Vfr panel upgrade advice please

Pascal Forget

Pascal Forget

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
May 24, 2016
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121
Location
Montreal, QC
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Display name:
Pascal
My aircraft is a DA20-C1 1999. Vfr only, steam gauges. I can probably not justify spending upwards of 30k$ For panel upgrades.

Radios are noisy and this is driving me nuts. I currently have one King KLX125a which more often than not has garbled reception, especially in the springtime whent it’s cold and humid. And a KLX135A which is noisy, possibly because it is connected to a cheap belly antenna. Audio panel is a Bendix King KA 134, which is a little rustic imho.

I want to swap out one of these two radios, probably the KX125 as it is the worst one, and replace it with either a new Garmin Nav/Com, or maybe just a com, or put in a used Garmin 430W and hope I get a clearer radio without all that horrible static. Which option would you take?

With the upcoming decomissioning of most VORs in North America, does it even still make sense for a simple vfr airplane to spend the extra money for a nav/com radio over a com only radio?

I’m also looking at possibly replacing the audio panel with a PS Engineering 8000G. Can anyone report on the effectiveness of the active static control feature of this audio panel?

Lastly I am considering installing a Stratus ES transponder for adsb-out as my ageing transponder will need to be repaced soon.

Ideally I would not want to spend more than 15000$ all in for:
1) getting at least one good radio
2) adsb-out 1090ES (I am located in Canada)
3) Leaving my options open for the future installation of dual Garmin G5s when/if a canadian stc ever becomes available down the road.

I thank you in advance for any advice you may have.
 
You and I have a difference definition of VFR I guess lol
 
The composite airframe can’t be certified for ifr and the pitot is not heated. I fly VFR over long distances and sometimes over hostile, featureless terrain such as the canadian bush and over mountainous terrain (Maine). I’ll take anything that will help with situationsl awareness.
 
Just noticed your in MTL?!
Just got a second place up there (rental for now)

Anywho, just keep the $$$ panel basic and get a good AHRS/ADSB for your iPad with foreflight and use synthetic vision on there as needed.
 
Pascal Forget said:
Yep.
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As I said just go with a iPad solution.

But I was looking for a hangar for part time for my phone plane, damn those folks at the two airports wants a mortgage payment!
 
I already have two ipads on board running Foreflight with sythetic vision.

Still, having to replace one nav/com radio, would you go for a new Garmin, icom or trig radio, or a used Garmin 430 W knowing the 430 W could be used as a waas source for the Stratus and eventually feed dual Garmin G5? I figure even a Garmin 430 W would be better than uthe kx135a in terms of preventing the panel for being too far behind in terms of avionics?
 
Pascal Forget said:
I already have two ipads on board running Foreflight with sythetic vision.

Still, having to replace one nav/com radio, would you go for a new Garmin, icom or trig radio, or a used Garmin 430 W knowing the 430 W could be used as a waas source for the Stratus and eventually feed dual Garmin G5? I figure even a Garmin 430 W would be better than uthe kx135a in terms of preventing the panel for being too far behind in terms of avionics?
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430W

BTW the G5s ain't that great, keep your eye on the dynon skyview
 
Anytime dude, if ya ever want to get some amphib time let me know, I'll be up in your heck of the woods more often these days.
 
James331 said:
But I was looking for a hangar for part time for my phone plane, damn those folks at the two airports wants a mortgage payment!
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I live litterally three blocks from cyhu yet my plane is at cyjn, thirty minutes away, since tie down with electricity is less than half the price there, there are no landing fees, gas is cheaper and there is a control tower and three nice runways. Hangars are also cheaper there.

And unlike cyhu, traffic is light and I can usually take off immediately without having to wait behind 3-4 trainer aircraft
 
Are the radios actually the problem or is it possibly antenna, coax or connection (corrosion) related? Or is it static buildup on your composite airframe in flight? I would have acompetent avionics shop bench test the radios before you junk them unecessarily.

If you do replace one the 430W recommendation earlier is what I would look at too.

Also, on the ADS-B install, you won't need anything ADS-B in Canada for at least a decade, and whatever you do for USA ground station based compliance won't work for any other jurisdiction (everywhere else in the world is going satellite, so the antenna will need to be on the top, not the bottom of the plane). So don't get hung up on the 1090ES if there's a more economical 978MHz UAT option that works for you.
 
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GRG55 said:
Are the radios actually the problem or is it possibly antenna, coax or connection (corrosion) related? Or is it static buildup on your composite airframe in flight? I would have acompetent avionics shop bench test the radios before you junk them unecessarily.

If you do replace one the 430W recommendation earlier is what I would look at too.

Also, on the ADS-B install, you won't need anything ADS-B in Canada for at least a decade, and whatever you do for USA ground station based compliance won't work for any other jurisdiction (everywhere else in the world is going satellite, so the antenna will need to be on the top, not the bottom of the plane). So don't get hung up on the 1090ES if there's a more economical 978MHz UAT option that works for you.
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Thanks for the reply GRG55. I will have an avionics specialist check the radios, coax and antennas this week. Com 1 is embedded in the vertical fin, there could be corrosion in the base grounding plate, very hard to fix. But both radios are noisy, so might be the audio panel or maybe even bad intercom wiring.

As for ADS-B I will go 1090ES as I need to replace my old transponder anyway and besides there is one very compelling argument for 1090Es in Canada, in that Satellites follow me by the minute, and that would help tremendously search and rescue efforts should I crash in the wilderness. You don't have to go very far north in Canada to be completely out of Radar range, and studies have shown that ELTs activate in only 38% of Canadian aircraft accidents where the aircraft sustained substantial damage (http://www.tsb.gc.ca/ENG/rapports-reports/aviation/2015/a15c0130/a15c0130.asp), we know we can’t rely on this outdated technology anymore to be rescued.
 
Why would you need WAAS in an VFR only airplane?

I'd get a basic nav/com, a new audio panel, and leave it at that. Be sure to have a backup power source for the iPad, and you'll be good to go.
 
Pascal Forget said:
Thanks for the reply GRG55. I will have an avionics specialist check the radios, coax and antennas this week. Com 1 is embedded in the vertical fin, there could be corrosion in the base grounding plate, very hard to fix. But both radios are noisy, so might be the audio panel or maybe even bad intercom wiring.

As for ADS-B I will go 1090ES as I need to replace my old transponder anyway and besides there is one very compelling argument for 1090Es in Canada, in that Satellites follow me by the minute, and that would help tremendously search and rescue efforts should I crash in the wilderness. You don't have to go very far north in Canada to be completely out of Radar range, and studies have shown that ELTs activate in only 38% of Canadian aircraft accidents where the aircraft sustained substantial damage (http://www.tsb.gc.ca/ENG/rapports-reports/aviation/2015/a15c0130/a15c0130.asp), we know we can’t rely on this outdated technology anymore to be rescued.
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You should also look into a GPS enabled 406 ELT, as well as a spidertracks or SPOT if you're concerned with having something happen in the bush.

https://www.findmespot.com/en/index.php?cid=101
 
Groundpounder said:
Why would you need WAAS in an VFR only airplane?
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I can't figure that out either. 430W's go for a premium and you don't need that capability at all. A used 430w is probably 3-4x the cost of a brand new com radio. I would not bother with G5's or skyview in a VFR only airplane. The GPS antenna for any of the new 1090es transponders only adds about $400 to the price.

It sounds like your radio problems are due to static and are an issue with installation on a composite airframe and/or old antennas. Instead of dropping a bunch of money on new radios you might be able to get it fixed for a few hundred bucks. If you want new stuff though... I would just get the least expensive new com radio and audio panel that does the job.
 
I agree that the those king radios are generally very good radios and rarely have issues. Especially since you are having issues with both, I think your money is better spent having a good radio shop check out the installation.
A Panel mounted IPad should do everything else you need for VFR, with the exception of upgrading to some form of ADSB. And if you want ADS-B In capability.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Pascal Forget said:
...As for ADS-B I will go 1090ES as I need to replace my old transponder anyway and besides there is one very compelling argument for 1090Es in Canada, in that Satellites follow me by the minute, and that would help tremendously search and rescue efforts should I crash in the wilderness. You don't have to go very far north in Canada to be completely out of Radar range, and studies have shown that ELTs activate in only 38% of Canadian aircraft accidents where the aircraft sustained substantial damage (http://www.tsb.gc.ca/ENG/rapports-reports/aviation/2015/a15c0130/a15c0130.asp), we know we can’t rely on this outdated technology anymore to be rescued.
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:confused: :confused2:

Got to admit I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about here as it relates to ADS-B and 1090ES?
What does that have to do with ELTs, and the far north, out of radar range, in Canada?

You think an FAA compliant 1090ES installation is going to save your bacon if you crash North of 60? How?

Anybody else here understand what Pascal is referring to? Or am just thick headed and don't understand the obvious?? o_O
 
GRG55 said:
:confused: :confused2:

Got to admit I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about here as it relates to ADS-B and 1090ES?
What does that have to do with ELTs, and the far north, out of radar range, in Canada?

You think an FAA compliant 1090ES installation is going to save your bacon if you crash North of 60? How?

Anybody else here understand what Pascal is referring to? Or am just thick headed and don't understand the obvious?? o_O
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Many people believe the satellite based “ADS-B” that’s been in the news lately is satellites watching transponder equipped aircraft.

It’s not. Completely different System, frequencies, and equipment needed to participate.

It mostly started when some press folk caught wind of this new thing under the “NexGen” and “ADS-B” marketing banner when some info was put out by FAA on how it will be used in places like the North Atlantic Ocean away from land in the NAT tracks and such.

It should have never been associated with “ADS-B”. It’s literally a special satellite based tracking system, and NOT done using transponders.

Transponders ... transpond. Something has to hit them with enough RF energy to get them to respond. Satellites aren’t blasting megawatts of RF power on 1090 at the planet to trip transponders, even if they could hear them on orbit, which granted, some might.

Those are usually owned by the spooky folks and are paid for out of unaudited budgets that say “NRO” on them, if you can find them at all. :)
 
That's what I thought might be going on here.

Someone does an FAA compliant 1090ES ADS-B install, and thinks it will do magical things well outside the range of the US ground stations. :sigh:
 
GRG55 said:
That's what I thought might be going on here.

Someone does an FAA compliant 1090ES ADS-B install, and thinks it will do magical things well outside the range of the US ground stations. :sigh:
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1090ES will do some useful things in Europe. I honestly have no idea what it’ll offer in Canada. But yeah, no magical satellite tracking.
 
denverpilot said:
1090ES will do some useful things in Europe. I honestly have no idea what it’ll offer in Canada. But yeah, no magical satellite tracking.
Click to expand...

1090ES coverage for Air Transport aircraft over Hudson's Bay and the North Atlantic (Gander) to allow reduced separation minima on the polar routes.

That's the limit of the current ADS-B in Canada. Nav Canada (think "FAA") keeps making noises about more and wants something like the USA 2020 mandate. Transport Canada (think "DOT"), who actually make the rules, last year said GA doesn't need to do anything for at least a decade.
 
GRG55 said:
1090ES coverage for Air Transport aircraft over Hudson's Bay and the North Atlantic (Gander) to allow reduced separation minima on the polar routes.

That's the limit of the current ADS-B in Canada. Nav Canada (think "FAA") keeps making noises about more and wants something like the USA 2020 mandate. Transport Canada (think "DOT"), who actually make the rules, last year said GA doesn't need to do anything for at least a decade.
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We could send up some FAA ADS-B Marketing experts.

I mean, they don’t have any and they’re more paranoid than we are about not allowing people from south of their border in, who might steal their jobs.

:) :) :) :) :)

Ahh I shouldn’t have gone there. Too easy. LOL.
 
I would fix/replace the radio(s) you have, there is zero reason to blow lots of money on it.

If my ship was gonna be VFR only for the rest of its life, I'd have a transponder, a comm radio, some sort of panel mounted intercom, and maybe a Garmin 660 with an iPad.

Some comms have a built in intercom so kills two birds with one stone.
 
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Maybe I've received incorrect information, or maybe I did not interpret correctly what I received.

About a month ago I met three Nav Canada controllers who handle the class C airspace around Montreal. They say they have set up a monitor showing 1090ES ADS-B traffic side by side their radar displays as a proof of concept and they already unofficially track airplanes outside of radar coverage as a proof of concept.

They also stated that the adsb-out transmissions are logged and thus can be retrieved should there be a need to find out what your flight path had been, for example for search and rescue purposes.

A good read from a canadian operational standpoint:

https://copanational.org/en/2018/05/04/ads-b-what-does-it-do-for-you-2/

snippet:

The significant difference is that today’s transponder (typically Mode C) replies to radar interrogations while the ADS-B Out transponder broadcasts twice every second Automatically, without interrogation or input of any kind. ADS-B Out operates on frequency 1090 MHz Extended Squitter (1090ES) via the Aireon Iridium Next satellite constellation. There is no ground station except those required to collect return signals from the satellites and route these to the relevant Air Traffic Control Units.
 
dell30rb said:
I can't figure that out either. 430W's go for a premium and you don't need that capability at all. A used 430w is probably 3-4x the cost of a brand new com radio.
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You haven't priced out brand new com radios lately, have you?
 
Well I’ll be danged @Pascal Forget - Aireon May be doing tests with Canadian controllers already. They weren’t supposed to be “live” until late 2018 at the earliest, but maybe they’ve deicided to fire up the subsystem on the Iridium NEXT satellites and live with their coverage holes until they finish all of the NEXT launches on SpaceX vehicles.

So if that’s what your controllers are getting a demo of, then yup. ADS-B receivers on orbit and nearly global coverage.

No word yet on whether any governments have decided to pay for service. It’s a commercial venture and even FlightAware is involved as a distributor of data from the ADS-B 1090 receivers on the new Iridium cluster.

I’ll admit, it had been a couple of years since I read about what was coming and their launch plans and timelines were eve further out, but it sounds like the numerous SpaceX successful launches have pushed it up a bit.

Don’t even want to think of what that data stream from that system will cost if they can’t convince governments to take the feed and use it. Some worldwide jet setters and private customers would probably pay through the nose for nearly worldwide coverage with nothing on board but their usual Mode-S transponder.

I suspect you talked to some folks who have actually seen the thing in action. And that Nav Canada went to the trouble to install it where controllers could see it and compare to a real ground based radar system, speaks volumes about their possible interest. Sure saves them money on radar installations and costs in places they’ve never been able to put them.

I’ve seen no documentation that the U.S. “Fusion” system is taking a feed from Aireon or subsidiaries yet. Wouldn’t surprise me at all if NRO got in on that immediately though.

You may have something there in the wilds of Canada to have Mode-S on board. Or other places where there’s no traditional secondary radar installations. Especially in regards to SAR.

Still doesn’t look like it’ll be 100% operational and not have coverage gaps until late this year though.

The first Iridium system was such an incredible taxpayer ripoff, I can’t imagine Iridium NEXT won’t be. Hahaha. Someone in government here will throw billions at those satellite owners for as long as that second cluster remains viable on orbit. Not just for the ADS-B data but for all the other data and phone services they provide.

Neat catch, talking to your Canadian controller friends who may have seen it in action already.
 
How is satellite based ADS-B gonna work when your CESSBEECHPIPE only have a belly mounted transponder antenna?

Eons ago Part 25 aircraft had top and bottom mounted fuselage mounted transponder antennas, so probably all of them already have that.
 
dell30rb said:
Used 430W in good shape going for 7-8 thousand bucks on eBay

New icom TSO’d com radio with tray on aircraft spruce for about $1600. What am I missing?
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Not a thing.

The WAAS coverision for them (4xx/5xx series) have pretty much doubled from what I understand. Anyone who sat on the fence are surely ticked off by now.
 
dell30rb said:
Used 430W in good shape going for 7-8 thousand bucks on eBay

New icom TSO’d com radio with tray on aircraft spruce for about $1600. What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I was thinking Nav/Coms. The TKM replacement variety is close to $3,000, most of the others are close to or over $4,000.

ADS-B is sure pushing those 430W prices up... The GTN 650 isn't that much more!
 
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