"unofficial" airspace restrictions

W

warthog1984

Cleared for Takeoff
Joined
Jul 22, 2013
Messages
1,447
Location
Chicagoan exiled to California
Display Name
Display name:
LanCA'r
Was wondering if any of you have ever run into unofficial airspace restrictions and/or goofy controllers.

For example, recently I had ATC assert that a particular Class D's airspace went up to 3000, even though the charts all say [24].

Another controller insisted that pilots needed permission to enter a Class C despite 2-way comms.

Is this common, or just SoCal?
 
Well, ATC can 'request' you turn on a mode C xpndr while flying in class E if they can't see you on radar...are these requests? or some kind of threat?
 
warthog1984 said:
Was wondering if any of you have ever run into unofficial airspace restrictions and/or goofy controllers.

For example, recently I had ATC assert that a particular Class D's airspace went up to 3000, even though the charts all say [24].

Another controller insisted that pilots needed permission to enter a Class C despite 2-way comms.

Is this common, or just SoCal?
Click to expand...
Nashville class C extends to 4600 but I assure you they would not be happy if someone flew over the top at 5000 without talking with them. If talking with them, I find they keep me high or vectored around.

As for your examples though, no, I have not observed that exactly.
 
CTLSi said:
Well, ATC can 'request' you turn on a mode C xpndr while flying in class E if they can't see you on radar...are these requests? or some kind of threat?
Click to expand...
Yeah, it's a threat -- if you don't turn on your transponder, they won't provide radar service to you. :D

Seriously, it's usually a request to make their lives easier so they can better point you out to other aircraft to whom they are providing service.
 
warthog1984 said:
For example, recently I had ATC assert that a particular Class D's airspace went up to 3000, even though the charts all say [24].
Click to expand...
That's not common, and probably worth a call to the facility to find out why they said that. OTOH, don't confuse an instruction to remain at 3000 MSL while passing over a D-space with a statement that the D-space goes up to 3000. They may have any number of reasons for instructing you to do that.

Another controller insisted that pilots needed permission to enter a Class C despite 2-way comms.
Click to expand...
As Pilawt noted, they have the option to tell you to stay out when you call, and in that case, having 2-way comm doesn't trump the instruction. However, if a controller told you, say, as part of a safety briefing on Class C procedures that explicit permission was always needed to enter C-space, it would be worth following up with the facility QA or management personnel.
 
I wonder if there might be an LOA with the Class D that says they handle the traffic up to 3k, and that's been misinterpreted that the class D itself extends to 3k?
 
JeffDG said:
I wonder if there might be an LOA with the Class D that says they handle the traffic up to 3k, and that's been misinterpreted that the class D itself extends to 3k?
Click to expand...

That is what it sounds like.
 
Ron Levy said:
Yeah, it's a threat -- if you don't turn on your transponder, they won't provide radar service to you. :D

Seriously, it's usually a request to make their lives easier so they can better point you out to other aircraft to whom they are providing service.
Click to expand...

What about if you're in a Class C outer area and receiving Class C services? Then it would be a directive and not a request, right?
 
Sac Arrow said:
What about if you're in a Class C outer area and receiving Class C services? Then it would be a directive and not a request, right?
Click to expand...
If you're in Class C airspace, then a transponder is a regulatory requirement, not an ATC directive or request unless you have specific deviation approval from ATC, . See 14 CFR 91.130(d/e) and 91.215(b)(1). If you're in the "outer area" outside a Class C airspace, you're not in Class C airspace, and most likely in Class E. In that case, it's either an instruction you must obey per 91.123, or notice that service will be terminated if you don't turn it on, depending on exactly what the controller actually says.
 
You need to be careful. If you're outside of Class A-D and VFR, you don't need to be talking to ATC. However, if you ARE talking to ATC, then 14 CFR 99.17 applies, which says "No pilot may deviate from the provisions of an ATC clearance or ATC instruction..."

If a controller tells you not to enter the Class C without explicit permission, then the controller is in effect telling you not to enter the Class C, in which case you have an instruction not to enter. Likewise, if you're receiving flight following and a controller tells you "remain above 3,000 ft outside the Class D" or whatever, then you're to remain above 3,000 ft regardless of how high the Class D actually extends. If you find this all annoying, then you can just cancel flight following, tune to 121.5, and just make sure you remain clear of Class B-D airspace.

Sometimes when I'm receiving FF under the Class B a controller will tell me "turn left/right to heading xxx," even when I'm operating outside Class B-D. Other times a controller will tell me "suggest heading xxx for traffic." The former is an instruction, the latter is not, although the wisest course of action is to follow the ATC "suggestion."
 
Last edited:
frcabot- I always follow ATC instructions, these were just a couple goofy things I ran across recently.

SoCal can be a little weird sometimes, even off the ground.
 
warthog1984 said:
frcabot- I always follow ATC instructions, these were just a couple goofy things I ran across recently.

SoCal can be a little weird sometimes, even off the ground.
Click to expand...
I guess it would depend how it was worded? Was the ATC controller telling you that you always needed permission to enter class C or just on that one occasion? Was the controller making an actual factual statement like Delta at that airport goes up to 3K or just saying remain above 3K and outside the D?

Sometimes the atc controllers just won't want you in, on, or even near their D. It's just one of those things, some controllers care more about their personal space.
 
In both norcal and socal I sometimes turn down ff so I don't get vectored around. With the traffic link in the plane I can spot traffic pretty easily so it's less imperative now for me to get ff.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're in Class C airspace, then a transponder is a regulatory requirement, not an ATC directive or request unless you have specific deviation approval from ATC, . See 14 CFR 91.130(d/e) and 91.215(b)(1). If you're in the "outer area" outside a Class C airspace, you're not in Class C airspace, and most likely in Class E. In that case, it's either an instruction you must obey per 91.123, or notice that service will be terminated if you don't turn it on, depending on exactly what the controller actually says.
Click to expand...

That was my take on it yes.
 
JeffDG said:
I wonder if there might be an LOA with the Class D that says they handle the traffic up to 3k, and that's been misinterpreted that the class D itself extends to 3k?
Click to expand...

That is a possibility. I've run into the opposite when transitioning over KTIW. Their D space goes up to something like 2500 MSL (may be a bit different, I don't have the TAC in front of me), which is below the floor of SEA's B space at that location. If you are anything above about 1800 MSL they have you contact SEA approach. LOA is the explanation I've received.
 
Ghery said:
I've run into the opposite when transitioning over KTIW. Their D space goes up to something like 2500 MSL (may be a bit different, I don't have the TAC in front of me), which is below the floor of SEA's B space at that location. If you are anything above about 1800 MSL they have you contact SEA approach. LOA is the explanation I've received.
Click to expand...
The top of the Troutdale (KTTD) Class D is kinda fuzzy that way, too.
 
warthog1984 said:
No prior instructions- just 2-way comms and a controller insisting on permission to enter the Charlie.
Click to expand...

If the controller tells you that you need permission he is, in effect, saying remain clear of Class C until further permission is granted. He is also saying it in a really obtuse and confusing way.

But if he is asserting that it is a statutory requirement that the pilot request explicit permission (like in bravo) before entering C airspace rather than just dialogue and a Mode C, then he is wrong.
 
frcabot said:
If a controller tells you not to enter the Class C without explicit permission, then the controller is in effect telling you not to enter the Class C, in which case you have an instruction not to enter.
Click to expand...
If the controller tells you that when you call on the radio to enter that controller's C-space, I agree. If a controller tells you that at a safety briefing on the ground, I don't.

Likewise, if you're receiving flight following and a controller tells you "remain above 3,000 ft outside the Class D" or whatever, then you're to remain above 3,000 ft regardless of how high the Class D actually extends.
Click to expand...
Agreed.

f you find this all annoying, then you can just cancel flight following, tune to 121.5, and just make sure you remain clear of Class B-D airspace.
Click to expand...
Not once you've received that instruction. Once it is issued, you are obligated to obey it until relieved of that obligation by the controller or an emergency requires deviation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top