Victor airways

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by dfs346, Sep 12, 2020.

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  1. dfs346

    dfs346 Filing Flight Plan

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    The FAA Historical Chronology 1926-1996 states "Jun 1, 1952: Forty-five thousand miles of very-high-frequency (omnirange) airways, referred to as "Victor" airways, were put in operation. Like the then existing 70,000 miles of Federally maintained low-frequency airways, the "Victor" routes were 10 statute miles in width."

    So Victor airways originally had a width of 10 sm (8.68 nm). Today, the standard width is 8nm.

    Does anyone know when the change in width occurred?
     
  2. Dana

    Dana Pattern Altitude

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    Didn't the standard 5sm control zone radius go to 4nm when they became Class D? Maybe around the same time?
     
  3. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    No, they were 4nm either side of the centerline way before the alphabet airspace nonsensense.
     
  4. wrbix

    wrbix Pattern Altitude

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    Source of that first quote?.....suspect someone just approximated to 10 sm so the general public could relate. Close enough for gummint work
     
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  5. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    fixed.
     
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  6. dfs346

    dfs346 Filing Flight Plan

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    On the other hand the FAA Historical Chronology goes on to say: "Jul 1, 1952: All CAA facilities and services were scheduled to begin using knots and nautical miles on this date, establishing a single military-civilian standard measurement for speed and distance used in air navigation. The change had been announced in the CAA Journal on Aug 15, 1950."
    That looks like statute miles were in use until 7.1.1952, and nautical miles thereafter.
     
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  7. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    They didn't "clean" anything up. In fact, they quickly reinstated most of the existing mess.
     
  8. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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  9. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    A B C D E G

    Is easier to remember than more ^#&$^?!@$?! acronyms.

    And the letters at least have a relationship with xponders and VFR when laid out, the old way was just hodgepodge.
     
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  10. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Relationship with xponders?

    Let's see "surface area of controlled airspace designated for an airport" is certainly a whole lot easier than "control zone."

    An "Airport with an operational control tower" is a whole lot better than "airport traffic area."

    The fact that the alphabet stuff is incompletely taken from the ICAO rules and misused which means that it neither helps foreign pilots here or US pilots in other countries. At least we didn't pervert it as bad as the Canadians.
     
  11. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    Yes, they are. We are in agreement.

    Lay out A-G in a straight line. Grab a few colored markers. Pick a color. Draw a line from A => C. These require transponders. Pick another color. Draw line from A => D. Radios. Another color, B => E, visibility etc...

    Every airspace has commonality with the one next to it, and everyone knows their A B Cs...

    Which order does PCA ARSA TCA ATA CCA etc go in and whats the commonality...yeah, didnt think so.

    And we can get rid of some more acronyms.
     
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  12. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    People don't like changes. "What I am used to is, by definition, 'good.' Different than what I am used to is, by definition, 'bad.'"
    Just part of the human condition. Pilots just seem worse because we aspire to whine like jets.
     
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  13. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    What are the differences between ICAO and how we do it?
     
  14. EdFred

    EdFred Taxi to Parking

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    I did my original Ground School when it was the mishmash of acronyms. When I started flying the ABCD was way better. So I was exposed both and found the way we do things now to be much more intuitive.
     
  15. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Hmm. The old way is more like ‘alphabet soup’ airspace than the new way.
     
  16. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'm curious also. I thought there was some consistency in the requirements - pilot qualification, communication, AC services, etc, like Class A is IFR only - but other than that, implementation of where it was used was pretty much a localized thing.
    So, @flyingron, Class A starting at low altitudes, like FL 025 over London and FL015 over Paris is a standard ICAO thing?
     
  17. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Well, curiosity won out. Here's what the ICAO Annex on airspace says (formatting is mine):

    (I don''t know how current it is. It's the 13th edition)

    ==============================
    2.6 Classification of airspaces
    2.6.1 ATS airspaces shall be classified and designated in accordance with the following:

    Class A. IFR flights only are permitted, all flights are provided with air traffic control service and are separated from each other.

    Class B. IFR and VFR flights are permitted, all flights are provided with air traffic control service and are separated from each other.

    Class C. IFR and VFR flights are permitted, all flights are provided with air traffic control service and IFR flights are separated from other IFR flights and from VFR flights. VFR flights are separated from IFR flights and receive traffic information in respect of other VFR flights.

    Class D. IFR and VFR flights are permitted and all flights are provided with air traffic control service, IFR flights are separated from other IFR flights and receive traffic information in respect of VFR flights, VFR flights receive traffic information in respect of all other flights.

    Class E. IFR and VFR flights are permitted, IFR flights are provided with air traffic control service and are separated from other IFR flights. All flights receive traffic information as far as is practical. Class E shall not be used for control zones.

    Class F. IFR and VFR flights are permitted, all participating IFR flights receive an air traffic advisory service and all flights receive flight information service if requested.
    Note.— Where air traffic advisory service is implemented, this is considered normally as a temporary measure only until such time as it can be replaced by air traffic control. (See also PANS-ATM, Chapter 9.)
    Class G. IFR and VFR flights are permitted and receive flight information service if requested.​
    2.6.2 States shall select those airspace classes appropriate to their needs.​
    ==============================
     
  18. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I found this https://www.vatsim.net/pilot-resource-centre/vfr-specific-lessons/icao-airspace-classification
     
  19. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Class C and D in ICAO require clearances, for example. But we still have uncharted "communication with control tower" airspace which doesn't exist in ICAO.
     
  20. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Based on what I'm reading, that's accurate. But it still seems to fit in with the "appropriate to needs" language. I'm not one to complain when we are less restrictive than required :D
     
  21. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Yeah. The ‘rules’ for each of the classes stay the same. It’s just where you put them. Nothing says a Class B has to be around an airport. We could decide for instance that Class B rules should apply to say everything above 10,000.
     
  22. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yeah, but Ron is right about the difference in "clearance" requirements. So there are some differences, although those seem minor when compared to the differences in where they are used.

    For those interested this is the service and requirements chart.

    upload_2020-9-12_12-40-27.png
     
  23. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Yeah, the Airport Traffic Area fiasco. And it sounds like in most of the rest of the world they don’t use the ‘you can go in if you simply establish communication’ thing for C and D.
     
  24. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Yeah. See post above
     
  25. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Airspace can be funny. There was a recent lengthy discussion in a FB group on the LAX Class D airspace. Talk about confusion!
     
  26. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    There's D extensions to a B surface area at KSEA also.
     
  27. red4golf

    red4golf Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I asked a CFI about that one and got a blank stare. A couple of years later while receiving a FR, I asked that CFI the same question and he argued that it was a misprint and there was no such thing....
     
  28. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Sounds more like they was the ones getting a FR.:D
     
  29. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    A lot of differences in airspace around the world. While you still have the alphabet, some are completely left out and some are at different altitudes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspace_class

    We don’t use Danger Areas in the US either.

    9D44E210-ED7A-4D05-A264-4C5331FF0D5C.jpeg
     
  30. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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  31. red4golf

    red4golf Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I did begin to question the school when I started teaching the commercial ground school I was supposed to be a student in. The instructor was young and not used to teaching and the students had so many questions the poor kid was flustered more often than not. I became a presenter and he would add things or make small corrections if I wasn't on the money.

    First time I ever paid to do a job....
     
  32. hindsight2020

    hindsight2020 En-Route

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    When it comes to airspace nit-noids I always ask myself, what would Centurion Jesus do? :D
     
  33. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    I kinda did that when I took an Instrument ground school. I had been away from flying for over 20 years and took it to get a handle on GPS. The instructor was welcoming like the one you had.
     
  34. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    There was a lot of that in the discussion. My favorite was one guy exclaiming, "and you claim to be pilots?" while giving the wrong answer :D
     
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  35. Zeldman

    Zeldman Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Why are they called ''Victor'' airways.??

    Who is Victor and what did he do that was so important that they named airways after him.??

    Things that make you go hmmmmm....
     
  36. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Yes I've seen it. Do you know when they came about? The LAX ones were added at the end of 2011.
     
  37. Velocity173

    Velocity173 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    OA means Afghanistan. D is danger area. Sometimes used for aerostats but I’ve seen it used for mine fields and VIP areas such as around the palace. The R is for restricted areas. Somewhat similar to our restricted areas here. The OAR 411 there at Bagram is a ground / air range.

    The airspace dimensions are unusual as well. Like a lot of countries.

    82522882-BF54-4775-8BF2-06E8C5193AFE.png
     
  38. Larry in TN

    Larry in TN Pattern Altitude

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    Flying in Afghanistan is a unique experience.

    IMAG0315a.jpg
    Just north of Bagram AB. Still on the departure leg departing to the north.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    IMAG0325.jpg
    Bagram AB. I'm pretty sure we're west of the base looking east. This was at the beginning of the box pattern (right turns) that would eventually end with a right-base to the ILS landing north.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    IMAG0340.jpg
    Very dramatic change in the landscape not far south of Kandahar. The orange sand is full desert dunes. Some vehicle tracks were visible.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    IMAG0353.jpg
    These mountains are either the ones just west of Bagram or they are east-southeast of Bagram near the Pakistan border. Looked a lot like southern Arizona but the mountains were much taller.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    We'd get clearances to offset five, or ten, miles from our airway due to operations in progress. Sometimes the TCAS would show a 'swarm' in those areas, presumably drones.
     
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  39. dfs346

    dfs346 Filing Flight Plan

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    To return to the original topic: FAA draft release of June 28, 1962 states: "“Low Altitude VOR Federal Airways [No change in present sections contemplated, except renumbering] … Unless otherwise provided in Subpart B or C of this part, each Low Altitude Federal airway includes the navigable airspace of the United States that lies within five miles of its centerline. … Unless otherwise specified, all mileages in this part are stated as statute miles.”
    So as of that date, Victor airways were still 10 sm (8.68 nm) wide.
    Still haven't tracked down the change to 8 nm ...
     
  40. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    No. I didn't know that about LAX's being that recent. I'm assuming that D was already there and they changed that piece of it from HHR to LAX