Upgrade From a Grumman Tiger to ???

[WVTexan]

Hello,

I've only been flying about 1.5 years. I have owned a Grumman Tiger for just over one year and really like it. It is around 625 useful with full fuel, cruises at 130-135 @ 9-11gph and is really a joy to fly. Mostly, I fly 150nm missions but the beach is only 300nm and I'll be making a few trips this year. I live in WV and I am originally from TX. 1,050 miles between the two and I have grandiose visions of flying there with my family instead of a whole day wasted on commercial aviation and about $2k for 4 tickets. Just four of us now (2 kids ages 3 & 5) - but maybe one more.

What are your thoughts on an upgraded plane that will do a little better speed 150kts+, have some type of ice protection for the winters here and a little more room - maybe 5-6 small seats with low maintenance (I want to fly it, not work on it)? Twins are ok I suppose - but I am not rated in them yet. I have about 110 hours and will wrap up my IFR this spring. I have researched planes until I reached the end of the internet. I would like input from folks who've actually flown what they will be suggesting. I'll leave the budget open for now to see the full list of options.

Thanks!

Thanks!

 

[txflyer]

You left budget open so you're going to get as many suggestions as members most likely. And no experimental?

For four people, 150+ cruise, in-production and maintenance issues and all around traveling it's going to be hard to beat a Bo for a 1000+ mile trip.

If $$$$'s no object ... TBM850 or Pilatus. Edit in: Since it's your whole family, you may want to pursue a Cirrus with BPS.

 

[Pilawt]

By definition, from a Tiger to anything else is a downgrade.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Bo or 210. Might be easier to find a 210 with some ice protection. But with 110 hours, I'd stay far, far, far away from ice...hope this is an investment in future utility, not a feature you're planning to use soon.

You said low maintenance, so I think you just ruled out anything with two engines.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

By definition, from a Tiger to anything else is a downgrade.

No, I think a nice Super Viking would be considered an upgrade from a Tiger. Just need to be into the care and feeding of something with fabric and wood.

 

[Cpt_Kirk]

No, I think a nice Super Viking would be considered an upgrade from a Tiger. Just need to be into the care and feeding of something with fabric and wood.

Plus, nothing beats the original Viking promo video.

 

[docmirror]

By definition, from a Tiger to anything else is a downgrade.

Stay out of ice in GA. Sometimes saving 20 minutes isn't really saving 20 minutes.

 

[Henning]

What's your family size and weight? How much stuff are you hauling 1000+ miles?

In a SE plane if you can come inside the load the only option there is if there is a healthy enough budget is a FIKI Turbo SR-22, or get a BRS fitted to a well equipped FIKI TAT A-36 Bonanza, it would do it non stop with a light cabin load.

For a much lower cost of entry, you can also get in a Deiced 310 or Baron with a better useful load.

At the bottom of the budget scale I would be looking at a straight tail Lance.

 

[Tom-D]

No, I think a nice Super Viking would be considered an upgrade from a Tiger. Just need to be into the care and feeding of something with fabric and wood.

I looked at a super Viking a week ago, the fabric was 30+ years old Poly Fiber/Ceconite. in prefect condition.

Cotton and dope went away 45 years ago, but the old wives tales never will

 

[James331]

For higher cruise and FIKI, for a real grown up plane, it's basically a 210, get one with a IO550 if you can, HSI and GNS430 or 530W and a good auto pilot with GPSS.

Anything outside from that and you should just keep the Grumman.

A Bo or a a Viking ain't going to be like a FIKI 210, also hope your CFII has some real world working pilot IMC time.

 

[frfly172]

Go the 210 route,there are plenty to choose from.

 

[Henning]

Go the 210 route,there are plenty to choose from.

What is the benefit to a 210 over a Lance?

 

[Pilawt]

In a SE plane if you can come inside the load the only option there is if there is a healthy enough budget is a FIKI Turbo SR-22, or get a BRS fitted to a well equipped FIKI TAT A-36 Bonanza, it would do it non stop with a light cabin load.At the bottom of the budget scale I would be looking at a straight tail Lance.

What is the benefit to a 210 over a Lance?

Piper ad from 1980 (dig the turtle-neck!). Lance cabin is the same as the Saratoga.

 

[Henning]

Piper ad from 1980 (dig the turtle-neck!). Lance cabin is the same as the Saratoga.

Exactly, if you want an easy to load 165kt family plane, the clear choice for the budget is a straight tail Lance.

 

[Pilawt]

Exactly, if you want an easy to load 165kt family plane, the clear choice for the budget is a straight tail Lance.

A Lance, more like 155; 160 if you push those 300 ponies pretty hard. But it is comfortable.

 

[Henning]

A Lance, more like 155; 160 if you push those 300 ponies pretty hard. But it is comfortable.

I used to fly my girlfriends dad around in a straight tail at 160 without straining it, but yeah, you give up a few knots to an A-36. Go to a PA-32RT series though and 170-175 TASs up in the teens happen, but kids typically hate 02 as much as I do.

 

[poadeleted20]

What are your thoughts on an upgraded plane that will do a little better speed 150kts+, have some type of ice protection for the winters here and a little more room - maybe 5-6 small seats with low maintenance (I want to fly it, not work on it)?

When you start talking about an airplane with that sort of capability, low maintenance is at best a wish and at worse a delusion. At a minimum, you're talking about something like a Piper Matrix, which comes in at around $700K and up used. Is that in your budget? However, if you drop the icing capability, a lot of much more reasonably priced options open up.

I have about 110 hours and will wrap up my IFR this spring.

Nobody will write insurance on a Matrix for a PP with 110 hours and no retractable time or instrument rating. So I think what you need is something to be a "step-up" plane between what you have and what you want. Something like a Piper PA32-series (Cherokee Six/Saratoga/6X) would provide everything you want except the icing capability for a quarter the cost, and much more insurable at your level of experience (although you'd probably do well to get your IR in your Tiger before trying to move up).

 

[farmerbrake]

What about the new cirrus jet?
No budget given, seems like a fair idea
Edit to add: I haven't really looked into this as I know it's not in my possible aircraft. Just stirring up some trouble along with my hopes and dreams of maybe one day getting to fly one (in person not on X-Plane )

 

[txflyer]

What about the new cirrus jet?
No budget given, seems like a fair idea
Edit to add: I haven't really looked into this as I know it's not in my possible aircraft. Just stirring up some trouble along with my hopes and dreams of maybe one day getting to fly one (in person not on X-Plane )

I mis-read your handle at first glance I thought it said farmerbroke...

There's broke and then there is farmer broke.

 

[farmerbrake]

I mis-read your handle at first glance I thought it said farmerbroke...

There's broke and then there is farmer broke.

Hahaha ain't that the truth sometimes though?! I mean flying is bad enough, but add in some crops and cows and the money flies away faster than a concorde jet!

 

[WVTexan]

By definition, from a Tiger to anything else is a downgrade.

This is true! The Tiger really is a blast to fly around.

Thanks for all of the feedback. I have flown in a Saratoga before and loved it. I wasn't even in training back then so I didn't truly appreciate the experience. One of my flying buddies has a Cherokee six/300 that I could easily buy in to but there are already 4 owners. Might not be enough plane to go around.

I really like the Cirrus (and so does my wife). Our kids are small (3 & 5) and I weigh about 200 and the rest of the family combined weighs about the same. I looked at the 210 just this weekend. I really wish there was an optional 5th seat in case we have another kiddo.

I also don't plan to fly in to ice just yet. But I spent the better part of 4 months canceling flights because of light ice at 4k-5k feet. I could have filed for 3500 but it was cold, we have terrain and I just didn't like the idea. I would like to punch through it on departure for 1-2 minutes and be on my way. Again - nothing I plan to do for a long time. But I want the ability to take off or continue my trip across the country if a little ice pops up.

Looks like the 210, SR22, Lance/Six/Toga aren't best bets. I like the Seneca/Baron but I don't know if I'm ready to tackle a twin and certainly not a twin in IMC. My wife is really keen on a bigger plane with more room and a parachute or second engine. I'm really keen on making her happy so I can fly the family safely around the country.

 

[Henning]

At this point in your family life, I can't think of a plane that fits you better than an SR-22, you have at least a decade where you should get excellent use out of it, and likely longer.

 

[rbridges]

What is the benefit to a 210 over a Lance?

I was thinking Lance, too. It should eat up a family and get the speed he wants. I don't know if it meets the range; I figure you will need to stop once for the TX trip.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Well from my 79 Grumman Tiger I "upgraded" to a Cub on amphibious floats. I figured out as an airline pilot I really don't need a fast airplane. If want to really cover some distance it's cheaper for me to just do it for free. My next planned "upgrade" is an even slower aircraft - a two place Gyrocopter !

 

[Henning]

I was thinking Lance, too. It should eat up a family and get the speed he wants. I don't know if it meets the range; I figure you will need to stop once for the TX trip.

A Lance will out range a toddler any day. When flying with non pilot pax, unless you bring a potty, you're landing every 3-4 hrs anyway.

 

[Henning]

Well from my 79 Grumman Tiger I "upgraded" to a Cub on amphibious floats. I figured out as an airline pilot I really don't need a fast airplane. If want to really cover some distance it's cheaper for me to just do it for free. My next planned "upgrade" is an even slower aircraft - a two place Gyrocopter !

The only thing you miss is the transitional views down low, especially coming into the mountains from the plains or desert with the sun rising behind you. That's always been one of my favorite views in aviation, and I spent a lot of money getting it.

I like crossing the country around 250AGL.

I'm thinking about an Avid Catalina though since it trailers anywhere.

 

[Art VanDelay]

The only thing you miss is the transitional views down low, especially coming into the mountains from the plains or desert with the sun rising behind you. That's always been one of my favorite views in aviation, and I spent a lot of money getting it.

I like crossing the country around 250AGL.

I'm thinking about an Avid Catalina though since it trailers anywhere.

I remember when the Avid Catalina's first came out. I was in Navy Flight school at the time. I really wanted one badly. I think they might be hard to find currently. What engine are you thinking of going with ?

 

[Henning]

I remember when the Avid Catalina's first came out. I was in Navy Flight school at the time. I really wanted one badly. I think they might be hard to find currently. What engine are you thinking of going with ?

914 for Lake Como use. The great thing is with a low profile enclosed trailer, it goes anywhere in the world cheap. There are usually half a dozen a year that come up.

 

[WVTexan]

Thanks again for all of the great info. I will research the Lance a bit more. I fully plan on stopping at least once if not twice on my way to Texas. 3-4 hours is about max we'll make it without a potty break so that isn't an issue.

 

[Henning]

Thanks again for all of the great info. I will research the Lance a bit more. I fully plan on stopping at least once if not twice on my way to Texas. 3-4 hours is about max we'll make it without a potty break so that isn't an issue.

I think you would be very happy with a straight tail Lance, and you can buy one at a price that may allow you a glass panel upgrade. Personally I wouldn't worry about deice gear too much, just straight up avoid it. Yeah, it costs you some utility, and every now and then it's going to cost you some money being caught out and needing to make a schedule, but unless that happens a lot, it's not going to match the cost of owning a FIKI airplane. BTW, if you do decide you want FIKI capability, the cheapest way to get that is with the straight tail Lance's brother, the Seneca II. You will actually be able to buy one at a discount from the Lance with about a 1.3-1.5x the increase in operating cost. Twins really are nothing to be afraid of, just train well.

 

[strangebird]

Do you have an instrument rating? Any high performance time?
With 110 hours and 1.5 years under your belt, keep the Tiger and take the airlines, you will be money ahead a alive, work your way up to the fast stuff, get a 182 next

 

[Art VanDelay]

914 for Lake Como use. The great thing is with a low profile enclosed trailer, it goes anywhere in the world cheap. There are usually half a dozen a year that come up.

Searey had a folding wing option for a short time. I don't know whatever became of it though. The 914 would be a rocket on the Catalina for sure. Would probably cost more than the entire airframe though !

 

[weilke]

A36, Lance, T210.

All three will have a painful insurance bill im year 1. Get your IR in the tiger.

Ice protection, both inadvertent and known is available in 210 and A36. There are a few Lance/Togas with boots. It is just another system to maintain, I would not consider this a 'must have'.

 

[Dav8or]

Well, back in the old days you were supposed to go from the Grumman Tiger to the Grumman Cougar. Keep it in the family!

 

[asicer]

Well, back in the old days you were supposed to go from the Grumman Tiger to the Grumman Cougar. Keep it in the family!

Except that the Cougar only has one door instead of the Tiger's sliding canopy. The entire family can't hop in and out of the airplane all at once any more

 

[Henning]

Searey had a folding wing option for a short time. I don't know whatever became of it though. The 914 would be a rocket on the Catalina for sure. Would probably cost more than the entire airframe though !

And still less than $40k for the whole package with a trailer.

 

[Henning]

Well, back in the old days you were supposed to go from the Grumman Tiger to the Grumman Cougar. Keep it in the family!

That's a completely differnt design though with no airframe commonality right?

 

[James331]

Do you have an instrument rating? Any high performance time?
With 110 hours and 1.5 years under your belt, keep the Tiger and take the airlines, you will be money ahead a alive, work your way up to the fast stuff, get a 182 next

Do you have any AA1 or AA5 time?

They lend themselves VERY well to high performance aircraft, even the 108hp AA1 flys like a high performance machine, I'd transition a AA1/5 pilot into a 210 any day.

They ain't like your FBOs 172/PA28

 

[Henning]

Do you have any AA1 or AA5 time?

They lend themselves VERY well to high performance aircraft, even the 108hp AA1 flys like a high performance machine, I'd transition a AA1/5 pilot into a 210 any day.

They ain't like your FBOs 172/PA28

It doesn't matter, it's poor theory anyway and is actually punished by the insurance industry. The more time you have before you get into a retract, the more they charge you for the first 100 hours.

 

[WVTexan]

On the IFR question, I am about 70% percent of the way right now.

I both agree and disagree with "working my way up". I went against a lot of folks when I got the Tiger instead of a 172. I will say, it is substantially more airplane and everyone that flies it, loves it. The problem I have with "working my way up" (and I have put serious thought into a 182 next), is the amount of time, paperwork, taxes and nonsense associated with buying and selling airplanes. I feel like I would be constantly buying and selling airplanes (and therefore paying for inspections, brokers and taxes) every 2-3 years. Then, what if I get stuck with one I can't sell?

I am a bigger fan of buying a little more plane, paying more money for an instructor (10-15 hours) and then setting high minimums on the plane for the first 50-100 hours at least. I am honestly just now getting comfortable with my Toger and I have about 60 hours in it. I am probably at least 1 year out from upgrading. I should have 150-200 hours by then.

Seneca is a good idea and I have at least one other person at my local airport that would go in with me. How are they on long trips (and short 150-300 mile trips) as compared to the Lance, 210 & SR22? Is it sort of a waste to use it I a small trip? I am in the old "small" mountains and it would be nice to get the extra climb. I'll spare this thread the twin vs single debate.