Visual approach cloud clearance question

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farmrjohn

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farmrjohn
Class C or D airport is reporting 500 scattered, 10 miles + visability. Contact tower 10 miles out and they clear you for a straight in approach, report 3 miles. One of those 500 foot scattered clouds is over the extended center line 1 mile prior to the runway. Can you fly the visual straight in or do you need to ask for a special VFR clearance even though the airport if VFR?
 
If you’re IFR, which you would need to be to receive and accept a visual approach clearance, you would just need to stay clear of clouds.

If you’re VFR, you would tell the tower you’re deviating for clouds. They would rather have you fly around the clouds under normal VFR rules than shut down the airspace for a special VFR operation.
 
If there is a cloud on the extended centerline, 1 mile out at 500 feet, you should probably delay trying to land until it moves. You won't be able to go under/over/around the cloud, maintain cloud clearance requirements, and perform a safe descent to a landing unless the runway is like 2 miles long (otherwise, just get permission to deviate and you should be able to land on the latter half of the runway). Even if you join the downwind instead, your base to final turn will not be able to keep safely away from that cloud. My vote is to ask them to enter the pattern at pattern altitude (assuming it is 1000 agl) until the cloud moves. Most people would probably just go around the cloud and convince themselves they were far enough away to meet the intent of the regulations, or something.
 
farmrjohn said:
Class C or D airport is reporting 500 scattered, 10 miles + visability. Contact tower 10 miles out and they clear you for a straight in approach, report 3 miles. One of those 500 foot scattered clouds is over the extended center line 1 mile prior to the runway. Can you fly the visual straight in or do you need to ask for a special VFR clearance even though the airport if VFR?
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If issued straight under VFR (visual flight rules, 3-152 rule applies. A special VFR never allows you to fly through a cloud and you must have 1 sm flight visibility and remain clear of clouds.

A visual approach is an IFR clearance You are required to remain clear of clouds (visual) and there is no minimum flight visibility. For a controller to issue a visual approach, the reported weather of 1000 ft with 3 sm ground visibility is required.

When the reported ceiling and visibility are less than 3 miles and the pilot has 1 sm flight visibility and can remain clear of clouds, the pilot of an IFR clearance may request a contact approach
 
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How short of an approach? If the cloud is one mile out at 500 feet, to remain 2000 feet away horizontally that will only leave you about 3000 horizontal feet to the approach end of the runway. If you perform your turn to final at 500 AGL or higher, you'll need at least a 9 degree glideslope down to the runway which seems too much to me. If the winds allow for the opposite runway, then sure.
 
If the wind is strong, the cloud will soon be gone, just wait.

If the wind is light, the cloud is staying for a while, land down wind. The tower will be glad to give that to you.
 
Some clarification for my question: the tower controller instruction is make a straight in approach, report three miles, not cleared visual approach so there would be no IFR clearance. The clouds are filling in slowly from the departure end toward the arrival end.
 
You have to follow the airspace rules.
 
^which for a class C or D airport is 1000 above 500 below and 2000 either side
 
RingLaserGyroSandwich said:
How short of an approach? If the cloud is one mile out at 500 feet, to remain 2000 feet away horizontally that will only leave you about 3000 horizontal feet to the approach end of the runway. If you perform your turn to final at 500 AGL or higher, you'll need at least a 9 degree glideslope down to the runway which seems too much to me.
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That really depends on what you are flying. Most trainers or STOL or complex with the gear down, pulling the power abeam midfield and making a short approach will easily keep you inside 3000 horizontal feet of the approach end of the runway. A Lancair, perhaps not.
 
farmrjohn said:
Some clarification for my question: the tower controller instruction is make a straight in approach, report three miles, not cleared visual approach so there would be no IFR clearance. The clouds are filling in slowly from the departure end toward the arrival end.
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Ok, VFR. You have several issues.

Scattered is clouds 3/8-4/8 coverage. Scattered clouds are normally easy to fly around.

One option is to advise tower you are unable to maintain VFR for a straight in approach. Suggest an option as you are PIC. Simple maneuvering around the clouds usually does the trick

Option 2 is depart the area and go elsewhere.

Option 3 if the clouds are “closing in” is declaring an emergency and landing.

Option 4 a SFVR would give you a reduction in cloud clearance and visibility requirements (1 mile clear clouds). But ATC will not accept a SVFR request when the airport is VFR. (1000 and 3). Each tower operator is a weather observer by regulation, so for the controller to issue you a Special he has to make the determination the airport is IMC, which stops all other VFR arrivals except specials and stops all IFR visual approaches.
 
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farmrjohn said:
Some clarification for my question: the tower controller instruction is make a straight in approach, report three miles, not cleared visual approach so there would be no IFR clearance. The clouds are filling in slowly from the departure end toward the arrival end.
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I'd suggest editing your OP by replacing "clear you for" with "tell you to make." And delete the word "visual" in the last sentence.
 
RingLaserGyroSandwich said:
...Most people would probably just go around the cloud and convince themselves they were far enough away to meet the intent of the regulations, or something.
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I think you're right. At my home airport, it's not uncommon for there to be scattered clouds off the departure end. It's not possible to tell exactly how far away they are until the aircraft is airborne, which results in cloud-clearance rules getting bent, whether intentional or not. I suspect that the same thing happens with scattered clouds off the approach end.
 
Ask the controller to close the tower until you have landed. The class D becomes class G below 700’ and you only have to remain clear of clouds.

:D
 
It's an interesting issue in the Class C scenario. Separation services are being provided. That means your deviation can have an immediate impact on others. The correct regulatory answer is absolutely to advise Approach you are unable to maintain VFR on your present course. But I have heard others argue that the more reasonable, and actually better, course of action is to treat it like Class B or an IFR visual approach and simply remain clear of those scattered clouds.

Even if that line of reasoning is valid, I don't see it applying to Class D.

is that what your question was getting at?
 
farmrjohn said:
Class C or D airport is reporting 500 scattered, 10 miles + visability. Contact tower 10 miles out and they clear you for a straight in approach, report 3 miles. One of those 500 foot scattered clouds is over the extended center line 1 mile prior to the runway. Can you fly the visual straight in or do you need to ask for a special VFR clearance even though the airport if VFR?
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Now that we know for sure you are VFR and not IFR on a Visual Approach, you can get a SVFR Clearance even though the 'reported' weather is 1000/3 or greater. Whether you'll get it or not is another story. There may be IFR traffic nearby that would prevent the Controller from giving it to you. Or the Controller may get confused with your request. Shouldn't happen but it still seems to happen. There have been a few threads on forums about this in the past couple of years where a controller didn't seem to understand they can do it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's an interesting issue in the Class C scenario. Separation services are being provided. That means your deviation can have an immediate impact on others. The correct regulatory answer is absolutely to advise Approach you are unable to maintain VFR on your present course
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Yes, this. you run into this a fair amount in southern California when the marine layer starts rolling in..
 
luvflyin said:
Now that we know for sure you are VFR and not IFR on a Visual Approach, you can get a SVFR Clearance even though the 'reported' weather is 1000/3 or greater. Whether you'll get it or not is another story. There may be IFR traffic nearby that would prevent the Controller from giving it to you. Or the Controller may get confused with your request. Shouldn't happen but it still seems to happen. There have been a few threads on forums about this in the past couple of years where a controller didn't seem to understand they can do it.
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Not in the AIM, but appears valid.

REFERENCE-

FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 2-4-22, Airspace Classes.

  1. SVFR operations may be authorized for aircraft operating in or transiting a Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E surface area when the primary airport is reporting VFR but the pilot advises that basic VFR cannot be maintained.
 
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midlifeflyer said:
It's an interesting issue in the Class C scenario. Separation services are being provided. That means your deviation can have an immediate impact on others. The correct regulatory answer is absolutely to advise Approach you are unable to maintain VFR on your present course. But I have heard others argue that the more reasonable, and actually better, course of action is to treat it like Class B or an IFR visual approach and simply remain clear of those scattered clouds.

Even if that line of reasoning is valid, I don't see it applying to Class D.

is that what your question was getting at?
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The question was dealing with applying the cloud separation options when making a visual approach when a C or D controlled field (or Class E to the surface) is reporting VMC conditions but had clouds obstructing the arrival path(s) even though the runway threshold is visible on a normal glide path. A Class B or G airport would be clear of clouds so no problems with the separation of 500/100/2000. A similar query would be operating in a 1000' agl pattern with clouds reported below 1500.

Clip4 said:
Not in the AIM, but appears valid.

REFERENCE-

FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 2-4-22, Airspace Classes.

  1. SVFR operations may be authorized for aircraft operating in or transiting a Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E surface area when the primary airport is reporting VFR but the pilot advises that basic VFR cannot be maintained.
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Thanks, good to know SVFR is an option when VFR is being reported, not just if it's IFR
 
farmrjohn said:
The question was dealing with applying the cloud separation options when making a visual approach when a C or D controlled field (or Class E to the surface) is reporting VMC conditions but had clouds obstructing the arrival path(s) even though the runway threshold is visible on a normal glide path. A Class B or G airport would be clear of clouds so no problems with the separation of 500/100/2000. A similar query would be operating in a 1000' agl pattern with clouds reported below 1500.



Thanks, good to know SVFR is an option when VFR is being reported, not just if it's IFR
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keep in mind when you request SVFR under those conditions the controller may not know what we are discussing here.
 
farmrjohn said:
The question was dealing with applying the cloud separation options when making a visual approach
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I thought it was clarified to say it was about an approach under VFR, not a "visual approach" which is an IFR clearance.
 
kkoran said:
Not necessarily. Sometimes it becomes Class E to the ground.
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True. Sometimes.

The point I was sarcastically making is that at the same airport, same traffic, same wx, etc., you need greater cloud clearance when the tower is operational than you do when it's closed.

How does that make any sense?
 
Clip4 said:
Not in the AIM, but appears valid.

REFERENCE-

FAA Order JO 7110.65, Para 2-4-22, Airspace Classes.

  1. SVFR operations may be authorized for aircraft operating in or transiting a Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E surface area when the primary airport is reporting VFR but the pilot advises that basic VFR cannot be maintained.
Click to expand...

I think you found an older 7110.65. That's not found in 2-4-22 anymore. 7110.65Y is the current one. It's in 7-5-1 b. Says the same thing. Yeah, it would be nice if was clearer in the AIM
 
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