Upgrading to sell ever worth it?

Judging from the replies here, it's hard to believe that there are folks who intentially buy planes to upgrade and flip. Of course they buy cheap, get the work done at a discount (either themselves or through a negotiated discount with a service provider), and market their product towards someone looking for a turnkey aircraft.

Generally speaking though, unless we are correcting an airworthiness deficiency, most of us are better off pricing the aircraft appropriately rather than fixing it up if we're looking for a quick sale.
 
Yeah, that's a lot of money put into that plane to not redo the faded baby poop yellow paint.

Also the piston twin market really is not the hottest market.
 
James331 said:
Yeah, that's a lot of money put into that plane to not redo the faded baby poop yellow paint.

Also the piston twin market really is not the hottest market.
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Doesn't have to be at that price.
 
Timbeck2 said:
Maybe because its baby poop yellow?
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If that is all you can find wrong with it, why hasn't it sold?

To me it is simply the wrong time of the year, and election cycle, buyers are simply holding their money in a wait and see situation.
 
Tom-D said:
Doesn't have to be at that price.
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Well if it hasn't sold, I may beg to differ.

As for the election, doubt anyone cares that much when it comes to buying, people with enough neurons to have 60large to blow on a plane aren't getting all hot and bothered over a pointless election, sure as heck not letting it change their life, doesn't matter who gets in office, the day after will be just like the day before, same ol' same ol'

It's a ugly azz twin with a old autopilot, in a market which isn't even nice to pretty twins, if that were a single engine PA24 with nice paint, same price, it'd be sold.
 
Funny thing this page..
Every one here always wants an aircraft with low time engines and props, glass navigator yet when you show them one they will find any excuse not to buy.
 
Tom-D said:
Funny thing this page..
Every one here always wants an aircraft with low time engines and props, glass navigator yet when you show them one they will find any excuse not to buy.
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I just want a mid time 172M with a 530WAAS that isn't beat to crap for under 40k. Or a midtime 182 with a 530WAAS for under 60k.
 
midcap said:
I just want a mid time 172M with a 530WAAS that isn't beat to crap for under 40k. Or a midtime 182 with a 530WAAS for under 60k.
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where have you looked?
 
OBTW the answers to this thread is proof of the OP's question.
 
I haven't been here in months, stopped by to see what was happening, and found this thread.

after I finished laughing, I thought I'd ask a question. Does anyone here actually fly an airplane? Between this thread and the 6PC, "I want to buy a Grumman" thread, you'd think all of you guys were experts, but I've never been able to apply most of the advice given out. Your goal seems to be to talk everyone out of flying....

Not sure what advice you're actually giving the buyer here, but from my vantage point, it all depends on how you're doing the upgrades. If you can do them yourself (with IA signoff), you can probably come out ok, but using avionics shop probably won't work well towards recouping your money. Airtex sells a reasonable interior for not a lot of money. The airtex carpet we put in our Travel Air held up really well and completely changed the look of the plane for less than $800 bucks and a days labor.

And the guy who wants a new engine for $50k.... Um. No. Not likely. I have no idea what the rest of the plane looks like, but whatever, I wish you luck.

Everyone trots around the idea of buy it complete and save money. I looked for months to find the complete plane I wanted, and never did find it. So I decided to do it myself. Not to make money, but rather to have what I want when I'm done. No guarantees that I won't have issues, but you have no guarantees that your fixed up cream puff won't either... Life is full of risk, you minimize what you can and then you take your chances.
 
Tom-D said:
If that is all you can find wrong with it, why hasn't it sold?

To me it is simply the wrong time of the year, and election cycle, buyers are simply holding their money in a wait and see situation.
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It hasn't flown in 5 years. Major mechanical repairs required because of that.
 
retailguy said:
I haven't been here in months, stopped by to see what was happening, and found this thread.

after I finished laughing, I thought I'd ask a question. Does anyone here actually fly an airplane? Between this thread and the 6PC, "I want to buy a Grumman" thread, you'd think all of you guys were experts, but I've never been able to apply most of the advice given out. Your goal seems to be to talk everyone out of flying....
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I fly my airplane which is Matterhorn White with Midnight Blue and Charcoal Gray accents. I'm not talking anyone out of flying but I will keep a brother from embarrassing himself by flying a baby poop yellow plane. I wouldn't let him walk around with a booger hanging out of his nose either. I'm a caring person.;)
 
Tom-D said:
Why hasn't this aircraft sold at this price? all the upgrades have already been done, look at the engine/prop times
http://www.trade-a-plane.com/search...N+COMANCHE&listing_id=2206734&s-type=aircraft
I've never seen one that well equipped listed at this low price.
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It's impossible to say without looking at it. How long has it been on the market? What is the condition? Major showstoppers? The Twin Commanche market is not as brisk as the 172 market so it naturally takes longer for a buyer and seller to match up.

One thing I've noted from looking at planes for sale is the the ones that are noticeably cheaper than the rest of their peers are cheaper for a reason.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I fly my airplane which is Matterhorn White with Midnight Blue and Charcoal Gray accents. I'm not talking anyone out of flying but I will keep a brother from embarrassing himself by flying a baby poop yellow plane. I wouldn't let him walk around with a booger hanging out of his nose either. I'm a caring person.;)
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lol. the plane I just bought is orange/tan. straight outta the 80's. You know what the easiest thing to fix, is? Yep. Paint. And the single refurbishment that gets you more money back on sale than anything else? Yep. Paint.
 
I'd rather take a beating than strip and paint an airplane. That's why its so expensive.
 
maybe $0.30 on the dollar return.....that ain't a great way to spend money. IMHO.

but....a fresh paint job is better to be a buyer than an aircraft seller.
 
lol. I know a guy who makes his living by refurbing and flipping airplanes. He LOVES guys like you two. So, tell me timbeck - what does it cost to paint that twin, with 2 primary colors and one extra color for a stripe?
 
Timbeck2 said:
More than I'd care to spend or ever hope to recoup when I sold it.
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I can have that airplane painted for 11k. My bonanza will cost 9k or 9.5k depending on whether or not I choose three or four colors. You are relying on what you've been told, and it doesn't have to be accurate....
 
I would have guessed 10 - 15k which, as I said, is more than I'd care to spend to hope to recoup if I sold it. What did you think I've been told?
 
Timbeck2 said:
I would have guessed 10 - 15k which, as I said, is more than I'd care to spend to hope to recoup if I sold it. What did you think I've been told?
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Just what you've told everyone else. You can't economically fix an old plane. It's tough, but you can do it if you're patient. That plane you guys have been looking at is a whole different sale and market with a paint job. You just have to rely that a plane not flown much since 11 will be ok engine wise. You buy that, fly it for a couple of years, put paint on it, and it's a very saleable plane.... There is value there - precisely because of the baby poop yellow color that causes people like you to walk away from it...
 
Timbeck2 said:
I would have guessed 10 - 15k which, as I said, is more than I'd care to spend to hope to recoup if I sold it. What did you think I've been told?
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I had my Bonanza painted a few years ago....it was quoted at $10,500....and was $13,500 all said and done.
 
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I have a friend who is an IA. His boss bought a Warrior for 31K, they put a new engine in it, new interior and a new paint job. If they were to sell it, they'd get about 31k for it. I bought my "old" plane (1969 Piper Cherokee 140) for $31k. The paint was in better than "good" condition and I've touched it up and polished it to at least an 8 out of 10. I've put a new starter, alternator, glare shield, leather interior, new Avion control wheel, new carpet and a few gauges and instruments in it. I seriously doubt I could ever get more than I paid for it if I sold it.
 
There will be someone out there who likes baby poop yellow and that plane will sell; it just won't be sold to me.
 
Timbeck2 said:
I have a friend who is an IA. His boss bought a Warrior for 31K, they put a new engine in it, new interior and a new paint job. If they were to sell it, they'd get about 31k for it. I bought my "old" plane (1969 Piper Cherokee 140) for $31k. The paint was in better than "good" condition and I've touched it up and polished it to at least an 8 out of 10. I've put a new starter, alternator, glare shield, leather interior, new Avion control wheel, new carpet and a few gauges and instruments in it. I seriously doubt I could ever get more than I paid for it if I sold it.
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Therefore, those two anecdotal examples mean it always ends that way, right? smh
 
there are other possibilities guys, open your eyes a little bit, try something risky and have it work once. the answer doesn't have to be "NO". BTW, if you're flipping a plane and you're messing with a warrior, you don't know what you're doing... The same could be said for a twin right now, except, you can probably buy that thing for 45-50k, not 59... Now you're in it with new paint for the asking price.... Try different perspective, that's all I'm saying.
 
retailguy said:
you think that would happen when you've had 10 planes painted there in the past two years?
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well....after the first...there wouldn't be a second. :D

btw....I do know a thingy or two bout maintenance.....but, once I retire I'll prolly do a wreck or two here and there. But, I can't image making any real money at it.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
well....after the first...there wouldn't be a second. :D

btw....I do know a thingy or two bout maintenance.....but, once I retire I'll prolly do a wreck or two here and there. But, I can't imaging making any real money at it.
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Yeah, I know you do, that's one of the reasons I am baffled by your response. You know that plane can be boroscoped on the bottom end. If that looks good, tops are cheap. That's your risk... You could probably top both engines on that plane for 5k, with overhauled cylinders. Maybe a little less. 11k for paint. Put some hours on it, and it appeals to both of you guys with your predispositions about what is good value. It's then sold quickly.
 
a twin Comanche is one of the most desirable small twins out there. I think that one had turbos too. All the better.
 
Timbeck2 said:
There will be someone out there who likes baby poop yellow and that plane will sell; it just won't be sold to me.
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But it will be - that's my point. Someone will buy it, paint it matterhorn white, midnight blue, with charcoal gray stripes and you'll jump all over it. Just like you did with your current plane... and they'll use the small profit they made to buy another and do it all over again...
 
I recently got my Cherokee back in the air after paint, and avionics upgrade. I've put about 20 hours on it since.
I can sell it right now for a few dollars more than I have in it. (not counting my labor)
But, all I really did was make it pretty, and update the radios from 1969 to ~1980. (no big expense there)
 
retailguy said:
But it will be - that's my point. Someone will buy it, paint it matterhorn white, midnight blue, with charcoal gray stripes and you'll jump all over it. Just like you did with your current plane... and they'll use the small profit they made to buy another and do it all over again...
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Profit?....:lol:
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
Profit?....:lol:
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On a serious note, two of the most well known plane flippers out there - Gary Estes in Mississippi, and Steve Weaver in West Virginia. How do they stay in business? Incidentally, both broker planes, but they also buy planes fix them and resell them... How do they do it if there is zero profit?
 
Skimping and cutting corners...... They're majoring in the cosmetics and minoring with repairs.

I've redone one and owned three. I made a small profit but nothing to live on.
 
hopeless. You don't know what you don't know... Good luck. I hope to sell a plane to you one day... lmao
 
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