VFR Altitude

cowtowner

cowtowner

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Cowtowner
So I'm headed north east from Texas to Illinois last Friday and it was a great day to fly. I'm on FF cruising along at 3,000ft above Oklahoma because it was early, so it was smooth, and I had a 6 knot tailwind.

Foreflight was predicting no tailwind at 3,500 and a headwind at 5,500

When handed off to a new sector, the controller comes on and asks if "Are you going to fly at a VFR altitude?"

I respond "Affirmative, I'm at a VFR altitude"

He responds, "Actually you aren't"

I responded "Actually I am, but I will climb to 3,500"

Airport below me is at 812ft, putting me 2,188 ft above the earth....according to 91.159 I'm at a VFR altitude.

I had a couple of choices with this guy, climb to 3,500 and check to see if I still had my tailwind, or just cancel FF and continue on my way.

I climbed to 3,500, lost about half my tailwind but remained there and stewed for the 40 minutes to I got handed off to Razorback approach who didn't care what altitude I was at as long as I "remained VFR"

If the guy had issues with radar coverage at that altitude, he should have told me that like they do in certain sectors I fly a lot.

What say the peanut gallery?
 
3000 MSL is not a VFR altitude. Eastbound would be 3500/5500/7500 etc. West bound 4500/6500/8500/etc. All in MSL. VFR altitudes are not in AGL.
 
1000RR said:
3000 MSL is not a VFR altitude. Eastbound would be 3500/5500/7500 etc. West bound 4500/6500/8500/etc. All in MSL. VFR altitudes are not in AGL.
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You might want to brush up on the regs

Except while holding in a holding pattern of 2 minutes or less, or while turning, each person operating an aircraft under VFR in level cruising flight more than 3,000 feet above the surface shall maintain the appropriate altitude or flight level prescribed below, unless otherwise authorized by ATC:

(a) When operating below 18,000 feet MSL and -

(1) On a magnetic course of zero degrees through 179 degrees, any odd thousand foot MSL altitude + 500 feet (such as 3,500, 5,500, or 7,500); or

(2) On a magnetic course of 180 degrees through 359 degrees, any even thousand foot MSL altitude + 500 feet (such as 4,500, 6,500, or 8,500).

(b) When operating above 18,000 feet MSL, maintain the altitude or flight level assigned by ATC.
 
Just like pilots, there are going to be a few controllers that don’t remember the 3,000 AGL and below exception. I fly at 3,000 MSL all the time going thru CHA and they never say a word. Probably because they know the rules. ;)
 
cowtowner said:
You might want to brush up on the regs
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No need to brush up... Nothing I said was incorrect... at least I thought I said VFR altitudes are in MSL not AGL and 3000 is not a VFR altitude (as it relates to cruising altitudes per the reg). But I did miss the part where you said you said you were 2200 AGL - so my apologies for missing that.
 
1000RR said:
No need to brush up... Nothing I said was incorrect... at least I thought I said VFR altitudes are in MSL not AGL and 3000 is not a VFR altitude (as it relates to cruising altitudes per the reg). But I did miss the part where you said you said you were 2200 AGL - so my apologies for missing that.
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You're still wrong.
 
cowtowner said:
So I'm headed north east from Texas to Illinois last Friday and it was a great day to fly. I'm on FF cruising along at 3,000ft above Oklahoma because it was early, so it was smooth, and I had a 6 knot tailwind.

Foreflight was predicting no tailwind at 3,500 and a headwind at 5,500

When handed off to a new sector, the controller comes on and asks if "Are you going to fly at a VFR altitude?"

I respond "Affirmative, I'm at a VFR altitude"

He responds, "Actually you aren't"

I responded "Actually I am, but I will climb to 3,500"

Airport below me is at 812ft, putting me 2,188 ft above the earth....according to 91.159 I'm at a VFR altitude.

I had a couple of choices with this guy, climb to 3,500 and check to see if I still had my tailwind, or just cancel FF and continue on my way.

I climbed to 3,500, lost about half my tailwind but remained there and stewed for the 40 minutes to I got handed off to Razorback approach who didn't care what altitude I was at as long as I "remained VFR"

If the guy had issues with radar coverage at that altitude, he should have told me that like they do in certain sectors I fly a lot.

What say the peanut gallery?
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He said "Actually, you aren't." You volunteered to climb. I'd a said I'm below 3000 AGL, any altitude is legal, I'm staying here. "...just cancel FF and continue on my way..." is not a choice you had to consider. Now he may have terminated you. If so, I would have asked for a number to call to talk about it some more. If he refused, there are ways to get ATC Facility phone numbers. Who were you with? An Approach or a Center?
 
1000RR said:
No need to brush up... Nothing I said was incorrect... at least I thought I said VFR altitudes are in MSL not AGL and 3000 is not a VFR altitude (as it relates to cruising altitudes per the reg). But I did miss the part where you said you said you were 2200 AGL - so my apologies for missing that.
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3000 is a VFR altitude unless the ground under you is below sea level. So is 2999, 2998, 2997 ad infinitum
 
1000RR said:
No need to brush up... Nothing I said was incorrect... at least I thought I said VFR altitudes are in MSL not AGL and 3000 is not a VFR altitude (as it relates to cruising altitudes per the reg). But I did miss the part where you said you said you were 2200 AGL - so my apologies for missing that.
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The only place 3,000 feet would NOT be a VFR cruising altitude would be Death Valley where they are below sea level.
 
luvflyin said:
He said "Actually, you aren't." You volunteered to climb. I'd a said I'm below 3000 AGL, any altitude is legal, I'm staying here. "...just cancel FF and continue on my way..." is not a choice you had to consider. Now he may have terminated you. If so, I would have asked for a number to call to talk about it some more. If he refused, there are ways to get ATC Facility phone numbers. Who were you with? An Approach or a Center?
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Ft Worth Center

My wife said I should have told him that I had a number for him to copy...
 
dmspilot said:
You're still wrong.
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Can you clarify? Specifically which part of the following is wrong? --> "at least I thought I said VFR altitudes are in MSL not AGL and 3000 is not a VFR altitude (as it relates to cruising altitudes per the reg)"

If you're talking about the fact that he was at 2200' AGL, yes I missed that. And in that case 91.159 doesn't apply.
 
luvflyin said:
3000 is a VFR altitude unless the ground under you is below sea level. So is 2999, 2998, 2997 ad infinitum
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I wasn't clear I guess. I was specifically talking about 91.159 about the requirements when above 3000 AGL and flying Eastbound vs Westbound.
 
1000RR said:
Can you clarify? Specifically which part of the following is wrong? --> "at least I thought I said VFR altitudes are in MSL not AGL and 3000 is not a VFR altitude (as it relates to cruising altitudes per the reg)"
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You wrote "3000 MSL is not a VFR altitude."
You then wrote "VFR altitudes are in MSL not AGL and 3000 is not a VFR altitude"

3,000' MSL is a legal VFR altitude anywhere that the surface elevation is equal to or greater than sea level, which is the vast majority (probably >99%) of the country.
 
cowtowner said:
The only place 3,000 feet would NOT be a VFR cruising altitude would be Death Valley where they are below sea level.
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Sorry... I was not clearer in my response. That's not what I was meaning but can understand how it was interpreted the way it was.
 
1000RR said:
Sorry... I was not clearer in my response. That's not what I was meaning but can understand how it was interpreted the way it was.
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Your response was perfectly clear. As in clearly wrong.
 
I was taught @ or below 3000 ft was a vfr altitude.
 
cowtowner said:
Ft Worth Center

My wife said I should have told him that I had a number for him to copy...
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817-858-7500. Tell them you had a problem with a Controller and would like to talk to someone about it. Have date and time. And location, they may be able to get you directly to the Area Supervisors desk.
 
dmspilot said:
You wrote "3000 MSL is not a VFR altitude."
You then wrote "VFR altitudes are in MSL not AGL and 3000 is not a VFR altitude"

3,000' MSL is a legal VFR altitude anywhere that the surface elevation is equal to or greater than sea level, which is the vast majority (probably >99%) of the country.
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My lord... you're arguing a point I was NOT intending to be interpreted the way it was. I should have expanded and SPECIFICALLY called out the portion of 91.159 I was referring to. Sorry I left that out. I'll try harder next time in my completeness. The way you interpreted it - YES IT WAS INCOMPLETE AND HENCE WRONG FOR HOW IT WAS WRITTEN. Please accept my sincere apology

We are in complete agreement in what you said above. YOU ARE RIGHT :confused:
 
dmspilot said:
What other way can it be interpreted?
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Simple... the way I intended (my typing just didn't correlate to my intentions). You'll need to go back on re-read post #21 carefully, it goes into more detail as to my deficiency in how I responded.

Another pat on your back - you're right bud... you are right. And by saying so - I was wrong... sooooo soooo wrong. My apologies to the rest of the folks here for the interruption to your normally scheduled program. Please carry on.
 
The was the dialog is presented here, it doesn't really seem to me that you had to cancel or that you had to climb.
When he said "you aren't", just reply neutrally "I'm below 3,000 AGL." Would likely have been enough of a polite nudge to remind him....Wouldn't need to say anything more. "actually I am" sorta comes off as argumentative to me.... and not necessary.

but regardless....it does not seem like he told you that you had to climb.

If after finding unfavorable winds at 3,500..... couldn't you have just let him know "VFR decent to 3,000"....or 2,900 ft... or whatever....
 
Brad W said:
The was the dialog is presented here, it doesn't really seem to me that you had to cancel or that you had to climb.
When he said "you aren't", just reply neutrally "I'm below 3,000 AGL." Would likely have been enough of a polite nudge to remind him....Wouldn't need to say anything more. "actually I am" sorta comes off as argumentative to me.... and not necessary.

but regardless....it does not seem like he told you that you had to climb.

If after finding unfavorable winds at 3,500..... couldn't you have just let him know "VFR decent to 3,000"....or 2,900 ft... or whatever....
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Well, yes, it was argumentative. It ticked me off. I didn't want to argue on the radio with him so I complied and went up to 3,500. His tone told me that if I didn't climb, he'd tell me to squawk VFR. I fly with flight following on anything longer than 40-50 miles. It's a commitment I made to my wife. I wasn't going to have to explain to her why I cancelled. That's a number I don't want to have to call.

I fly this route often and knew I wasn't going to be with him long. So, I was a squish and complied. It really wasn't that big of a deal in the end.....but I know if I ever get those instructions again, the guy is in for a fight.
 
luvflyin said:
817-858-7500. Tell them you had a problem with a Controller and would like to talk to someone about it. Have date and time. And location, they may be able to get you directly to the Area Supervisors desk.
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I know a couple of ZFW controllers....I'm not going to get a guy called in over it. More venting than anything. I even looked up the FAR number and had a "speech" planned when he handed me off. I wussed out and just didn't thank him as I usually do at handoff.
 
What's a "VFR altitude" anyway? I'd say technically 3000 isn't a VFR altitude.

Assuming the AGL altitudes mentioned in the OP, It's a totally legit altitude to fly VFR at, but it's neither an IFR nor a VFR altitude.

3500 would be a "VFR altitude" because it's assigned to VFR traffic.

Just like 3700 is a legit altitude if you're VFR and climbing to 8,000, but it's not a "VFR altitude".

JMO
 
cowtowner said:
When handed off to a new sector, the controller comes on and asks if "Are you going to fly at a VFR altitude?"

I respond "Affirmative, I'm at a VFR altitude"

He responds, "Actually you aren't"

I responded "Actually I am, but I will climb to 3,500"
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What if you'd said "I'd like to remain VFR at or below 3,000 and continue Flight Following" and saw what happened? It's what you were wanting, was legal, pretty much avoids getting into a semantics argument about VFR cruising altitude, and may have actually nudged him into remembering the below-3,000 part. Just a thought...

Not sure exactly where you were but in that general area I know radar coverage (and radio coverage) can be spotty and he may not have thought he could provide reliable service below 3,500 without actually saying so. If true, and if you'd said you'd like to stay at/below 3,000, that explanation may have come up. Not sure.
 
cowtowner said:
So, I was a squish and complied. It really wasn't that big of a deal in the end.....but I know if I ever get those instructions again, the guy is in for a fight.
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Not sure why you want to tie this conflict to your self esteem. Reading too many Wyatt Earp articles? ;)
 
I get your point, and don't disagree, but from the controller's POV, 3,000 MSL is also an IFR altitude, so I can see why the controller would prefer you to not be at 3,000.

FWIW, I had a brain fart one day and flew ABI-CHK at 8,500, and FW Center never said a word.
 
cowtowner said:
I know a couple of ZFW controllers....I'm not going to get a guy called in over it. More venting than anything. I even looked up the FAR number and had a "speech" planned when he handed me off. I wussed out and just didn't thank him as I usually do at handoff.
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It wouldn’t be about ‘calling him out.’ It would be about getting him educated so as not to do it again to someone else. It wouldn’t be a big thing. No pay docked or anything like that
 
I've had a controller ask me to climb from 3,000 to 3,500. I just said "ok". I really didn't think twice about it. I mostly don't worry about winds aloft unless I am going on a long cross country. I think you are working yourself up over nothing.
 
So the practical end-result is that with atc pushing you to 3500', he took you from a low-conflict altitude to one with potentially more traffic
(most vfr a/c are going to blindly choose 3500' vs nearby altitudes, and atc is directing everyone to the same altitude apparently.)
 
OP, there are a couple of problems I have with your post.

First:

cowtowner said:
So I'm headed north east from Texas to Illinois last Friday and it was a great day to fly. I'm on FF cruising along at 3,000ft above Oklahoma because it was early, so it was smooth
Click to expand...

No way. You were at 3000 MSL (so, somewhere around 1800-2200 AGL probably), in Oklahoma, and it was smooth? Nope, don't believe it, and I live here. That kind of weather is mythical, like unicorns and world peace. AND you had a tailwind? That's way too much to actually believe.

You must have caught the one day out of the year...

Otherwise, you are exactly correct. 3000 is a perfectly legit VFR altitude. But so few people fly at those altitudes (at least the ones that commonly get radar service) that ATC forgets sometimes. Even highly experienced pilots forget that clause a LOT because typically they're flying fast and higher and forget all that low and slow stuff. Now, go talk to the Cub owners and they'll likely remember that rule very well.

Also, from the controller's perspective, 3000 feet is an extremely common altitude to use for IFR flights in Oklahoma, because it's the FAF altitude, or glideslope intercept altitude, for a whole ton of approaches around here. So the controller probably does think of it as an "IFR altitude" because he may be clearing IFR aircraft to that altitude all day long. Doesn't mean he wasn't wrong, just that you can see how his brain may have been working.
 
RussR said:
OP, there are a couple of problems I have with your post.

First:



No way. You were at 3000 MSL (so, somewhere around 1800-2200 AGL probably), in Oklahoma, and it was smooth? Nope, don't believe it, and I live here. That kind of weather is mythical, like unicorns and world peace. AND you had a tailwind? That's way too much to actually believe.

You must have caught the one day out of the year...
.
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So you understand why I wanted to stay where I was. I go out of DFW under the Bravo at 3000 and usually I'm begging to climb. This time it was....wow. I'm gonna stay here for a while.
 
PaulS said:
I've had a controller ask me to climb from 3,000 to 3,500. I just said "ok". I really didn't think twice about it. I mostly don't worry about winds aloft unless I am going on a long cross country. I think you are working yourself up over nothing.
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700 nm not a long enough cross country in a Cherokee for ya?
 
luvflyin said:
It wouldn’t be about ‘calling him out.’ It would be about getting him educated so as not to do it again to someone else. It wouldn’t be a big thing. No pay docked or anything like that
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I'll call tomorrow. Have the coordinates and time where I made the climb from Foreflight and flight aware.
 
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