenger to your airplane, and you ask them their weight so you can make sure the CG is within range, and they absolutely refuse to give it to you.

    What do you do?
     
  2. haven

    haven Pre-Flight

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    tell them their ass is staying on the ground then.
     
  3. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    :yeahthat:
     
  4. ScottM

    ScottM Taxi to Parking

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  5. SkyHog

    SkyHog Touchdown! Greaser!

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    "Ha. I'm fat too, but you need to give me your weight so we can stay within the limits of the aircraft....did you know I only have a few hundred pounds of weight available before we are overweight?"

    Or

    "Give it to me, or give it to the next pilot, but one of us will need to know how much each cheek weighs before you fly."

    Or for the single pilot:

    "I can be your scale....let's go somewhere more private."
     
  6. ajstoner21

    ajstoner21 Cleared for Takeoff

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    My initially reaction is I would say they are staying on the ground.

    It might be hard to guess a weight, but you could check W&B for what would hopefully be the "worst case" weight of them and see where the numbers fall... Not sure how legal this route is.

    Luckily, I've always had passengers willing to give me their weight.
     
  7. fgcason

    fgcason En-Route

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    A first time flight probably isn't going to be loaded to max gross wt and just barely within CG limits. Most likely it's going to be a nearly empty airplane which if it's a garden variety 4 seater anything, it should be able to carry just about anyone within reason that fits in the seat easily.

    You can usually make a reasonable guess just by looking at them and stay within limits using that estimate.

    Failing that, insist on a number that isn't a blatant lie. Tell them their life depends on it being accurate and you're not suicidal.
    If they're more concerned about social image than avoiding death, a weighing scale or leaving them behind works every time.
     
  8. AdamZ

    AdamZ Administrator Management Council Member

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    I agree unless their size is such that its obvious that they won't come close to the weight limit with all other pax and baggage etc. considered.
     
  9. flygirl34q

    flygirl34q Ejection Handle Pulled

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    I'm rather surprised that this is an issue at all. I have found that people of all sizes (pilots and non-pilots) that I have flown in my airplane are usually very understanding of it's limitations when I explain them and therefore understand the need for this question on an often sensitive issue. No sane passenger wants to purposely have an "interesting" flight by being un-cooperative right from the start. :( However, failing that, it usually isn't that difficult to make a weight estimation within 20-30 pounds or so upon meeting someone for the first time and if you have everything else figured into the equation... it should be a fairly painless decision on your part as to whether to leave them or take them.
     
  10. Richard

    Richard Final Approach

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    Ack...city life
    Ed said nothing of overweight pax. Yes, I have been in the delicate position of having to ask the overweight woman to swap seats with Miss Skin n Bones.
     
  11. TMetzinger

    TMetzinger Final Approach

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    If I need to ask their weight (because I'm not sure their under the max weight I can put in the plane with the rest of the load), they either give me an answer, or they stay on the ground.
     
  12. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Depends on body shape. For general fatties under 6' tall use 100lbs / ft in diameter is pretty close until you get >4' in diameter then it goes to 150 after that.
     
  13. flygirl34q

    flygirl34q Ejection Handle Pulled

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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    There's a formula??!!!

    :yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes::yikes:
     
  14. TMetzinger

    TMetzinger Final Approach

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    It pains me to think of the research required to come up with that formula. On the other hand, I can't think of anyone more qualified than Henning to do it!
     
  15. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    When you're flying a Navajo and a person who is 5'4 and 4' in diameter fills in "160lbs" on the pax form, you gotta have something to go by...
     
  16. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Not so much a formula as a gouge to determine whether you need to push for more accurate info.
     
  17. flygirl34q

    flygirl34q Ejection Handle Pulled

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    :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rolleyes:

    Thinking this may turn out to be even BETTER than the pee thread! :D
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  18. TMetzinger

    TMetzinger Final Approach

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    OOH, let's open a POA weight-guessing booth at OSH!
     
  19. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    Story from my early flying days. We'd taken the Free Bird down to Florida, and knew there was wx between us and home. We elected to stop in Charlotte, NC. My buddy and his son could find lots to do for a day, and I could see my cousin Debbie, who I'd not seen in at least a decade.

    Debbie's husband Mike, who I always liked, has done quite a bit of flying in his days working for NASCAR. I offered to take him flying, and Debbie asked to come along. To say Debbie is in shape is accurate. Round is a shape.

    I wasn't going to say no. Not to a beloved cousin I hadn't seen in years. Similarly, I wasn't going to ask her weight. Phooey! I had a 5K foot runway, if the thing couldn't take off we'd stop. The Free Bird took off easily, and I headed to a strip I'd found on Airnav that had cheap gas.

    The little strip nestled in the mountains did have really cheap gas. It was a bit of, well, and adventure, the gas was on the honor system, so you just put money in the jar. I had naught but yuppie food stamps, so when we blew through the 80 dollar mark, I just kept going up to 100. That filled the aircraft quite full.

    You can imagine the rest. No, I didn't find leaves or branches in the gear, but there were trees in my windshield for an uncomfortably long time. Had it been ten or 15 degrees hotter I doubt I'd be around writing this.
     
  20. kimberlyanne546

    kimberlyanne546 Final Approach

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    I now officially hate Ed.

    I don't think I am going to make the plane crash and if ANY OF YOU "guess my weight" you can PM him - oh yeah, and I hate spiders, funny avatar Ed.

    Sorry, I'm a girl - I didn't think he would start a thread about this!!!

    Here are some fully body shots (and no they are not from this month and no I have not turned into a giant house since they were taken). I am roughly the same weight give or take ten million pounds:



    [​IMG]




    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]
     
  21. Steve

    Steve En-Route

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    Tracked a pic of Ed's "pax".

    Don't know what his problem is...

    [​IMG]
     
  22. TangoWhiskey

    TangoWhiskey Touchdown! Greaser!

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    @Steve: I'd make her leave the purse on the ground.
     
  23. ron22

    ron22 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I was going to jokingly Say what Ed Kim wont tell you her weight.
    I hate to say it but as a pilot you might have to get over this.

    Since I am rather lager I hated telling people my weight too. Since I am a pilot I understand the reason behind it and now I just tell people.

    Trust me no one really cares other than will we all fit and can we get in enough fuel.
     
  24. kimberlyanne546

    kimberlyanne546 Final Approach

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    I know I "need to get over this" but two things:

    1. I have never been in anyone's plane before, so this is the first time anyone has asked me my weight.

    2. Women who "look like they are 120" often are not and the number for whatever reason makes them uncomfortable.

    Again, not really something about me I want on the internet!

    Thanks, Ed, you're a real doll - !
     
  25. TMetzinger

    TMetzinger Final Approach

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    For those old enough to get the reference...

    I dub Kimberly "Your Basic Nightmare"

    This IS a compliment
    .
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    ..
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    Hint: When Harry Met Sally

    Edit: We have lots of nightmares in this forum, based on the folks I've met in person.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  26. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I remember my first Lifeline flight, and in fact ran across paperwork from it two days ago which I just dug out with the following comment to the office personnel as a flight debrief:

    I had picked up two women (patient and traveling companion) and they had listed their weight as 150 each and 40 pounds of baggage. Well When I arrived I knew they were not 150, and the baggage was pushing 100. I had burned off an hour of fuel before I picked them up and I was probably right at gross. I would have been over had I been topped off. I dropped them off in Waukesha and when Moxie met me at the airport and she said they were both probably 200. The guy on the second leg was definitely over gross, but we were kind of stuck at that point, and he said he should have enough runway to make it.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2011
  27. kimberlyanne546

    kimberlyanne546 Final Approach

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    I demand you explain how I am a nightmare, of which I do not understand your reference.
     
  28. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Chucky was a doll too.

    [​IMG]
     
  29. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

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    It's from a scene in When Harry Met Sally when Harry is talking to Sally and describes her as "your basic nightmare" but wouldn't change anything about her because he realizes he's in love with her...
     
  30. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Judging by the apparent age in the photos and this response, I'm guessing she hasn't seen the movie Tim.....
     
  31. TMetzinger

    TMetzinger Final Approach

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    Not quite... I've addressed this via a PM.
     
  32. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Really, that wasn't at the end of the movie when she leaves her date on NYE, and he's running to catch her? Been a while since I've seen it, but I thought that's where he mentions it.
     
  33. ron22

    ron22 Cleared for Takeoff

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    Now have you ever seen anything on POA saying Ed was a nice guy:rofl:

    And Ed did not say who his passenger was. He does charity flights so it could have just been another one of those. You are the one that said it was about you.

    "He does charity flights" hmm I think that might make Ed a nice guy.
     
  34. Steve

    Steve En-Route

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    :rofl::rofl::rofl:
     
  35. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    My cherokee 140 has a somewhat limited useful load (and has a forward CG limit). I tell my potential pax that I can carry upto xxx pounds in the front seat. If he/she won't agree to confirm that he/she is less than than that, then I can either guess or don't fly.

    Years ago as a student I was doing a W&B before a flight with my CFI. She gave me her weight of 127lbs. I wrote down 135.

    She told me "127"

    I said I was just being conservative and making sure we were under the max gross and...

    She told me "127"

    I said but...

    "127"

    um.

    "I said '127'"

    ok, 127

    My CFI was 5' 8" and apparently somewhat self-conscious about her weight (and for absolutely no reason)
     
  36. ajstoner21

    ajstoner21 Cleared for Takeoff

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    I had no idea this thread was about you until you posted!

    For some reason I feel the need to go on a bike ride though.... :goofy:
     
  37. Henning

    Henning Ejection Handle Pulled

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    Tall girls who look 120 are usually 145 with their purse. As long as a woman looks good, do you think anyone really cares what the weight number is?
     
  38. steingar

    steingar Taxi to Parking

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    To put my Cherokee out of CG, the pax would have to be sufficiently large to not fit in the seat in the first place.
     
  39. EdFred

    EdFred Touchdown! Greaser!

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    There is an updated W&B envelope on the PA28 series that a lot of owners haven't updated. The updated one for (I think) all models of Cherokee140/160/180 should have 2 bends in the knockout of the left upper corner of the loading graph.
     
  40. Bob Noel

    Bob Noel Touchdown! Greaser!

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    My 140 has a few radios and other avionics goodies so that my front pax weight limit is normally due to the forward CG limit. Right now, with me being overweight at 185, my front pax limit is 225 with full fuel. I have taken plenty of paxs that are around 225 or so and they fit fine in the front seat.

    (I suppose technically that the ARM of taller paxs would be farther aft than the standard location in the W&B and therefore less of an issue for the CG limit)