Using Paper

spiderweb

spiderweb

Final Approach
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Feb 22, 2005
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Display name:
Ben
I got my IR in an airplane with two NAV/COMMs and an ADF. Now I'm mostly flying glass.

I have found that I don't refer so much to paper enroute (though I have it), but I always use approach plates and plates for SIDs and STARs. I've been talking to some people born and raised on glass, and they usually just use the glass.

I like my plates, thank you very much. Less knob turning or softkey punching while executing an approach.

Guess I'm showing my "age"-- or at least the age of my IR ticket!
 
spiderweb said:
I got my IR in an airplane with two NAV/COMMs and an ADF. Now I'm mostly flying glass.

I have found that I don't refer so much to paper enroute (though I have it), but I always use approach plates and plates for SIDs and STARs. I've been talking to some people born and raised on glass, and they usually just use the glass.

I like my plates, thank you very much. Less knob turning or softkey punching while executing an approach.

Guess I'm showing my "age"-- or at least the age of my IR ticket!
Click to expand...

That was a lesson I learned in Bob Geraces 310 with the 430/530/MX-20 combo and had to suddenly file IFR over Lake Arrohead on a 210kt descent into SoCal heading for LGB where the LGB cloud had just formed over the airport. I was issued a Victor airway clearance with multiple intersections to input and I didn't have paper, I just couldn't get the plan in fast enough especially having to reference the MX-20 to find all the waypoints. I just had to fess up "Sorry, I have no IFRLA chart and there is no way I can program that in time, I can cross the Valley IFR and pick up a clearance offshore or you can give me vectors." They gave me vectors. It takes a hell of a lot less time to unfold a chart than program a box.
 
I prefer paper too, but then again I am not a youngster either! I don't like fighting with computers when I am in a hurry.
 
I can certainly appreciate all the grass stuff but paper is so much more reliable.
 
somorris said:
I prefer paper too, but then again I am not a youngster either! I don't like fighting with computers when I am in a hurry.
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I've found myself fighting too much lately. I have ForeFlight and Jepps TC on one iPad and just Jepp FD and TC on the other. I end up giving the one w/out ForeFlight to my FO if he doesn't have an iPad.

So, the switching between Jepp and FF. it's driving me nuts. I like approach plates in Jepp but I like the moving map in FF. Also, FF has GPS overlay on the plates. I find I don't care about approach plate as I can't read NOS charts anyway. But the airport diagram is tops for situational awareness.

I have a jail broken iPad so O can use activator. I simply swipe the status bar (the bar at the top with the time and date and battery charge status) left to right for FF and right to left for Jepp. Makes it super fast and it's still too slow in the cockpit.

I need the data I want when I want it and I don't want to wait more that 1/2 of one second to get it. Maybe if Jepp would just allow a GPS icon to be displayed...oh wait, their charts blow. I really want FF's section chart with my own ship icon. Anything short of that is a deal breaker.
 
I don't mind the gadgets but I see a wicked difference in speed with FF on iPad 3 vs iPad 1.

What I'm not enamored with is touch screens in turbulence. That slows everything to a crawl.
 
Captain said:
I've found myself fighting too much lately. I have ForeFlight and Jepps TC on one iPad and just Jepp FD and TC on the other. I end up giving the one w/out ForeFlight to my FO if he doesn't have an iPad.

So, the switching between Jepp and FF. it's driving me nuts. I like approach plates in Jepp but I like the moving map in FF. Also, FF has GPS overlay on the plates. I find I don't care about approach plate as I can't read NOS charts anyway. But the airport diagram is tops for situational awareness.

I have a jail broken iPad so O can use activator. I simply swipe the status bar (the bar at the top with the time and date and battery charge status) left to right for FF and right to left for Jepp. Makes it super fast and it's still too slow in the cockpit.

I need the data I want when I want it and I don't want to wait more that 1/2 of one second to get it. Maybe if Jepp would just allow a GPS icon to be displayed...oh wait, their charts blow. I really want FF's section chart with my own ship icon. Anything short of that is a deal breaker.
Click to expand...

Why do you need to be jail broke in order to swipe between apps? I just use a 4 finger swipe on the main screen and it moves between the programs open in the double button tap bar at the bottom.
 
When you say "glass" are you including an iPad? Or do you consider the iPad "paper" or something else completely?

At this point, whether I'm flying glass - which I am defining as an on-board, installed, certified flat panel PFD/MFD system with incorporated approach plates - or not, my iPad has replaced paper charts completely. I don't find pressing the screen three times to change approach charts at the same airport any more difficult or time-consuming (probably less) on my iPad than it was using paper.

It guess somorris would say I'm a youngster :D :yesnod:
 
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Before I got foreflight I had ChartView in the MX20 and paper enroutes. I also had a lap top with JeppView if I really had to (more used at preflight). For many flights early on, I'd print the destination plates (and I always had the home airport plates kicking around).
After a while, I didn't bother with the paper backup.

Now with ForeFlight in both the IPAD and the iPHONE in addition, I don't worry too much.
Chances are more likely that I'll misfile a JEPP or not make it to the chart supplier on time to get a sectional or IFR LO for trips.

I have the JEPP app on the IPAD but it largely sucks. The only time I really use it is when I want to look at a JEPP plate on the ground or in the case of Taxiing at a big airport like IAD where the JEPP ground diagrams are a little nicer.
 
Interesting. I wasn't thinking so much about iPads. Rather, I was talking about installed and certified. My beef with using glass, especially on approach, is that I have to reach over and do some button pushing and knob dialing when I could have the plate right here on my knee, where it belongs!

Also, if I bring up the approach plate on the MFD, I now do not have the basemap with weather and traffic.

I don't have an iPad, but now I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea.
 
spiderweb said:
Interesting. I wasn't thinking so much about iPads. Rather, I was talking about installed and certified. My beef with using glass, especially on approach, is that I have to reach over and do some button pushing and knob dialing when I could have the plate right here on my knee, where it belongs!

Also, if I bring up the approach plate on the MFD, I now do not have the basemap with weather and traffic.

I don't have an iPad, but now I'm thinking it might not be a bad idea.
Click to expand...

With the 430 and 2 screens on the G500 I find it pretty easy to have myself all preset and ready to go. I'm looking forward to playing with HITS some further.
 
Henning said:
With the 430 and 2 screens on the G500 I find it pretty easy to have myself all preset and ready to go. I'm looking forward to playing with HITS some further.
Click to expand...

I don't like HITS and I suspect you won't either. You'll feel like a dog jumping through hoops.

Synthetic vision is kinda cool, but also a bit distracting.

Everything else is amazing. Here's how I explained it to the wife: "Now when we fly, I have weather displayed and traffic with aural call-outs." She said something to the effect of, "I thought only airliners had that!"
 
spiderweb said:
Interesting. I wasn't thinking so much about iPads. Rather, I was talking about installed and certified. My beef with using glass, especially on approach, is that I have to reach over and do some button pushing and knob dialing when I could have the plate right here on my knee, where it belongs!
Click to expand...
It took me a while to adapt to that too. It was so much easier just to look at the approach plate on the yoke clip. I finally got with the program, though. I am also talking about installed charts, not an iPad. We still don't have them. I doubt it will be anytime soon.
 
spiderweb said:
I don't like HITS and I suspect you won't either. You'll feel like a dog jumping through hoops.
Click to expand...
The first thing I did the first time I flew with a G1000 with synthetic was turn off HITS. Even used to turn it off in desktop simulation software.
 
Depends on the glass you've got. The Cirrus Perspective system has in it everything you need, including everything the paper has. The Garmin 430 database lacks a lot of important data (most notably procedure altitudes). When flying the Perspective, my charts (paper or iPad) usually stay stored. With the 430, I've got the charts out most of the time during the terminal and approach phases, although not so much during enroute. So, it's all situations.
 
Ron Levy said:
Depends on the glass you've got. The Cirrus Perspective system has in it everything you need, including everything the paper has. The Garmin 430 database lacks a lot of important data (most notably procedure altitudes). When flying the Perspective, my charts (paper or iPad) usually stay stored. With the 430, I've got the charts out most of the time during the terminal and approach phases, although not so much during enroute. So, it's all situations.
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ditto. When flying perspective, ipad stays stashed and has the only purpose of backup. I only use it at fbos as a flight plan filer.
 
I don't have any experience with a truly glass cockpit, so my response is geared for Foreflight on an iPAD. I love it for enroute, and it is OK for approach charts. I do tend to print out current plates for my intended stops, though. I also find that, at 52, my short term memory is not that keen. Thus, I have trouble with STARs, which are typically on two pages and must be toggled between. I also do not like the way that FF does not save the page on the ODP's--it reverts back to the first page in that section when that "plate" is closed. So, I tend to write out ODP's somewhere, like on a printed airport diagram.

So, count me in the IPAD group that also carries paper--outdated approach books and L-charts, and printed-out current approach plates.

Wells
 
I don't even bother taking any paper charts with me anymore. Really. I used to keep copies of expired plates/sectionals/LEs with me, but I just found that I never ever used them. Not taking them with me kept me from having to carry around a big ass flight bag.

I *might* print out a paper copy of the approach plates if it's looking like it's going to be hard IFR, but I wouldn't ever grab them unless my iPad failed. Even then I have my iPhone as a backup.
 
Captain said:
I've found myself fighting too much lately. I have ForeFlight and Jepps TC on one iPad and just Jepp FD and TC on the other. I end up giving the one w/out ForeFlight to my FO if he doesn't have an iPad.

So, the switching between Jepp and FF. it's driving me nuts. I like approach plates in Jepp but I like the moving map in FF. Also, FF has GPS overlay on the plates. I find I don't care about approach plate as I can't read NOS charts anyway. But the airport diagram is tops for situational awareness.

I have a jail broken iPad so O can use activator. I simply swipe the status bar (the bar at the top with the time and date and battery charge status) left to right for FF and right to left for Jepp. Makes it super fast and it's still too slow in the cockpit.

I need the data I want when I want it and I don't want to wait more that 1/2 of one second to get it. Maybe if Jepp would just allow a GPS icon to be displayed...oh wait, their charts blow. I really want FF's section chart with my own ship icon. Anything short of that is a deal breaker.
Click to expand...


As Henning has already said. You don't need to jailbreak to do this. Plus it's even easier with the native gesture as you don't have to aim for the top bar. You just need to activate four finger gestures in the settings.

 
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Ron Levy said:
Depends on the glass you've got. The Cirrus Perspective system has in it everything you need, including everything the paper has. The Garmin 430 database lacks a lot of important data (most notably procedure altitudes). When flying the Perspective, my charts (paper or iPad) usually stay stored. With the 430, I've got the charts out most of the time during the terminal and approach phases, although not so much during enroute. So, it's all situations.
Click to expand...

The key reason I keep my Jepp subscription up to date. Well, that and the fact that only 1 of the 4 planes in the club has a 430W, so paper is an absolute necessity in the other three. :D

Call me old fashioned (my kids do, so welcome to the club) but paper offers some significant advantages over electronics. Batteries don't die, displays don't quit at inopportune times and they can be read in bright sunlight. I will happily use the 430W when flying that plane, but paper is a great backup.
 
I maintained my own Jepp subscription for many years, and I do prefer paper. However, I've maintained as many as five full international sets at the same time, and it's a royal pain, especially doing the annual checklists.

We used to have a requirement to dig out all the appropriate books prior to the flight, and also to print a full set of all the departure field, destination, and alternate(s) for every leg. Sometimes that amounts to a LOT of charts.

I'd used EFB's before, but when we got them, I wasn't looking forward to them at all. Formerly, the EFB's I'd had at other operators were unreliable, and I've had two go bad at the wrong time, such as flying into Miami.

For a while, we maintained that all flights had to have printed pages to back up the EFB's, and we went through a fairly exacting observation time with the FAA. In the end, we kept the enroute charts, but the paper terminal charts are no longer on board. The EFB's are mounted to the side of the pilot, hard-mounted to the airplane, but can be removed during a briefing to share with the other crew. The charts can be sent to a printer or another EFB, as well.

I found it awkward to have the chart to one side while trying to fly an approach, but the company standard became a requirement not to use the chart during the approach. Know what one needs to know, and have the other pilot monitoring the approach. The route data should already be on the FMS and on the display, so noting the next step-down altitude, distance to next fix, and so forth, became a matter of focusing more on the instruments and less on the chart. The flight engineer and pilot not flying would do that.

After a while, it became second nature.

I do like the ability to scroll through the procedures without needing to unclip something from a yoke mount; to transition from the arrival to the approach is one touch of the screen. Another touch to go to the airport diagram after landing, and so on. With the alternates pre-loaded, a diversion becomes very simple. The only paperwork to be handled is the flight plan/flight release, and the paper enroute charts, which are still marked up with pen and ink, and a yellow or orange highlighter.

I do like having the paper enroute for two main reasons: it allows looking farther downrange and marking the chart for references, or highlighting frequencies at FIR boundaries. It also makes a handy sunshade.
 
Ron Levy said:
Depends on the glass you've got. The Cirrus Perspective system has in it everything you need, including everything the paper has. The Garmin 430 database lacks a lot of important data (most notably procedure altitudes). When flying the Perspective, my charts (paper or iPad) usually stay stored. With the 430, I've got the charts out most of the time during the terminal and approach phases, although not so much during enroute. So, it's all situations.
Click to expand...

Considering Perspective is a Cirrus exclusive, is the required data all available on G1000 or other newer Garmin units? Avidyne?
 
I love the electronics, but I keep going back to paper. Depending on exactly what you're doing, either one might be easier. Finding random VORs you've never heard of before is unhappiness on either. Finding random intersections is easier on glass. Getting a good area overview paper wins. Paper approach plates also win (for me anyways). I'm always carrying paper anyways. Certified equipment is pretty solid, but I don't trust the iPad/laptop style at all. I've had too many problems with those devices to trust them with my life.
 
Being that I am a paranoid old guy who learned when plates were hand scribed on papyrus, :D, I too have paper to back the glass. As far as I know there has never been a documented case of power failure making a paper plate or chart inop. (Before any one jumps in, I have a headset mounted light and a spare minimag :yesnod: ) That being said it stays folded except for th charts I use for pre-planning. I also download the approach plate in the 8.5X11 format...great for those of us whose arms are getting shorter!!
 
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