Use of alternating red-green light signal

PeterNSteinmetz

PeterNSteinmetz

Ejection Handle Pulled
Joined
Sep 9, 2015
Messages
2,653
Location
Tempe, AZ
Display Name
PeterNSteinmetz
Home Airfield
KFFZ
I have been memorizing the light gun signals and my wife asked when an alternating red-green for “exercise extreme caution” is actually used.

Has anyone actually ever seen or used this ? And why? What is an example that calls for this?
 
jordane93 said:
I’ve heard the light gun signals are barely visible.
Click to expand...
I flew in to Boeing Field once using light gun signals. It's a bright dot; on a sunny day, the world is full of bright dots. My problem is that I hadn't flown into the airport before, and didn't know where the tower was. When I finally realized its location, I saw a dot of light on the glass.

The light didn't seem to have color, though...that is, I didn't really see it is "green." Just seemed like a white dot.

Ron Wanttaja
 
I’ve only seen light gun signals in training when specifically asking the tower to use them for us. It was at night, so I recall them being quite visible.
 
Go out in the daylight and ask the tower for a test.Doubt you’ll see the colors.
 
jordane93 said:
I’ve heard the light gun signals are barely visible.
Click to expand...
I've had light gun signals both at night and during the day. At night, it's pretty visible, but you have to know where to look or you'll miss it. At night it might be hard to find the tower and if it's off on the passenger side it can be tough to get a visual on it. During the day it's worse, but it can be done - you really do need good eyesight and no color blindness, though.

It's a simple request to the tower for light signals.
 
I’ve heard the light gun signals are barely visible.
I'm an old fart having learned to fly in the mid 50's. I trained at a towered airport in planes without electrical systems. No problem at all with light signals back then.
Of course the guys in the tower knew where to point it, and the guy in the plane knew where to look.
 
Would this be suggesting there are times when I'm not using caution when landing at a controlled field without a radio? (joke)

FAA order 7710.65

3−2−2. WARNING SIGNAL
Direct a general warning signal, alternating red and green, to aircraft or vehicle operators, as appropriate, when:
NOTE− The warning signal is not a prohibitive signal and can be followed by any other light signal, as circumstances permit.
a. Aircraft are converging and a collision hazard exists.
b. Mechanical trouble exists of which the pilot might not be aware.
c. Other hazardous conditions are present which call for intensified pilot or operator alertness. These conditions may include obstructions, soft field, ice on the runway, etc.

So, if you see red/green, take your best guess.
 
PeterNSteinmetz said:
What is an example that calls for this?
Click to expand...
One hypothetical I thought of is flooding or other contamination on a portion of the runway. Or maybe the runway is just wet and braking action has been reported as poor.
 
how about things like "Caution wake turbulence" or "Caution, lots of bird activity around the airport". of course when your radio is down, you cant hear any of them.. so the red and green comes to the rescue (pun intended)
 
WannFly said:
how about things like "Caution wake turbulence" or "Caution, lots of bird activity around the airport". of course when your radio is down, you cant hear any of them.. so the red and green comes to the rescue (pun intended)
Click to expand...
I've never "had" to use signals, but I've always wondered if a red/green might make a go-around a good idea. If it's solid green the next time around then OK, and if it's still flashing you might have had a chance to see a reason for it.
 
Matthew said:
I've never "had" to use signals, but I've always wondered if a red/green might make a go-around a good idea. If it's solid green the next time around then OK, and if it's still flashing you might have had a chance to see a reason for it.
Click to expand...
a go around in a busy controlled environment when you are not talking and Tower doesnt know your intentions can pose some different set of problems ... for them mostly. would they divert arriving big irons and others in the pattern? would they hold the departing traffic? lots of unknowns.

love to hear from some of our ATC people. @Timbeck2
 
WannFly said:
a go around in a busy controlled environment when you are not talking and Tower doesnt know your intentions can pose some different set of problems ... for them mostly. would they divert arriving big irons and others in the pattern? would they hold the departing traffic? lots of unknowns.
Click to expand...

Sure, you need situational awareness. You'd have to be ready for that red light in your scenario, go somewhere else and sort it out.
 
bflynn said:
Would this be suggesting there are times when I'm not using caution when landing at a controlled field without a radio? (joke)

FAA order 7710.65

3−2−2. WARNING SIGNAL
Direct a general warning signal, alternating red and green, to aircraft or vehicle operators, as appropriate, when:
NOTE− The warning signal is not a prohibitive signal and can be followed by any other light signal, as circumstances permit.
a. Aircraft are converging and a collision hazard exists.
b. Mechanical trouble exists of which the pilot might not be aware.
c. Other hazardous conditions are present which call for intensified pilot or operator alertness. These conditions may include obstructions, soft field, ice on the runway, etc.

So, if you see red/green, take your best guess.
Click to expand...
In other words, "good luck, we're all counting on you"
 
In the late 1980s, I had a radio failure in the pattern in a C-152 while teaching a primary student.

It was a very busy pattern with a lot of training aircraft--probably eight to ten aircraft on frequency. The airport hosted a university flight program as well as three additional, busy, flight schools. We were flying closed traffic patterns and the radio failed about the time we turned downwind but before we had been given our sequence for the next landing.

The student was a business owner who had a habit of learning the information that he thought important and ignore information that he deemed unimportant. Since radios are 100% reliable, light gun signals had, of course, been deemed unimportant.

Before the radio failed, I had heard an inbound aircraft call who had been given instructions to enter a right-base. We were on right-downwind. I walked the student through figuring out a best guess at our sequence from what we knew of the traffic in the area. We picked out the right-base traffic and adjusted to follow him as he followed the aircraft that had been in front of us on downwind. On final, we received the light signal for 'cleared to land'.

After clearing the runway, we turned toward the tower (behind us) to get our 'cleared to taxi' light signal. Our taxi route required crossing a runway so, as we approached, I had the student angle toward the tower, just in case something had changed, and we saw another 'cleared to taxi' signal.

When that student showed up for his next lesson, he was very anxious for me to test him so he could show off his newly-acquired light signal knowledge. LOL

After that experience, I started giving my pre-solo students a light gun demonstration before they soloed.
 
Larry in TN said:
After that experience, I started giving my pre-solo students a light gun demonstration before they soloed.
Click to expand...

One of my CFIs, it was probably on a flight review, had me do at last one landing with light signals. In that case, I was told to remove my headset so I couldn't hear the radio traffic. CFI and tower were talking so they could verify clearances just in case, but I had to go strictly by the light signals because I couldn't hear their conversation.

The only time I thought I'd need the light gun for real was when I was solo on a very rough day. I can't remember if this was before or after my checkride, but I do remember I was alone in the plane. I had gone to an untowered airport for some pattern work and on the way back I couldn't contact tower. It turns out the day was so bumpy that when I had switched to the tower freq I had inadvertently bumped the volume knob down very low. I did my normal radio call from about 10 out and didn't get a response, I called again when I was a little closer and didn't hear anything, and I tried again. I was starting to think I'd have to make a decision pretty soon because I was getting closer to that D-space. I tried to troubleshoot a few things and then had that "uhh, yeah, that's it" moment and turned up the volume. Tower seemed pretty happy to have me answer back, so it was all good. I had two radios in that plane, I can't remember if I had thought about trying #2 or not.
 
WannFly said:
a go around in a busy controlled environment when you are not talking and Tower doesnt know your intentions can pose some different set of problems ... for them mostly. would they divert arriving big irons and others in the pattern? would they hold the departing traffic? lots of unknowns.

love to hear from some of our ATC people. @Timbeck2
Click to expand...

There are rare instances where we don't already know of a radio failure before they get to the pattern. Only a couple of times has there been one right after take off during my career. As you know, alternating red and green means to use caution. One example is clearing someone to land (helicopter) on a non-movement area because we can't control the maintenance vehicles, fuel trucks, and other assorted stuff. Also the use of a light gun is pretty common during exercises which employ radio silence.
 
After a complete electrical failure while IMC at night, I returned to my home airport and received light gun signals from the tower. They knew I was coming.

After the usual green lights for landing and taxi, they gave me the green/red for a few seconds as I taxied in.

I assumed it meant "Good luck; you're on your own."
 
If this is Charlie airspace this means go ahead and land, the FAA is going to chew your azz
 
The FAA should require a light signal at the runway threshold of every controlled airfield. Like a vasi “trafic light“. Steady green, cleared to land, steady red, not cleared to land and continue circling. (It would be manually controlled by the tower). It would also be used with every landing. Redundant safety.
 
wanttaja said:
The light didn't seem to have color, though...that is, I didn't really see it is "green." Just seemed like a white dot.
Click to expand...

I’m red/green deficient “color blind”, so I needed to get a “Statement Of Demonstrated Ability” to get my Medical back in 1975. For that, I went up with someone from the Miami GADO and they had the Opa Locka Tower shoot me signals, which I could clearly identify. The red was obvious. I could differentiate the green from the white, but for me the green does look pretty washed out. Same thing with green traffic lights - they’re “greenish” to me, but don’t radically differ from white street lights.
 
I've had to use them once, on my first solo XC. The alternator failed and I was NORDO. I called the tower from a nearby non-towered field using my mobile phone and told them I'd be coming. They reviewed the procedure and the signals with me, and then I went. I was so scared I don't know if I noticed the colors. Was just thinking "not red, not red"
 
ahypnoz said:
The FAA should require a light signal at the runway threshold of every controlled airfield. Like a vasi “trafic light“. Steady green, cleared to land, steady red, not cleared to land and continue circling. (It would be manually controlled by the tower). It would also be used with every landing. Redundant safety.
Click to expand...

Controllers would boo boo that about as often as the boo boo verbally
 
In the late 1980s I was flight instructing at a busy towered field. My flight school had a private pilot ground school and my wife signed up.

The class took a field trip to the tower and one of the controllers demonstrated the light gun for them. Someone asked a question about the different signals and the controller told them, "Green means do whatever you want, Red means go away!"

I guess he thought he was helping but all he did was create a class of future pilots who would never learn the light gun signal chart!
 
Thank you all for the Information on this topic,
I understand the color light produces, flash lights, but hope to never have to use them.

I wonder how offon ATC has to do it tho.
 
I had a radio issue once approaching a delta. I got flashing red, and thought to myself, WTF do I do now? So I turned away, fiddled with the radio again, and it worked, they cleared me in and cleared me to land. I had no trouble seeing the light.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top