Upgrade From a Grumman Tiger to ???

[weilke]

Seneca is a good idea and I have at least one other person at my local airport that would go in with me. How are they on long trips (and short 150-300 mile trips) as compared to the Lance, 210 & SR22? Is it sort of a waste to use it I a small trip? I am in the old "small" mountains and it would be nice to get the extra climb. I'll spare this thread the twin vs single debate.

Buy the plane you need, not the one the peanut gallery tells you to get. Skip the 182, won't do much that your Tiger doesn't unless you plan on doing any backcountry strips.

How much of your flying is travel and how much is just fun and proficiency flying ? You don't see many twin drivers just out flying for fun. Even a Seneca at 20gph turns that $200 crab-cake into a $300 crab-cake.

If I got this right, you have two small kids at this point. A SR22 would give you plenty enough payload/range yet it is not too much plane to just go flying for 2 hrs.

I have two kids and a share in a A36TC. It is a great 4-seater as that leaves you room for all the stuff that likes to travel along with a kids. Club seating and fold-out table in the back allows everyone to stay occupied. I have plenty of pictures of my wife curled up in the third row asleep with the kids spreading cake crumbs in the plane

Be very realistic on whether you need ice protection. While I have picked up some ice here and there (most of it in your neck of the woods), I dont think there are many trips I would have taken with ice protection available that I haven't taken now. If you decide you need it, I see four options:
- a booted 210
- a booted Seneca (II,III,IV,V)
- a A36 with fiki TKS
- a G3 SR 22

Both the 210 and the Seneca also offer the option of radar, mostly for summertime flying. Otoh, once you get into a plane with two engines, boots AND radar, the number of things that can eat $1000 in a afternoon at the shop is pretty high.

The lowest entry price for known ice is probably a 210 followed by a Seneca, a TKS Bo and with the G3 Cirrus on the top. What you save on the purchase with the twin, you are going to spend on fuel and component overhauls to make up for it over the next two years.

Once you drop the need or ice protection, the entry price drops down considerably. Any of the HP singles would probably serve you well for many years to come. I know several people who pretty much bought one plane and owned it for 25-30 years. HP singles offer a lot of utility for relatively modest expense, whether you buy a 210, Bonanza, SR22 or TB21 is more a question of religion.

 

[Henning]

Buy the plane that is going to fill the roll you have for it for the next 10 years, and train to proficiency in it as soon as you can. That's how you get the best value from your aviation $$$. Trading up planes is hugely expensive, especially in this market where airplanes are cheap and the cost of finding and making a deal a significant percentage of that. No matter what you insure in, after 100hrs in it you will be around 1.5% the insured value for a premium. Every upgrade carries with it a first 100 hr extra premium.

A 10 year cycle also lets you get full usage value out of panel upgrades.

 

[WVTexan]

Hey Weilke & iHenning - thanks for the input. I agree on the 182 in terms of not much of an upgrade. I originally was looking at a 182 and decided on the Tiger based on specs that are close to the same, but more fun to fly and a much cheaper entry point. Mine has a 430 with AP + alt hold so it is a pretty sweet setup.

I really think the A36 or Lance might be the way to go. SR22 is great, but to get 5 seats (albeit small for kids), I have to go with a 2012 around $550k and that isn't on the table right now.

 

[Hank S]

Sounds like its an A36.

 

[James331]

Just get the booted 210, you'll be fine getting your IFR in it, try to find one with a IO550 swap, you'll be fine.

Going from a AA5 to a 182 doesn't make much sense, the 210 is also more of a workhorse than the Bo.

 

[docmirror]

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_971133_Sale.html

As much as I love the Bonanza, I'd go this way. No affiliation. Stay out of ice, just too darn much to go wrong in a SE with ice. But, then again I'd keep the Tiger except for the seats needed.

<edit: better - http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1001273_Cessna+T210N+Low+TIM+Low+PRICE.html >

 

[Henning]

Just get the booted 210, you'll be fine getting your IFR in it, try to find one with a IO550 swap, you'll be fine.

Going from a AA5 to a 182 doesn't make much sense, the 210 is also more of a workhorse than the Bo.

Cold day in ****ing hell it is. Look around Australia and see which is doing duty as a bush plane, it sure as hell isn't 210s.

 

[poadeleted20]

That's a completely differnt design though with no airframe commonality right?

Yes, the design was a clean-sheet, ground-up design by the Grumman folks at Bethpage who'd just gotten done designing the F-14, and led by Roy LoPresti. But it shares common construction techniques (bonded skins, honeycomb panel cabin).

 

[Dav8or]

Yes, the design was a clean-sheet, ground-up design by the Grumman folks at Bethpage who'd just gotten done designing the F-14, and led by Roy LoPresti. But it shares common construction techniques (bonded skins, honeycomb panel cabin).

You used to have a Cougar didn't you? Is it a good step up for a Tiger owner, or are they better off with the usual suggestions for a family plane? Just curious. I have no personal experience with a Cougar. Airplane that is...

 

[weilke]

I originally was looking at a 182 and decided on the Tiger based on specs that are close to the same, but more fun to fly and a much cheaper entry point. Mine has a 430 with AP + alt hold so it is a pretty sweet setup.

It will sell in a week if you decide to.

I really think the A36 or Lance might be the way to go. SR22 is great, but to get 5 seats (albeit small for kids), I have to go with a 2012 around $550k and that isn't on the table right now.

A36, 210, Lance is a Chevy, Ford, Dodge decision (or more aptly Mercedes wagon, Ford Explorer, Dodge Ram pickup). You should fly all three and decide.

I have only flown the PA32 and the A36. The PA32 turns into a logging truck if loaded up to capacity, the A36 when above 3600lbs gets heavy but still pleasant. The native PA32 carries a bit more, has more room and more fuel tankage than the A36. The A36 with 285hp will fly a bit faster than the Lance with 300 and burn less fuel to do it. There are STCs available that will get both useful load, hp and tankage to that of a Lance. An A36-TN with IO550 and tip-tanks will carry a lot of weight for a long distance. A so equipped plane will set you back a nice penny though (if you skip the tip-tanks, you can get it equipped for known icing, but the bill for that is at 60k rather silly). With little kids, you may not even want or need the TN or the tip-tanks. You won't be flying the 5hr legs at 16,000ft with kids in the back. A regular A36 with good IFR instruments and AP (there is another religious argument to be made) would get you and the circus around for a long time. It'll make the 300nm, no issue. TX will require at least one stop, but with kids it may well end up being two stops anyway.

 

[Henning]

Yes, the design was a clean-sheet, ground-up design by the Grumman folks at Bethpage who'd just gotten done designing the F-14, and led by Roy LoPresti. But it shares common construction techniques (bonded skins, honeycomb panel cabin).

Ok, so it does have non standard construction technique/materials commonality which the same shops that deal with the Tigers et al will know.

 

[poadeleted20]

You used to have a Cougar didn't you? Is it a good step up for a Tiger owner, or are they better off with the usual suggestions for a family plane? Just curious. I have no personal experience with a Cougar. Airplane that is...

I went from a Yankee to a Cheetah to a Cougar to a Tiger -- what does that tell you? :wink2:

Seriously, the Cougar is a wonderful plane, but it's really two steps up from the Tiger -- the retractable gear Tiger with a 200HP engine and c/s prop that never got built would be the middle step. The Cougar with its 2x160HP engines was really just meant to be a trainer, and the 250HP version that never got built was going to be the 55 Baron/310/Aztec competitor. The Cougar has little more payload than the Tiger (only about 650 cabin load with full fuel, although full fuel is 7.5 hours so you can trade some for payload). Its extra 20 knots is nice, but at the end of the day, it cost far more in effort and money over a Tiger to operate and didn't give that much more capability in return. The second engine is nice for overwater ops and the like, but other than that, it doesn't give you much other than larger fuel, maintenance, and insurance bills.

In my case, the Cougar was just more plane than I needed, and the Tiger was exactly what I needed, so that's where I settled after spending almost 30 years bracketing the solution.

 

[poadeleted20]

Ok, so it does have non standard construction technique/materials commonality which the same shops that deal with the Tigers et al will know.

Yes, as far as the airframe skin/structure goes. The rest is pretty much light GA standard.

 

[James331]

Cold day in ****ing hell it is. Look around Australia and see which is doing duty as a bush plane, it sure as hell isn't 210s.

Look in africa, national bird of Namibia is the 210, here in the states quite a few govt organizations use 210s.

 

[Henning]

Look in africa, national bird of Namibia is the 210, here in the states quite a few govt organizations use 210s.

Only because the high wing does better in African brush. If you don't need the obstruction clearance the A-36 is a much more rugged, loading friendly, aircraft with better performance and no gear saddle issues to contend with.

 

[James331]

I have never seen a working Bo, the majority of 210s I've seen have been working planes.

Just one mans observation.

A booted 550 210 would be way better than a Bo for this guys mission.

 

[weilke]

A booted 550 210 would be way better than a Bo for this guys mission.

How ?

 

[Henning]

I have never seen a working Bo, the majority of 210s I've seen have been working planes.

Just one mans observation.

A booted 550 210 would be way better than a Bo for this guys mission.

I take it you never lived in Australia.

I think a Lance would be better than either. More room for bikes and stuff with 2-3 kids.