VFR Flight Following question....

[N801BH]

OK guys /gals..

I have only been flying for 34 years and I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer so I need to ask a question...

Real deal ...


A few days ago my neighbor needed a ride down to Grand Junction to pick up his jet that was getting repaired after a 6 figure paint job had " less then quality" work.... So I fly him down in his Skylane ( 1.75 hours -v- 8 hours driving / commercial flight)..

Flight down at 9 AM was rather smooth with a little weather moving in from the west.. I drop him off, make a pit stop and hop back in the plane for my return flight back to Jackson Hole...

Light off the motor, taxi to 11, make a left downwind departure and once out of the Delta I call Denver departure on 119.7 for FF back to the hole, get a code and climb up to 12,500, intercept the magenta line of death and hit the AP button..

Instant right turn and it dives down at 2000FPM..... I try to couple it 4-5 more times and same thing... Disclaimer : I am new to the G1000 stuff as I am a steam gauge kinda person, but I did confirm I had 12,500 in the target box and KGJT > KJAC on my screen and it was in green color...

So, I got tired of recovering from steep dives and right turns, hitting the AP disconnect button and getting the tone in my headset and decide to hand fly it home... After all, I have been hand flying my whole life so no biggie..

Denver gives me a freq change, I check in and all is well... 30 minutes or so later I get another hand off to SLC center, dial in the freq and hear ALOT of chatter,, I tried to get a word in edgewise for 5 minutes or so but they never got back to me...

Here is where it gets sideways.......

In front of me is a line for rain showers moving west to east, at this stage it is just rain shafts that I can see though and the ceiling is dropping a bit, then I see a stoke of lighinging . so I make the executive decision to not continue to try and contact SLC sector since I would be needing lower and left and right of course to clear weather so I announce 75K is cancelling FF and squawking 1200, good day... I turn down the volume to concentrate of flying the plane....

Now...........On all call ups, ATC will say "maintain VFR" and since FF is " workload permitting" and they can dump us at a whim, I assumed I could dump them too... And MY workload was greater then theirs as I needed to maintain VFR and get home safely as I picked my way through the weather..

Since I am above 10 grand I needed 1000 below, 1000 above, 2000 horizontal and 5 miles I had to decend to 9500 at times and climb back up to12,500 when I could.. Ya see, I usually fly a experimental with a Ford in it and you never know when it will blow up so I always cruise as high as possible, and even though this plane runs good, you don't know if this one will do something stupid and scare the crap out of me.. So,, I always buy the greatest gliding distance..

An hour later I safely land back in the hole and on roll out I hear those dreaded words " Call The Tower"... DAMN... First time in 34 years of flying....

I make the call and altho the tower guys are really kool, they tell me SLC center called and bitched that should have NEVER just switched to 1200 without their explicit approval.... I say sorry and thank them for not chewing me out worse then they did....

Question..... Did I really screw up ??.

Or was center ragging on me for no reason...


Thanks for all the feed back I get...

 

[Ravioli]

I've had similar where I thought I had checked off with Center and hadn't. They had a nearby plane raise me on the CTAF, I confirmed back to them that I was okay, and it was over with.

I think I said 15 miles east, airport in sight. And I think they canceled ME but they probably canceled someone else.

In the end, I'm glad they were watching my back and we got it straight without getting search and rescue involved.

 

[Approach_controller]

Sounds like ATC never heard you cancel for any number of reasons assuming you received to reply which you don't indicate that you did. Then they wondered why you were NORDO flying seemingly erratically. Behind the scenes they were forced to call and report the NORDO and as a result needed to get what happened to close everything out.

You didn't do anything wrong and after they found out what went on they'll understand.

 

[Perezhr]

I think we have all been there, that is, trying to reach a controller but unable to get a word in due to congested frequency. I can relate exactly as I've had to take action to avoid weather but the controller is too busy to respond. In such cases, rather than canceling FF, I simply state my intentions and do it. "approach Mooney XYX turning 20 degrees left to avoid weather" typically within a few minutes the controller will call back with "deviation approved". I figure if he does not like what I'm about to do he will let me know right away. Bottom line....I stay in the system, tell him what I'm doing, and wait for him to get a breather to respond.

 

[Brad Z]

OK guys /gals..

I have only been flying for 34 years and I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer so I need to ask a question...

Real deal ...


A few days ago my neighbor needed a ride down to Grand Junction to pick up his jet that was getting repaired after a 6 figure paint job had " less then quality" work.... So I fly him down in his Skylane ( 1.75 hours -v- 8 hours driving / commercial flight)..

Flight down at 9 AM was rather smooth with a little weather moving in from the west.. I drop him off, make a pit stop and hop back in the plane for my return flight back to Jackson Hole...

Light off the motor, taxi to 11, make a left downwind departure and once out of the Delta I call Denver departure on 119.7 for FF back to the hole, get a code and climb up to 12,500, intercept the magenta line of death and hit the AP button..

Instant right turn and it dives down at 2000FPM..... I try to couple it 4-5 more times and same thing... Disclaimer : I am new to the G1000 stuff as I am a steam gauge kinda person, but I did confirm I had 12,500 in the target box and KGJT > KJAC on my screen and it was in green color...

So, I got tired of recovering from steep dives and right turns, hitting the AP disconnect button and getting the tone in my headset and decide to hand fly it home... After all, I have been hand flying my whole life so no biggie..

Denver gives me a freq change, I check in and all is well... 30 minutes or so later I get another hand off to SLC center, dial in the freq and hear ALOT of chatter,, I tried to get a word in edgewise for 5 minutes or so but they never got back to me...

Here is where it gets sideways.......

In front of me is a line for rain showers moving west to east, at this stage it is just rain shafts that I can see though and the ceiling is dropping a bit, then I see a stoke of lighinging . so I make the executive decision to not continue to try and contact SLC sector since I would be needing lower and left and right of course to clear weather so I announce 75K is cancelling FF and squawking 1200, good day... I turn down the volume to concentrate of flying the plane....

Now...........On all call ups, ATC will say "maintain VFR" and since FF is " workload permitting" and they can dump us at a whim, I assumed I could dump them too... And MY workload was greater then theirs as I needed to maintain VFR and get home safely as I picked my way through the weather..

Since I am above 10 grand I needed 1000 below, 1000 above, 2000 horizontal and 5 miles I had to decend to 9500 at times and climb back up to12,500 when I could.. Ya see, I usually fly a experimental with a Ford in it and you never know when it will blow up so I always cruise as high as possible, and even though this plane runs good, you don't know if this one will do something stupid and scare the crap out of me.. So,, I always buy the greatest gliding distance..

An hour later I safely land back in the hole and on roll out I hear those dreaded words " Call The Tower"... DAMN... First time in 34 years of flying....

I make the call and altho the tower guys are really kool, they tell me SLC center called and bitched that should have NEVER just switched to 1200 without their explicit approval.... I say sorry and thank them for not chewing me out worse then they did....

Question..... Did I really screw up ??.

Or was center ragging on me for no reason...


Thanks for all the feed back I get...

They were doing exactly what they should have done when you didn't check in. If I were you, I would have switched back to the last frequency and let the controller know I wasn't able to check in and that I was canceling FF. He'll pass it on to the busy controller for you.

 

[MtnMarcus]

Hey Ben I cannot comment on the FF question, but I do want to inquire about the flight itself. I fly my Skylane from Sun Valley, ID (KSUN) to Rifle, CO (KRIL) a few times a month and always depart early and am typically on the ground by around 10am going to and from. What were the temps the day you flew and how was turbulence as the routes are over a lot of similar/same terrain? Flying beyond 11 or noon over that terrain is something I have tried to avoid this summer as I always have my wife and a kid or two on board and want to avoid any bumpy convective air that would scare them. Thanks

 

[docmirror]

OK, I'm not the sharpest too in the freezer either, and I really, really, really don't care for FF just exactly for these kind of reasons.

Facts in evidence that are relevant.

1. They had you on the screen, whether you checked in or not, they had you with a discrete code, and presuming a mode C alt.
2. They knew about the weather in general terms, because they are chatting with a dozen other planes, AND they have their own briefing, so they knew you were headed into the belly of the beast.
3. Because of the phone call, and the confirmation by the tower person they also knew that you didn't just fall out of the sky, and had in fact switched to 1200 VFR, thus relinquishing your FF "REQUEST". They knew! the tower told you they knew you went to 1200, he said it!

Now, here's where things get interesting, and moves from facts in evidence to op-ed. ATC doesn't like it when you drop them without notice, or without confirmation of notice: "Spamcan 123, squawk VFR, resume own navigation, have a nice day". Notice that sometimes you'll get the 'resume own navigation' and sometimes you won't. Even if you are in class G or E! Why would they tell you to resume your own nav, in uncontrolled? The reason this wasn't a violation is because although they don't LIKE it they can't DO anything about it right now.

Which leads to my tin-foil hat territory. In not too many years, the FAA will control directly all flights in the air with the exception of a few ultralights far, far from any habitation. Everything over 256Lbs will have a code before departure, and will be tracked from source to dest. It's coming, and the recent ADS-B, and stuff like this with FF are preparing the pilots of tomorrow to knuckle under with little complaint.

Bottom line, you did nothing that is actionable but they want you to know that they didn't appreciate you doing your own thing in your own plane, in uncontrolled without their 'permission' even though it's not required. Years ago, I used to drop FF all the time in SoCal just by changing the txp to 1200 and changing freq. Slowly but surely, things changed, and there was a lot more oversight involved. It's coming. Get ready for the probe.

/rant

 

[steingar]

I haven't used FF for years do to stuff like this. Often I have folks in the airplane and don't want to listen for my tail number. Don't like getting jacked around either. I can spot traffic for myself, and they can't see anyone without a transponder anyway.

 

[N801BH]

Thanks for the feedback so far.....

I should have added... I did stay on freq for a minute or so to see if they would get back to me. My roll as PIC is to finish a flight safely.. And I did...

 

[N801BH]

Hey Ben I cannot comment on the FF question, but I do want to inquire about the flight itself. I fly my Skylane from Sun Valley, ID (KSUN) to Rifle, CO (KRIL) a few times a month and always depart early and am typically on the ground by around 10am going to and from. What were the temps the day you flew and how was turbulence as the routes are over a lot of similar/same terrain? Flying beyond 11 or noon over that terrain is something I have tried to avoid this summer as I always have my wife and a kid or two on board and want to avoid any bumpy convective air that would scare them. Thanks

It got to be a handful trying to maintain a constant altitude, miss the weather and stay on the magenta line of death and try to figure out the G1000 screen and AP's inability to capture the flight plan loaded into it....

Ps... That whiskey compass was a wonderful thing for about 30 minutes of the flight...

 

[docmirror]

I was headed out of N AZ once headed through S CO and into PUB. I got a briefing and had to stop for a while so when I started back again, the bumpers were building. Mr Toad's wild ride! Yeehaa. Only time I've had to go lock to lock at maneuvering speed. Decided to turn right for a while and exercise some discretion and go around the gunk. Lucky, no pax on that one.

 

[cowman]

Question in regards to FF.... assuming one is in class E airspace... does the FF controller hold the same authority over me as say the tower in a class C/D airspace environment?

I was under the impression that as this was an optional service and I'm operating VFR I'm technically free to do whatever I want within normal VFR flight rules. Speaking practically I can think of no good reason not to comply with the controller's requests or to inform them of any changes in direction/altitude I may have... but I thought I could if I wanted to.

 

[Palmpilot]

Question in regards to FF.... assuming one is in class E airspace... does the FF controller hold the same authority over me as say the tower in a class C/D airspace environment?

I was under the impression that as this was an optional service and I'm operating VFR I'm technically free to do whatever I want within normal VFR flight rules. Speaking practically I can think of no good reason not to comply with the controller's requests or to inform them of any changes in direction/altitude I may have... but I thought I could if I wanted to.

In recent years, the FAA Chief Counsel came out with an opinion that if you're talking to them in controlled airspace (class E or above), then you have to follow their instructions, per 91.123(b). I don't know whether there is any case law on it yet.

 

[Approach_controller]

Question in regards to FF.... assuming one is in class E airspace... does the FF controller hold the same authority over me as say the tower in a class C/D airspace environment?

I was under the impression that as this was an optional service and I'm operating VFR I'm technically free to do whatever I want within normal VFR flight rules. Speaking practically I can think of no good reason not to comply with the controller's requests or to inform them of any changes in direction/altitude I may have... but I thought I could if I wanted to.

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2014/January/Pilot/Pilot-Counsel-ATC-instructions

Its very nebulous. Just like anything else and the OP's situation. You are the PIC. Do what you need and if need be explain later. If there is a safety of flight concern that caused the deviation nobody will second guess you. Like OP you may be asked to call, but a reasonable explanation is all that is needed.

 

[MAKG1]

If you JUST hit the AP button, it should go into pitch and roll mode and hold attitude only. Following the magenta line requires also hitting the NAV button. A common error is having the CDI set wrong. To get out of pitch mode, you would need ALT, plus VS, FLC or VNAV. VS initially holds the current vertical speed, and FLC holds the airspeed; both can be adjusted with the up and down buttons.

So, I think you have a problem that needs attention.

 

[N801BH]

If you JUST hit the AP button, it should go into pitch and roll mode and hold attitude only. Following the magenta line requires also hitting the NAV button. A common error is having the CDI set wrong. To get out of pitch mode, you would need ALT, plus VS, FLC or VNAV. VS initially holds the current vertical speed, and FLC holds the airspeed; both can be adjusted with the up and down buttons.

So, I think you have a problem that needs attention.

You "might" be correct on why it didn't couple, altho I am not entirely sure the data was not corrupt... Who knows...

Easiest way to fix it is to not fly the G1000 any more... Easy Pleasy...

 

[MAKG1]

I don't think you can explain a 2000 FPM dive without a problem.

I'm sure you wouldn't lean on the DOWN button or wind the trim down or yank the power without realizing it.

Even if you told it to descend by setting the ALT bug to 2000 instead of 12000, it's not going to do it nearly that fast.

 

[Sundancer]

Hey, you made the call to cancel, 'nuff said. . .you aren't asking permission to cancel, you're informing them of a decision that's your perogative. If they failed to have adequate resources in place to sort through the radio traffic, that's thier problem, and not/not a reason to take a risk on your part.

I don't know, but I bet they were busy as heck, and with thunder-bumpers about, the available airspace was getting constrained, seperation was tight, and their workload was awful. I feel thier pain; but not your problem.

 

[N801BH]

I don't think you can explain a 2000 FPM dive without a problem.

I'm sure you wouldn't lean on the DOWN button or wind the trim down or yank the power without realizing it.

Even if you told it to descend by setting the ALT bug to 2000 instead of 12000, it's not going to do it nearly that fast.

You are probably correct..... I just know what it did..... And I do know I was able to aviate, navigate and communicate as I got home safe and sound...

Clearly I need to get additional training on the full functions of the nav/ AP side of the Garmin...

Thanks for the feedback sir..

 

[RV10flyer]

They were doing exactly what they should have done when you didn't check in. If I were you, I would have switched back to the last frequency and let the controller know I wasn't able to check in and that I was canceling FF. He'll pass it on to the busy controller for you.

This is what I have done and other times they will provide me with another freq to call.

 

[Shawn]

so I make the executive decision to not continue to try and contact SLC sector since I would be needing lower and left and right of course to clear weather

Question in regards to FF.... assuming one is in class E airspace... does the FF controller hold the same authority over me as say the tower in a class C/D airspace environment?

So here was part of the misunderstanding regarding FF. Other than the challenge of checking in, you were VFR and were free to fly whatever heading and altitude you wanted (assuming you were clear of B, C & D)...without even telling them. You could fly in circles and loops if you wanted but unless you were given "maintain at or above XX,000" instruction or "Fly heading of XXX" you can fly any course you want without "clearance" to do so regardless of what you destination and flight plan is

The AIM stated that VFR pilots on FF "should" advise ATC of any altitude changes (note is says advise, NOT request and SHOULD, not MUST)...if you can't get a word in...fly what you need to and wait for a chance to check in. If you do not, they will eventually call for YOU to see if you made it to their frequency looking for you. Guarantee there was eventually a call on that frequency looking for you once the controller realized that you had not checked in.

Without confirmation that you are switching, they have no idea what happened to you...thus further increasing their workload on what sounds like a busy day.

Long story short...No, do not just drop out of the system with at least confirming with someone.

.

 

[N801BH]

So here was part of the misunderstanding regarding FF. Other than the challenge of checking in, you were VFR and were free to fly whatever heading and altitude you wanted (assuming you were clear of B, C & D)...without even telling them. You could fly in circles and loops if you wanted but unless you were given "maintain at or above XX,000" instruction or "Fly heading of XXX" you can fly any course you want without "clearance" to do so regardless of what you destination and flight plan is

The AIM stated that VFR pilots on FF "should" advise ATC of any altitude changes (note is says advise, NOT request and SHOULD, not MUST)...if you can't get a word in...fly what you need to and wait for a chance to check in. If you do not, they will eventually call for YOU to see if you made it to their frequency looking for you. Guarantee there was eventually a call on that frequency looking for you once the controller realized that you had not checked in.

Without confirmation that you are switching, they have no idea what happened to you...thus further increasing their workload on what sounds like a busy day.

Long story short...No, do not just drop out of the system with at least confirming with someone.

.

Agreed....... Kinda...

I didn't really "drop out of the system".... I started squawking 1200 VFR and continued on course as close as possible toward Jackson Hole.. They could see I didn't crash.......

Next time I will try to reestablish contact....

 

[docmirror]

Without confirmation that you are switching, they have no idea what happened to you...thus further increasing their workload on what sounds like a busy day.

Long story short...No, do not just drop out of the system with at least confirming with someone.

.

Sorry, but the tower confirmed that center got his 1200 squawk. They were aware that he left the system and was no longer getting FF. Sure, it would be best to advise them, but the pilot is the pilot. He had an operable TXP in the plane, with an operable mode C, and he set it to the correct freq for the operation in question.

Which is why it isn't a violation -- yet.

 

[Shawn]

I was under the impression that as this was an optional service and I'm operating VFR I'm technically free to do whatever I want within normal VFR flight rules. Speaking practically I can think of no good reason not to comply with the controller's requests or to inform them of any changes in direction/altitude I may have... but I thought I could if I wanted to.

You are free to fly whatever and wherever you want, but if on FF you ARE obligated to comply with controller instructions. If you do not like said instructions you are free to cancel FF and go on you merry way...just as they are free to dump you, but it is a two way street in my eyes.

As I mentioned above, unless you are given a specific heading or altitude (which I get all the time flying through Southern California), you are only obligated that according to the AIM, you "should" advise the controller of altitude changes.

 

[Shawn]

I didn't really "drop out of the system".... I started squawking 1200 VFR and continued on course as close as possible toward Jackson Hole.. They could see I didn't crash

Sorry, but the tower confirmed that center got his 1200 squawk.

Which is why it isn't a violation -- yet.

But this is exactly WHY it WILL become a violation if pilots continue to just switch without confirmation...in this case they probably were able to put two and two together that their FF squawk was now that 1200 target...but if you are in an area with a lot of 1200 targets on their screen and ATC is not watching you, how do they know which 1200 target was their guy that they are looking for?

On an admittedly busy frequency, that takes a lot of resources and time away from keeping the system flowing.

 

[Palmpilot]

By the way, I had an experience that confirmed for me that while advising ATC in advance of VFR altitude changes is only a "should" in the AIM, it really is a good idea: While on flight following recently, I initiated a climb without saying anything, and part way through the climb, the controller advised me that I was climbing into opposite direction traffic, which I didn't see until he pointed it out!

 

[azure]

Question in regards to FF.... assuming one is in class E airspace... does the FF controller hold the same authority over me as say the tower in a class C/D airspace environment?

I was under the impression that as this was an optional service and I'm operating VFR I'm technically free to do whatever I want within normal VFR flight rules. Speaking practically I can think of no good reason not to comply with the controller's requests or to inform them of any changes in direction/altitude I may have... but I thought I could if I wanted to.

And in most cases, although you might not understand the reasons for those instructions, the controller probably has good ones for issuing them, and it is probably wise to comply not just to avoid the wrath of the FAA, but also for reasons of safety.

When I lived in the Detroit area I was at least twice told I was "cleared into the Bravo" while within the horizontal extent of the Class B airspace but below it, assigned an altitude that kept me below the Class B, and then vectored around as if I was indeed inside the Class B. Judging from the location and altitude of the heavies that I saw on my ADS-B display and occasionally through the windshield, I was quite happy to comply, even though I didn't understand (and still don't) why the controller "cleared me into the Bravo" only to keep me out of it. Maybe the TRACON interprets 91.123 (b) as insufficient to force pilot compliance in Class E airspace and instead, wants to set up a condition where they're confident that 91.123 (a) applies.

 

[Shawn]

By the way, I had an experience that confirmed for me that while advising ATC in advance of VFR altitude changes is only a "should" in the AIM, it really is a good idea

This is one area that is always up for debate and a source of confusion for pilots and frustration for ATC.

Should advise means just that, advise...not ask...not request...advise.

The call is as simple as:

"Center, Slylane XYZ, VFR climb to 8,500"...heck, you can even leave out the "VFR" if you want.

NOT

"Center...uhhh..Sky...Lane......XYZ, can I get higher?"

or

"Center, Mooney XYZ, request 8,500"

You response to #1 will either be "roger", "VFR altitude your discretion" or as I often get back from ATC...simply "Thanks".

If they get crabby, their problem. You fulfilled the recommendations of the AIM

#2 and #3 however require a back and forth unnecessary exchange tying up airtime usually with the controller getting frustrated that they have to tell yet another VFR pilot "Altitude at your discretion" and clarification.

 

[asicer]

"approach Mooney XYX turning 20 degrees left to avoid weather" typically within a few minutes the controller will call back with "deviation approved".

I don't even get that. Even when the frequency is slow as molasses the only thing I ever get in response to something like that is "roger".

 

[RV10flyer]

And in most cases, although you might not understand the reasons for those instructions, the controller probably has good ones for issuing them, and it is probably wise to comply not just to avoid the wrath of the FAA, but also for reasons of safety.

When I lived in the Detroit area I was at least twice told I was "cleared into the Bravo" while within the horizontal extent of the Class B airspace but below it, assigned an altitude that kept me below the Class B, and then vectored around as if I was indeed inside the Class B. Judging from the location and altitude of the heavies that I saw on my ADS-B display and occasionally through the windshield, I was quite happy to comply, even though I didn't understand (and still don't) why the controller "cleared me into the Bravo" only to keep me out of it. Maybe the TRACON interprets 91.123 (b) as insufficient to force pilot compliance in Class E airspace and instead, wants to set up a condition where they're confident that 91.123 (a) applies.

I got the same "Cleared into Bravo" at Detroit last year. I think it is one of those "just in case I get busy and forget to give you a new heading" here is your clearance ahead of time. Never needed it but was nice to have.

 

[luvflyin]

OK guys /gals..

......so I make the executive decision to not continue to try and contact SLC sector since I would be needing lower and left and right of course to clear weather

I didn't read where you had been assigned any heading, route or altitude. You didn't need their permission for lower and left and right of course. It's nice of course to let them know. Unless the chatter on the frequency was truly distracting I'd have just continued on dodging the weather and maybe trying to raise them every now and then. When they saw you pinballing through the sky they may have called you. You violated no rule or regulation that I can think of though by doing what you did

 

[luvflyin]

OK, I'm not the sharpest too in the freezer either, and I really, really, really don't care for FF just exactly for these kind of reasons.

Facts in evidence that are relevant.

1. They had you on the screen, whether you checked in or not, they had you with a discrete code, and presuming a mode C alt.
2. They knew about the weather in general terms, because they are chatting with a dozen other planes, AND they have their own briefing, so they knew you were headed into the belly of the beast.
3. Because of the phone call, and the confirmation by the tower person they also knew that you didn't just fall out of the sky, and had in fact switched to 1200 VFR, thus relinquishing your FF "REQUEST". They knew! the tower told you they knew you went to 1200, he said it!

Now, here's where things get interesting, and moves from facts in evidence to op-ed. ATC doesn't like it when you drop them without notice, or without confirmation of notice: "Spamcan 123, squawk VFR, resume own navigation, have a nice day". Notice that sometimes you'll get the 'resume own navigation' and sometimes you won't. Even if you are in class G or E! Why would they tell you to resume your own nav, in uncontrolled? The reason this wasn't a violation is because although they don't LIKE it they can't DO anything about it right now.

Which leads to my tin-foil hat territory. In not too many years, the FAA will control directly all flights in the air with the exception of a few ultralights far, far from any habitation. Everything over 256Lbs will have a code before departure, and will be tracked from source to dest. It's coming, and the recent ADS-B, and stuff like this with FF are preparing the pilots of tomorrow to knuckle under with little complaint.

Bottom line, you did nothing that is actionable but they want you to know that they didn't appreciate you doing your own thing in your own plane, in uncontrolled without their 'permission' even though it's not required. Years ago, I used to drop FF all the time in SoCal just by changing the txp to 1200 and changing freq. Slowly but surely, things changed, and there was a lot more oversight involved. It's coming. Get ready for the probe.

/rant

Amen. United States Class C anyone. Ya'all may wanna check those ADSB coverage maps and move before all the hangar space in the "gaps" is gone.

 

[flyingron]

I've found that I've flown out of contact with ATC. I was over on the Eastern Shore and found I couldn't hear them anymore, so I just cancelled in the blind and squawked 1200. By the time I reached Ocean City there were people attempting to relay calls from approach to me over the CTAF.

I've been asked by ZTL to pop over to the CTAF at SVH to inquire if someone was safely down.

It's far better that ATC hunt down people that disappear on them then have someone crash and not be noticed. There have been a couple of these. One, disturbingly enough, was an IFR plane on approach who told the controller that conditions were pretty bad and he'd probably be back on the missed. The controller just forgot about him. Nobody realized it until they found the wreck the next day.

 

[MAKG1]

Last weekend, I lost contact with Approach due to terrain, close to a Class D I was operating near and expecting to clip.

I announced in the blind that I was changing frequencies and kept the code.

When I climbed later, I re-contacted Approach.

They weren't terribly happy, but no further consequence.

In retrospect, a better strategy might have been to ask another aircraft to relay.

 

[docmirror]

But this is exactly WHY it WILL become a violation if pilots continue to just switch without confirmation...in this case they probably were able to put two and two together that their FF squawk was now that 1200 target...but if you are in an area with a lot of 1200 targets on their screen and ATC is not watching you, how do they know which 1200 target was their guy that they are looking for?

On an admittedly busy frequency, that takes a lot of resources and time away from keeping the system flowing.

Exactly correct. This will become a violation.

How do they know? They don't, and that's what will catch us so that we can't leave the system voluntarily. I already pointed this out.

 

[azure]

I got the same "Cleared into Bravo" at Detroit last year. I think it is one of those "just in case I get busy and forget to give you a new heading" here is your clearance ahead of time. Never needed it but was nice to have.

Sometimes they do that, I agree, but other times, as in the cases I was talking about, they give you the Bravo clearance but then vector you around and assign you altitudes that keep you out of it. It just doesn't make any sense to me. It's almost as if they think that by giving you a *clearance* they now have the authority to treat you as being under positive control, even though you're not in the airspace where the stated clearance applies.

Maybe the answer is somewhere hidden deep in the arcane recesses of the 7110.65.

Edit to clarify that this has nothing to do with Ben's situation, where I agree that the reason he was asked to call the tower is far more likely to be that they were concerned that he had simply disappeared and wanted to make sure that he knew that raises issues at Center with possible SAR activation.

 

[N801BH]

Sometimes they do that, I agree, but other times, as in the cases I was talking about, they give you the Bravo clearance but then vector you around and assign you altitudes that keep you out of it. It just doesn't make any sense to me. It's almost as if they think that by giving you a *clearance* they now have the authority to treat you as being under positive control, even though you're not in the airspace where the stated clearance applies.

Maybe the answer is somewhere hidden deep in the arcane recesses of the 7110.65.

Kinda makes you wonder of their tactics..

 

[Sundancer]

Yeah, there are two imperatives here, which mostly align, but not always - ATC's job is traffic separation. Ours is survival. They were somewhat annoyed, but no real harm done, and 99.999% of what you did was spot on, to my mind.

Would it have ben nice to get a confirmation? Or go back to the previous freq? Sure, but you were kinda busy, and had other, higher, priorities. I imagine it did inconvenience ATC, but you weren't being capricious, and really, too bad for them. Their system design is gacked for situations when airspace is constrained by T-storms, and there are lot's of airplanes to keep separated. Not the controller's fault, and not yours, and you should feel free to blow them off in that situation.

Not saying we shouldn't cooperate to the max possible, but no one in the ATC facility was gonna rain down in bloody chunks after penetrating a cell, either.

 

[MAKG1]

Exactly correct. This will become a violation.

How do they know? They don't, and that's what will catch us so that we can't leave the system voluntarily. I already pointed this out.

No it won't, anymore than setting off an ELT is a violation.

It has the same consequence. Someone thinks you're dead and will check it out, unnecessarily. False alarms take up resources that should be used for other things, which is why people get annoyed.

If you were to stay on the code, it wouldn't look like you crashed.

No need to get the tinfoil hats out. ATC is not out to "get" you. Quite the opposite, actually.

 

[docmirror]

No it won't, anymore than setting off an ELT is a violation.

It has the same consequence. Someone thinks you're dead and will check it out, unnecessarily. False alarms take up resources that should be used for other things, which is why people get annoyed.

If you were to stay on the code, it wouldn't look like you crashed.

No need to get the tinfoil hats out. ATC is not out to "get" you. Quite the opposite, actually.

Did the ELT assign you a specific code and tell you you were in radar contact?

I didn't say ATC is out to 'get' you, now did I?

Got anymore goofy things to throw at the wall?