X3 Skier
En-Route
That's why I keep the plane I have until the plane I'm building is thru flight test
. Probably only works when you're retired
.
Vans Files For Chapter 11 Bankruptcy
- Thread starter MarkH
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. Probably only works when you're retired.
Datadriver
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Datadriver
in my case it was 5000Of course, building a plane seems to be its own category of BS, so I'm still hesitant to commit to 2 or 3000 hours of frustration and my own ineptitude. But maybe it'd be fun?We have a new EAA chapter at my airport, so seems there is a lot of support or commiserating available.
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Ari
My non-quickbuild RV-14 took 1100 of my hours plus 300 of my A&P friend/mentor/helper’s hours. That doesn’t count time studying, planning, and so on. By the calendar, it took 38 months from inventorying the first kit to logging the first flight. It was the most personally rewarding project I’ve ever done and the plane is awesome.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
That's in line with what I was thinking. More time spent planning and setting up then actually building feels right for me, although I've never built.
Grum.Man
En-Route
My plane took 10 years and 7000 hours of labor. The best advice I've ever heard, if you are building it to fly it you are doing it for the wrong reasons. I still plan to build something of my own some day. It will be plans built so I am not reliant upon the survival of a company and so that I can invest less money in exchange for more of my time. This creation of yours will be around for 30+ years, travel to all sorts of places, be photographed, owned, shared, and talked about. I can't think of many other accomplishments in life that will leave such a legacy and provide so many hours of stories.
Notatestpilot
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This may not turn out well for the folks that are waiting for (already paid) kits/parts etc. There's a lot of risk since its not guaranteed when the factory can deliver. If a large portion of customers waiting for their paid for orders do not accept the new pricing, the factory may not recover. No one would do this for a car, would they? I certainly would not...
I've read in the VAF forum, some customer will need to pay another $39K for his RV14 - that is insane! I'm guessing most customers are middle to upper middle class with some excess cash to spend on this hobby. I'd agree most folks will be priced out. Its so sad, for this to happen for the most prolific kit airplane in GA history.
I'll say this, couldn't the wasteful millions the feds spent be some how allocated here to Vans? I know its wishful thinking, since no politician will help here though.
I've read in the VAF forum, some customer will need to pay another $39K for his RV14 - that is insane! I'm guessing most customers are middle to upper middle class with some excess cash to spend on this hobby. I'd agree most folks will be priced out. Its so sad, for this to happen for the most prolific kit airplane in GA history.
I'll say this, couldn't the wasteful millions the feds spent be some how allocated here to Vans? I know its wishful thinking, since no politician will help here though.
unsafervguy
En-Route
i beg to differ, a carbon cub kit is 93k and they have no trouble selling kits. the fact of the matter is that vans kits were under priced all along. yes, this lead to them being the largest kit supplier in the world, but when the order book got over a year, that opened them up to being hit hard by inflation and it bit them bad. the truth is they should have raised prices in 2020 to slow down orders when the wait hit a year. yes it sucks that people are going to have to pay more for something that they have paid for but not gotten. but the option is chapter 7 and a total loss of that money.
MarkH
Line Up and Wait
Long term, I don't think the prices will prove unreasonable for the industry, but for those who have already planned and committed the funds, it will be difficult.
$39K is a lot of money for many people to spend on a hobby. $39K unplanned expense on top of the cost already spent/budgeted may be impossible for many who saved for years to build their dream plane. Most people in aviation have an above average income, but that doesn't change the fact that the price increase alone is more than half the average annual household income for American households.
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
I can’t say how relieved I am that I’m not one of the creditors. I felt uneasy about Vans when ordering my fuse and they couldn’t give me any useful information on when they could deliver even 9 months later. I knew something was very wrong with that. But, I kept plowing forward. I was disappointed when I had to sell the kit, but now I’m very happy about it. I still thought I’d build a vans one day, but that day will not come until things change drastically with how the company operates.
schmookeeg
En-Route
Regardless of whether 39k is couch change for these creditors or not -- 70% of them need to not be ****ed off at the bait-and-switchness of it all. I'd probably be cutting my nose off to spite Vans and canceling my order or searching for other remedies.
Skyrys62
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Meet the Fokkers
I think I see more Van's RV planes and kits for sale right now than I have in quite a while. Didn't keep track or count, but they were fairly scarce for quite some time.
Amen, Brother! Write your Congress-critter.
Forgive me quoting myself:
kyleb
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Drake the Outlaw
The finished aircraft inventory increase probably has little or nothing to do with the bankruptcy. Toy inventory of all types (beach houses, airplanes, boats, fancy cars) moved faster when the world was rife with COVID bailout money. That wave crested a while back and things are moving slower today...
Kits? If you were on the fence, this kind of thing would push you over. Let's say you got in and didn't find building to be something fun/educational. All you needed was a face saving excuse to get out so you didn't have to tell your peer group that patience, working with your hands, or reading plans wasn't your cup of tea.
Like a lot of things from 2020 thru late 2021, the spike was a perturbation with a long tail returning back to normalcy.
I’m keeping my eyes open for an unstarted RV-10 kit.
Lndwarrior
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Gary
I agree. Van's will survive this. I think many people on this forum don't have an understanding of Van's position in the market place. They simply have no competition with the reputation and the established following. Regardless of the current misstep with the lazer cut parts and financial issues. They have the unqualified best high performance homebuilt in the world. Those with $150k to spend aren't going anywhere else.
So they are $10m in debt. Sales last year were $50m. There is nothing insurmountable here, especially with the following they have.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Your canceling an order that Van's would lose money fulfilling isn't going to hurt anyone's feelings. Neither would you selling your partial kit.
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schmookeeg
En-Route
Except their emergence from Chapter 11 seems predicated on people doing exactly that?
I saw a complete unstarted qb on barnstormers last week. No price given but don't see it any longer.
They’re moving right now, but it’s still a feeding frenzy.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Predicated on people cancelling orders? Yes, I'm sure they're counting on it. That's part of the point of chapter 11. Voiding unprofitable contracts. If they can be restructured into profitable contracts, that's great. But just getting rid of them is the next best thing.
Then those people that cancelled go and sell their half built kit to someone willing to pay the price increase for the next kit.
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Received my 10 empennage kit in august. I have made it as far as taking the top of crate off and now considering if I really have time for it. Second kid on way, business has been getting busier. Not sure what I want to do just yet but need to decide soon. I do believe that this kit was after they discovered the laser cut parts
Issue as it was delayed and I actually just received the back ordered parts a month ago.
If I decide to sell it I’ll post it.
I've often wondered how many more empennage kits have been sold for the various models vs say finishing kits. I'm sure Van's knows how many kits are "in progress". It would be interesting to know how many have been abandoned, or maybe "in limbo". I think each empennage kit is assigned a builder number? I'd like to know how many of those just go cold.
I wonder if "kits in progress" are assigned any value on their balance sheet. I'm guessing not, but they are a fairly real source of future income. Maybe somebody should ask the Mooney accountants about future parts value
I wonder if "kits in progress" are assigned any value on their balance sheet. I'm guessing not, but they are a fairly real source of future income. Maybe somebody should ask the Mooney accountants about future parts value
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
I remember reading a stat somewhere that said way less than half the empennage kits sold ever fly.I've often wondered how many more empennage kits have been sold for the various models vs say finishing kits. I'm sure Van's knows how many kits are "in progress". It would be interesting to know how many have been abandoned, or maybe "in limbo". I think each empennage kit is assigned a builder number? I'd like to know how many of those just go cold.
I wonder if "kits in progress" are assigned any value on their balance sheet. I'm guessing not, but they are a fairly real source of future income. Maybe somebody should ask the Mooney accountants about future parts value
I wonder if those "kits in progress" would get a phone call from vans to buy and then resell...or encourage the owner to sell or get off the pot.I've often wondered how many more empennage kits have been sold for the various models vs say finishing kits. I'm sure Van's knows how many kits are "in progress". It would be interesting to know how many have been abandoned, or maybe "in limbo". I think each empennage kit is assigned a builder number? I'd like to know how many of those just go cold.
I wonder if "kits in progress" are assigned any value on their balance sheet. I'm guessing not, but they are a fairly real source of future income. Maybe somebody should ask the Mooney accountants about future parts value
Salty
Touchdown! Greaser!
Even though I sold my kit, I got a legal notice about the chapter 11 with some paltry information about options. It was far from useful IMO.
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Ari
My best guess as to why they put people like you on the "mailing matrix" is because, having purchased a kit, you could have a claim for breach of contract, negligence, or product liability that arose before the Chapter 11 filing date but has not been brought to court yet. Those claims would be extinguished by the bankruptcy protection. So could claims that have not even accrued yet. I do know that there are exceptions, including voluntary exceptions that a company might use for strategic or political reasons. (E.g., the market for used cars you manufactured before filing bankruptcy is better if you honor unexpired warranties and product liability claims that you could have killed off.)
The point is that Van's might not be able to extinguish a claim that they should have known about if they didn't put the claimant on notice of the bankruptcy filing and give him an opportunity to file a proof of claim. At a minimum, they should be sending notices out to anyone who bought a kit within the past 4 years because that's the usual statute of limitations for a contract for the sale of goods. If I were them, I'd do a survey of statutes of limitations everywhere in the country and go with the longest one and/or just guess it won't be more than 12 years, which is double the longest I can think of. Stamps are cheap, not giving notice to a claimant is expensive.
Was more thinking vans would call up these "kits in progress" that havent seen them buy the next kit. Try to convince them to continue building or sell the kit to someone waiting on a kit. Which could potentially clear up some backlog
unsafervguy
En-Route
i ordered my kit over 20 years ago and probably not even orders any parts for 4 years and still got the letter. they are covering all the based legally.
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Mantis Toboggan, MD
Got my cert in 2003 with a lot of parts ordered toward the end and since, including a new motor (with deposit) in 2021.
ETA: Spoke to soon. My letter was in the mailbox today (and presumably last night).
Nauga,
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Datadriver
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Datadriver
They go to everyone who has ever ordered anything (part/kit etc). I built a Velocity but ordered a manifold thingie and also got the letter
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pfarber
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pfarber
sales is not profit. I worked at a Fortune 50 and with $50bn in sales our profit was less than 3% of sales Vans needs way more than $10mm to emerge from bankruptcy healthy.
hindsight2020
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hindsight2020
...except the high re-order take could be illustrative of a hobson's choice, not necessarily evidence of bona fide support. The alternative was lose the whole nut in a chap 11 gamble, as a bottom of the barrel creditor. Old man Van was always gonna get his secured bonds repaid as first biter on the apple, everybody else was taking a bath. Third party re-sales of partial or finished kits is in the toilet currently, by the kool-aid drinkers' own admission. That isn't likely to change when this always-intended-to-shed, forced-buy inventory hits the barns that storm in the summer, when the layoffs really start stacking up and the credit limits don't get re-upped.
I'm not a builder, so my interest in vans is only peripheral as a passive low-end -6A (or equivalent fixed trike acro) buyer. From where I sit this all looks like a rah rah pump job before the March announcement, where Via tells some of the red cup holders they're getting Glasaired.
the good news is, it's unlikely chap 7 will be on the table. That always struck me as alarmist overshoot.
I'm not a builder, so my interest in vans is only peripheral as a passive low-end -6A (or equivalent fixed trike acro) buyer. From where I sit this all looks like a rah rah pump job before the March announcement, where Via tells some of the red cup holders they're getting Glasaired.
the good news is, it's unlikely chap 7 will be on the table. That always struck me as alarmist overshoot.
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Which is why I said "especially on engines". I understand people with kits being stuck. But a 93% reorder rate for engines when there's other available options is impressive.
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