Using friends plane but issue while using plane. Provide some feedback...

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by rowdog_14, Mar 25, 2020.

  1. rowdog_14

    rowdog_14 Filing Flight Plan

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    So looking to get input on this.

    I was using a friends plane for getting some complex time in with a CFI. We agreed on a rate and I have a few hours in the plane. The other day there was an electrical issue and we landed at an airport that we were doing pattern work at, which was about 2.5 hours away in a car.

    The plane would not start, no battery charge and no way to jump the plane off with a GPU. So we could not fly it back to my owners airport. The owner offered to come get us after not agreeing on a few transportation methods. When he got there the plane started up :) lol, but he chose not to fly it back since it was night at that point and he did not feel comfortable flying it at night.

    Long story short he is saying I am still responsible for getting the plane back and incurring the charges for the flight back even if I am not flying the plane or even in the plane.

    He is paying for the ramp charges for the plane sitting for the few days.

    I personally feel it is his responsibility as the owner to get the plane back if there are issues related to the plane and I was not able to fly the plane back at the time I was with the plane, but he feels differently.

    The plane would be back at his home airport if I would have been able to get the plane to start.

    Just want to get outside feedback...

    Thanks
     
  2. DFH65

    DFH65 Pattern Altitude

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    You like flying his plane? Is it a good deal? If so fly it back. If you don't want to ever fly it again argue with the guy about it. I assume you don't have a written agreement.
     
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  3. jd21476

    jd21476 Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I know most clubs, at least those that I have belonged to in the past, it was always the renters responsibility for getting the plane home. If the plane had an issue that forced it to land somewhere other than its home airport it was the owners responsibility to fix the plane but once fixed it was up to the renter to ensure it got back home. I dont know if that is standard language or not.
     
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  4. benyflyguy

    benyflyguy En-Route

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    I guess the “friend” part is a loosely held term. You’ll be able to use the time flying back for time building so it’s not a total loss.
    Has anybody looked at the plane? Hate to drive or fly out and it not start again
     
  5. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner Final Approach

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    Unless it was part of a written agreement, your “friend” can establish any criteria he wants, and you can choose to comply or not, depending upon how important it is to keep this “friend”.
     
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  6. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    You flew it out there, you're responsible for getting it home.
     
  7. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    do you feel that the renter is liable to have the engine overhauled just he was rented while it blew up.
     
  8. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    the owner is responsible for maintenance (FAA)
     
  9. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

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    Getting the airplane back to home base is not maintenance.

    If the airplane failed completely and needed to stay at the base for an extended time for repair - say 3-4 weeks, then I'd exclude it. But overnight, next day it could fly home. Definitely on the pilot.
     
  10. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    I more or less agree. However, the owner went to the airplane and chose to leave it there. Owner in this case is responsible.

    But normally, if a friend is helping me out, I would feel obligated to get it home.
     
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  11. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    You're kidding right? It's a "friend" not a business. You chose to fly it 2.5 hours away, you should fly it back or pay the associated flight costs.
     
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  12. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    This is tough, always good to get something in writing. I was dry leasing a plane for a while and we had an agreement written up, even though it was between good friends. For the most part, the general assumption was that while I was using the plane its safety, condition, and putting it back where, and the way, I found it was my responsibility. Granted, if the engine grenaded itself for some condition I did not directly cause, that's different

    *personally, since you are using his plane, I would say while the maintenance is up to him to fix as the owner, it's up to you as the person who borrowed it and was using it to ensure you put the plane back where you found it, or at least provide the cost to do so. It's the right, honorable, and neighborly thing to do
     
  13. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    PS - just because the friend left it there doesn't negate it.. it's not like he left it there out of principle. He went to check the plane, found it was in working order, but didn't feel comfortable flying it back at night, understandable. This is still on the OP to get the plane home. Frankly, the OP should have offered off the bat "weird, wonder why it's working now.. probably want to get it looked at. I'll come back on a clear VFR day and fly it home"
     
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  14. danhagan

    danhagan Pattern Altitude

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    This is very poorly written ...

    1. What was the "electrical issue"?
    2. How did he start it if a GPU-jump didn't work for you?
    3. When I rented from an official school, they took responsibility for getting out of commission AC ... but if it were fouled plugs or a ham-fisted hot start it was on the renter.
     
  15. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 En-Route

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    Pilot in command means taken responsibility, you chose to fly it 2.5 hours away, it’s on you to get it home.

    And this is one of many reasons I would not let anyone else fly my plane.
     
  16. kgruber

    kgruber En-Route

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    If he considers you a "friend," I discount his sanity.
     
  17. TommyG

    TommyG Cleared for Takeoff

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    This is why I don't let friends or anyone else use my plane.
     
  18. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    "Friends" would have worked it out to each's satisfaction by now.
     
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  19. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Cleared for Takeoff

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    Not enough information about the problem, but it smells like it might be an intermittent contactor since it started for the owner. Would the engine turn over at all when you attempted to start it? Was it a complete electrical failure (avionics, lights, etc.) or just the starter?

    I think I'd have attempted some basic troubleshooting before having the owner drive two and a half hours to pick you up.
     
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  20. asicer

    asicer Final Approach

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    :yeahthat:

    If the word "responsibility" turns up in the discussion then it's time to get the plane home and stop flying it if you want to preserve the friendship.
     
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  21. lsaway

    lsaway Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Like everybody else said, renting from an established business with a written agreement and rules is the best way to avoid situations like this. I think that you were going to fly the plane back anyway, so why not do it now a few days later? Since you are concerned that it might not start when you get out there, ask the owner what the remedy would be and come to an agreement before driving back out.


    Maybe the master power relay or master switch acting up? Sometimes flipping the master switch on and off repeatedly a few times can work to engage the power relay.
     
  22. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    Friends don’t strand friends airplanes away from home base.
     
  23. lowtimer

    lowtimer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I guess there are different levels of friends........ Is this a friend or a "person you know"?

    Are you renting the aircraft or borrowing the aircraft in exchange for paying expenses?

    A friend who lets me borrow his plane is probably pretty high on my list so there would not even be a question in my mind about who's responsibility returning the aircraft is.

    If doable for me and a problem for a friend I'd probably retrieve the aircraft even if I did not strand it.
     
  24. Jamie Kirk

    Jamie Kirk Line Up and Wait

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    If I was the friend and I let a friend use my plane for training and he did this to me I would simply say ok no problem I’ll fly it back.

    But then I’d have 1 less friend.

    You flew a friends plane somewhere, just be a decent person and fly it back.
     
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  25. Lndwarrior

    Lndwarrior Pre-takeoff checklist

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    What he said.
     
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  26. GrummanBear

    GrummanBear Ejection Handle Pulled

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    If you want to borrow from anyone else in the future, remember reputation is worth more than dollars, and travels fast.
     
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  27. Unkljohn

    Unkljohn Pre-Flight

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    I would definitely retrieve my friend’s plane. Especially if I valued his friendship.
     
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  28. rowdog_14

    rowdog_14 Filing Flight Plan

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    Sorry it is an associate not a friend. I used that term a little loosely in this case :)

    Thanks for the feedback guys. All valid points and I fault myself for not establishing true guidelines outside of hourly cost and if damages on my end happen. I am not trying to leave it stranded. I am helping him get back to the plane, I am just concerned that he still wants me to pay him full cost of what I would normally pay flying by myself and I am not even flying it back plus the cost of the plane sitting at the airport.

    I offered to drive him out there and I drive back but he flys the plane back and I still owe him for XXX dollar amount for him flying the plane back because that was cost that I would have paid him.

    I personally feel I should just need to get him back there and he fly it back and we are good...no cost put back on me.

    As far as the issue we still do not know he said he is going to have it looked at when it get back. Hopefully it will start once we get back today.

    The only question I have with some peoples statement is what if the plane had an issue with say something bigger and was at no fault of mine and the plane had to stay at a facility for repairs and such.

    I see it as if I let a friend/associate(riding with a friend :) ) use my vehicle paid or not and he drove it out of town. On the way back he has some issues and is not able to drive it back of not fault of his own. I would ask if there is anyone that can look at it and if not I would see about getting a tow to a repair facility or back to my house. If it went to a repair facility I would not expect him to stay there until the vehicle is repaired or go back and get the vehicle, since it was the inconvenience of my vehicle that left him without transportation. I would make plans to get it myself. Now if it goes into repair and it is found that the fault was caused by him then yeah I would expect him to be responsible for it.

    Just FYI I have already paid him for the time coming back because that is the person I am but just wanted some feedback from others.

    This is a lesson on making sure everyone is on the same page with all possible situation except for edge cases.

    Again thanks
     
  29. murphey

    murphey Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    Local schools around here....would charge you not only a minimum hour per day but also rental on another airplane to ferry a CFI or other pilot to where the airplane is parked in order to fly it home. A rather expensive retrieval.
     
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  30. PaulS

    PaulS Final Approach

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    So you paid him already? That's a good thing, driving him down to get it is a good thing. Paying to store it down there, for me that would be on him, if it was a close friend I might help him out.
     
  31. jaxcessnadriver

    jaxcessnadriver Pre-Flight

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    What would be cheaper the ramp fee's and fuel or your negotiated rate?
     
  32. swingwing

    swingwing Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Wow, so you already dickered with him because you felt he was responsible for your ride home. He already spent five hours of his time picking you up. Do you expect him to drive you back? Did you make him pay for the CFI? I’m sure you got a better deal over an FBO rental whether it was price, a nicer plane or the availability of a complex. Do the right thing and get your friend’s plane home. Why beat him up for your own gain?....Unbelievable
     
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  33. strangebird

    strangebird Pre-takeoff checklist

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    To the un-fair weather friend,

    You used the friends plane for a good $, it would not start and he came and got you and took you back at his expense that lone is a favor, now he wants you to fly it back and pay the flight time rate and you are balking? Get real quit being a cheap arse, you should not only pay him for coming and get you, he could have left you where you landed high and dry, and then you would have had to get a hotel or uber and ate the cost he did you a huge favor.

    You will be flying the plane back so getting use of it and flight time so you should pay him for that, I have a name for guys like you that do not appreciate the help he rendered and the deal he gave you, it is not printable here, and you want to be a CFI do us a favor, don't. your judgement is flawed badly.
     
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  34. UngaWunga

    UngaWunga Cleared for Takeoff

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    Wow. It'd really suck to have a rental plane break down when you're on a trip if they're expecting you to pay to ferry their broken plane back to them. I would have a hard time paying for that, and probably wouldn't sign a rental agreement with that clause in it, especially if the plane broke down through no fault of the renter/pilot.
     
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  35. Salty

    Salty Ejection Handle Pulled PoA Supporter

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    Depends on the rate he was giving IMO. If it's retail rental equivalent, then I'd understand expecting him to step up on an equipment failure. If he's giving you a "friends" rate, then I'd pay.

    The real question for both of you is, relatively speaking, is this enough money for you to strain your relationship over?
     
  36. Tantalum

    Tantalum Final Approach

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    Planes aren't cars.. when you fly an airplane it is your responsibility to bring it back home in the condition you found it.

    What would you do if this was your personal plane? Leave it? You would still be stuck with it

    Just fly it home. so what if you have to pay for it, you still get to log the flight time...??

    I also wouldn't strand someone's car somewhere either.. if I borrowed my friend's car and got a flat tire on the way to work and had to take an Uber the rest of the way I wouldn't just leave his car at the side of the road
     
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  37. chemgeek

    chemgeek Pattern Altitude

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    I'll join the chorus. You fly it away, you are responsible for getting it back or offering to pay for same.

    Was maintenance sought at the away airport to determine or remedy cause? I would want to know that before flying it back. If it's a weak or failing battery, it's a relatively quick fix. If it's the charging system or starter, it could be more involved. All of these issues affect your flight safety and/or emergency reserves. Ignoring the cause of the start failure before the next flight is not optimal.
     
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  38. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking PoA Supporter

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    Show how you'd get it home with out fixing it first?
     
  39. AGLyme

    AGLyme Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I hate borrowing things from anyone. Once in a blue moon I do. And when I borrow a car, for example, I return it filled with gas. I am mentally prepared that if something happened while operating a borrowed vehicle or device, I would fix anything that broke in an accident or otherwise. This culture I think belongs in the category of "do unto others as others do unto you"... a powerful tool for society that circles back if I ever lent out something to someone.
    It sucks when things break, but, oh well...
     
  40. WannFly

    WannFly Final Approach

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    And that is why ladies and gentlemen.... Kate is all mine
     
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