Upgrade: Arrow to ?

mandm

mandm

Pattern Altitude
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Display name:
Michael
Some chit chat…

->Want more space, not necessarily more pax
->Want more useful load (well mostly for fuel, we love extra fuel)
->Want more speed (current 150mph, ideally want 200mph+)
->Want more range (ideally 1000nm+)

My mechanic suggested a Saratoga, I guess a Lance is the older version of a Saratoga?
 
I don't know very little about the Saratoga, but with the Bonanza we can pick up a few hundred extra pounds of UL by adding tip tanks. The extra load capacity can be used either in the cabin, or for extra fuel.
I like everything about my Bonanza (V35) except the useful load and the aft CG. But there are trade-offs with every plane and since my Bonanza is used almost exclusively as a traveling machine for two people, it is perfect for us.

edited to fix a stupid error.
 
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You’ve described a short-body Bonanza with extended baggage.
 
mandm said:
Some chit chat…

->Want more space, not necessarily more pax
->Want more useful load (well mostly for fuel, we love extra fuel)
->Want more speed (current 150mph, ideally want 200mph+)
->Want more range (ideally 1000nm+)

My mechanic suggested a Saratoga, I guess a Lance is the older version of a Saratoga?
Click to expand...
The lance will give you 2.5 of those 4. tons of space, mine has 1400 lbs useful, and will do 150 knots under perfect conditions.
you won’t get anywhere near 1000 mile range though. Especially at 150 knots.
 
An RV-10 with extended range tanks isn't a bad option. It will do 165-175Knots, very good useful load, and with long range tanks, could do 1000nm+. Not a LOT of extra room inside, but it is close to or better than an Arrow.
 
The toga is the tapered wing version of the lance. Think cherokee 180 vs archer. Pa32's tend to have lower UL's the newer they get. Mine will carry 900lbs payload with full fuel, the 90's saratogas are more like 600. Full fuel is 6 hours, like Salty I cruise at 150 knots, burning ~15gph.

A bonanza might get you closest to what you want. With tip tanks I think it would check all your boxes, although you won't be gaining anything width wise.

Where a pa32 shines is the width. Two big guys like me can sit in the front seats without touching. Also the big cargo door and load hauling capability. If you don't need those there are usually better options.

If you plan to keep making epic trips like Chicago- Alaska, I'd be thinking about something with a turbo. Budget is going to be a driver.
 
I upgraded from an Arrow to an A36 Bonanza.

4 people and luggage in comfort, and more than enough useful load for that mission. No CG issues, either.
Close to 200 mph cruise speed. More than 200 mph if you add a turbocharger or turbonormalizer.
Not quite 1000 miles range with standard tanks, but you can get there with tip tanks.

A joy to fly, great build quality. Looks great on the ramp. Faster than a Lance/Saratoga at less gallons/hour.

The one downside I see is acquisition cost.

- Martin
 
This desire for a true XC machine sounds like a thread that was born of your XC trip to Alaska! :cool:
And it sounds very much like the hunt I began last year (and I'm in an arrow too). What's the price limit? That seems like a dominating factor.

Aircraft that came up in my search that I still routinely check that I think check your boxes (so long as your desire for more #UL is only for gas/range):
Columbia 400 (>=220kts, FL250, >1100 mile range, $300-500k -- most seem to be 3-4 range, Van Bortel + NexGA often have quite a few). Insurance quoted me 12k$ moving from arrow with 400k hull covg.
Columbia 350 (~180kts, 18k ft, ~1000 mile range IIRC, $250-350k). Insurance quoted me 9k$ first year on 350 hull covg.
Lancair Super ES (~190kts, 18k ft, >1000 mile range, $180-350k over the last several months, listings are scarce)
Mooney M20M Bravo (>200kts, FL250, >1000 mile range, $200-300k) [There's other Mooneys that would satisfy your criteria too, I believe]
PA46... But I don't track these because insurance is absolutely insane for someone w/my hours+qualifications.

I've also often frequently looked at the Lancair Legacy RG and the nearly equivalent Glasair (>200kts, range >1000m, ~$150-230k). Small 2 seaters but fast as can be. And hey if your extra #UL is just for gas + range... these would check those boxes!
 
I really do like the Arrow, but space is the major issue, so looking for something that is bigger without losing on range, speed or UL.

When taking off from shorter strips, definitely the thought of a turbo popped in my mind, but after reading more on POA and online, the thought of extra mx would be a drawback. But also I don’t normally fly high (even out west), I think I’d rather fly closer to the mountaintops for the views vs always being above the clouds.

Range and Speed of the Arrow, well I know the POH range but I’ve done approx 620nm (713sm) myself and that’s being in the airplane longer than what’s enjoyable. I’ve also landed with less fuel than I’d like to have (still having enough reserves - although 30-45min reserves is not much for a change in wind or deviation).

The Lance seems great for the space and speed although I don’t have a clear understanding of the range. I don’t want to lose range.

Have thought about the Piper Matrix, although will I be wasting fuel at lower altitudes? Given it’s unpressurized and I fly xc with my dogs, I don’t think that’s a viable option to fly higher.

Have thought about a Bonanza as well but leaning towards the Lance.

Priorities in order are:
1) Space (more roomie and comfortable to sit in)
2) Extra fuel (I guess this is Range)
3) Speed
4) Useful load
 
I love my bonanzas but a pa32 is just delightful inside if room is the top priority. You can take a turbo saratoga up highish to get your speed numbers. Not sure which configuration will get the range though. It seems there is some silent barrier in most XC piston planes at the 800nm mark where the manufacturers dare not go beyond :)
 
mandm said:
I really do like the Arrow, but space is the major issue, so looking for something that is bigger without losing on range, speed or UL.

When taking off from shorter strips, definitely the thought of a turbo popped in my mind, but after reading more on POA and online, the thought of extra mx would be a drawback. But also I don’t normally fly high (even out west), I think I’d rather fly closer to the mountaintops for the views vs always being above the clouds.

Range and Speed of the Arrow, well I know the POH range but I’ve done approx 620nm (713sm) myself and that’s being in the airplane longer than what’s enjoyable. I’ve also landed with less fuel than I’d like to have (still having enough reserves - although 30-45min reserves is not much for a change in wind or deviation).

The Lance seems great for the space and speed although I don’t have a clear understanding of the range. I don’t want to lose range.

Have thought about the Piper Matrix, although will I be wasting fuel at lower altitudes? Given it’s unpressurized and I fly xc with my dogs, I don’t think that’s a viable option to fly higher.

Have thought about a Bonanza as well but leaning towards the Lance.

Priorities in order are:
1) Space (more roomie and comfortable to sit in)
2) Extra fuel (I guess this is Range)
3) Speed
4) Useful load
Click to expand...
800 miles is about tops with a reserve in the lance. You can squeeze more going slower, and reality is probably closer to 700 if you’re loaded up and going fast.
 
I might have a Comanche that you would like.
Tip tanks which bumps the useful to 1300# and 6 hours of fuel @ 157ktas cruise in the 13 gph range.
Throttle back a little and climb higher and I've seen the range show over 1300nm on the fuel computer.
Panel kind of sucks though.
20210702_135028.jpg

I'm thinking about Twinkies or Baron 58 for us.
 
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The Lance is the sweet spot for the PA32 in my opinion. You have more useful load in your arrow than you would in a 2000 Saratoga.
 
ArrowFlyer86 said:
This desire for a true XC machine sounds like a thread that was born of your XC trip to Alaska! :cool:
And it sounds very much like the hunt I began last year (and I'm in an arrow too). What's the price limit? That seems like a dominating factor.

Mooney M20M Bravo (>200kts, FL250, >1000 mile range, $200-300k) [There's other Mooneys that would satisfy your criteria too, I believe]
Click to expand...
Bravo doesn't have a great useful load.

I have a 252 updated to Encore (extra 230 pound GW) with Monroy long range tanks.

I get 175 KTAS on just over 10 GPH. 104 gallons of fuel. 1119 pound useful load.

I just did KBJC (Denver) to 0W3 (NE Maryland) non-stop in 7 hours on 80 gallons of fuel. 1333 nm. Yes, there were some great tail winds. I hit 229 knots GS at one point. :D
 
mandm said:
Some chit chat…

->Want more space, not necessarily more pax
->Want more useful load (well mostly for fuel, we love extra fuel)
->Want more speed (current 150mph, ideally want 200mph+)
->Want more range (ideally 1000nm+)

My mechanic suggested a Saratoga, I guess a Lance is the older version of a Saratoga?
Click to expand...
So... What is your mission? Do you really want to sit in a small plane for 5+ hours to get your 1000nm range, or is it OK to make a stop in the middle? How many people and how much weight do you want to carry? Do you want to land on any unimproved strips, or in the mountains? Are you looking just for a cross country machine, or are there other things you'd like to do.

When I hear Space, I think bigger Cessna (182/206/210) or PA32.
When I hear Speed, I think entirely different things. (Though an R182 is still significantly faster than an Arrow.)
When I hear Useful Load, back to the ones with Space.
When I hear Range, I don't care because all you need is the tankage to get there, and the truly range-restricted options aren't ones I'd recommend anyway.

FWIW, I have a Mooney Ovation. Not much more room than an Arrow inside, but definitely more comfortable, especially if you are tall, and easier to load. Optimum cruise gets me about 175 KTAS at 9,000 feet on 12 gph. Useful load and range are both about 1,040 (pounds and nautical miles, respectively). It holds nearly 7.5 hours of fuel, so I can wait and buy cheap fuel. Payload-wise, I can take all the fuel and about 525 pounds, or I can take 4 hours of fuel (enough to easily do a 500-nm leg in 3 hours with reserve) and 750 pounds.
 
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