Underage children logging dual?

RussR

RussR

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I know we have several pilots here, and many others know of some, who got their certificates at 17. Many likely started their training well before that, years in fact.

What is a reasonable age to start logging dual?

My daughter flies with me regularly in our plane. She probably has about 90 hours in the back seat (and I have a "passenger" logbook for her). She's not quite 6 yet, but is tall and it won't be too much longer before she'll be sitting up front.

As I am a CFI, I can of course teach her some things as we fly to BBQs and such, and she would love it and probably pick some things up quickly (she's an information sponge right now). So, teaching her about flying and aviation is perfectly valid and fine, and would be a lot of fun.

But putting an hour of dual received in a, say, 8-year old's logbook seems a little silly to me. But I don't know why - I mean, kids at that age learn things amazingly fast.

Of course, she probably wouldn't be able to reach all the controls, so maybe that's a good criteria right there as to when to call it "real" training.

Maybe a useful guideline would be something like "when she's able to understand the risk of her actions"? Something like that?

Or "when they are able to maintain focus for long enough for training to be productive"?

Obviously everybody who solos on their 16th birthday got some training before that. But how young did you start logging it? 13? 10?

Those of you with kids, or who where kids in this situation, how was it handled?
 
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Log any time you are instructions her as dual, any age under 16 is too young to log PIC in an airplane.
 
Start logging it any time she learns something (from the front seat), those hours will be valuable when it comes time for her to get her PPL. I can't thank my dad enough for filling out my dual received in my logbook when I was a youngin!
 
Get her started on ground school too. Six year olds love reading 14 CFR part 61 and 91.
 
With our son, I started signing dual in pilot logbook when he was big enough to see over the glare shield and reach the rudder pedals -- about age 13, IIRC. Before that, it seemed pointless.
 
Seriously though, if they're too small to see out, or reach the pedals, they're not really manipulating the controls. From a regulatory standpoint, there's nothing that forbids it, as long as all of the requirements for identity verification and record keeping have been complied with. That said, if something happened in an incident later and the only record of instruction given in that area was when she was 8 years old, you might find yourself having to do some explaining.
 
I have a logbook from when I was a baby until I was 15 or so with dual received. I'll have to ask my mom if she knows where it is. If she did I wouldn't need to be building so much time right now!! Kidding, I wouldn't use it towards the CPL requirements since it was all 10+ years ago.
 
I logged about thirteen hours when I was 12 years old. I then took a seven year break and got my PPL last year at age 19. Basically all I did at age 12 was pattern work and radio communication.
 
Brad Z said:
Seriously though, if they're too small to see out, or reach the pedals, they're not really manipulating the controls.
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Pedals are over rated.

Da nephew started flying by instruments because he couldn't see over the glare shield. But he could maintain altitude, heading, etc. And, had that time been logged as dual, then his total time would have been significantly higher when he went to get his first flying job. (Last I asked, he was driving a King Air.)
 
RussR said:
What is a reasonable age to start logging PIC?
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Just to reiterate the point, a student pilot can only log PIC when solo. Since a pilot cannot solo before the age of 16, (14 in the case of a glider.) the EARLIEST a pilot can log PIC is on his or her 16th birthday. ;)
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Just to reiterate the point, a student pilot can only log PIC when solo. Since a pilot cannot solo before the age of 16, (14 in the case of a glider.) the EARLIEST a pilot can log PIC is on his or her 16th birthday. ;)
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Ah! So the answer to what is a reasonable age to log PIC is, "whenever the regs permit the logging of PIC."

Sounds good to me.
 
Doesn't Ted's son have about 1,000 hours of multi at ~6 months?

By the time this kid solo's he'll have 20,000 hours.
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Pedals are over rated.
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:rofl: Yeah -- I've flown with some pilots who think that way (and I'm not talking Ercoupes). Usually takes a few extra hours on their IR training before they can track a localizer. Start kids at age 8 flying the plane by yoke/stick alone, and you've got the Laws of Primacy and Exercise working against them for the rest of their flying lives.
 
My first bit of dual was when I was 11. I also give dual to a 10 year old from time to time-he's actually a very good stick.
 
I'd say start logging it when you let her sit in the left seat.

My daughter's first lesson was on her 12th birthday (got out of school early!).
She sat in the left, instructor to her right, Dad left on the ramp, watching the girls fly away.
 
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Interesting thread. I still have a few years before I will start filling out my son's logbook. But I did start ground lessons age two :yes:

On a related note: since we both are on a green card, the alien flight student rules would apply. So to stay legal I have to pay the TSA $130 or so before teaching my son to fly.... The stupidity of those regs just bugs me to no end...
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Pedals are over rated.

Da nephew started flying by instruments because he couldn't see over the glare shield. But he could maintain altitude, heading, etc. And, had that time been logged as dual, then his total time would have been significantly higher when he went to get his first flying job. (Last I asked, he was driving a King Air.)
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Cant disagree with you more....pedals are not over rated. The fact that your nephew is flying a king air now does not support your position.

Before any training can be meaningful the student has to be able to manipulate the controls effectively and have the cognitive ability to understand what is going on.

not saying kids cant manipulate the controls to make the airplane flight fun and engaging. My son is three years old and he has "flown" the voyager....

Teaching a kid to fly before they are physically able to reach all of the controls is counterproductive..
 
Let kids do whatever is safe, not proper, with the controls. And log everything. It just doesn'tmatter and oneof you may look through thatlogbook with fondness some day.
 
Age 9 when this was taken. 10 now and almost able to reach the pedals. By the time she's 17 I plan to be sitting in the back sleeping
 

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Ron Levy said:
:rofl: Yeah -- I've flown with some pilots who think that way (and I'm not talking Ercoupes). Usually takes a few extra hours on their IR training before they can track a localizer. Start kids at age 8 flying the plane by yoke/stick alone, and you've got the Laws of Primacy and Exercise working against them for the rest of their flying lives.
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Tarheelpilot said:
Cant disagree with you more....pedals are not over rated. The fact that your nephew is flying a king air now does not support your position.

Before any training can be meaningful the student has to be able to manipulate the controls effectively and have the cognitive ability to understand what is going on.

not saying kids cant manipulate the controls to make the airplane flight fun and engaging. My son is three years old and he has "flown" the voyager....

Teaching a kid to fly before they are physically able to reach all of the controls is counterproductive..
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1) I was goofing on all you nosewheel pilots with the comment about pedals.

2) My nephew learned to fly in a Thorp (with no 'e') T-18. From there he went to a Pitts. In addition to flying King-Airs, he spent two seasons flying with a moderately well known air show - first season ferrying aircraft from gig to gig and flying acro rides for VIPs - second season he flew wing for the headline pilot and did a couple solo shows. He elected to not continue in that business after multiple acquaintances packed it in and he saw first hand how things sometimes things "happen" during an airshow - example:
It was an interesting night when he lost the aileron. The plane flew quite well with one and made a normal landing without incident. It did cause quite a bit of damage to the wing in addition to taking out half the canopy and hitting the horizontal.
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So I, for one, do not believe that being allowed to fly the airplane before he could reach the pedals resulted in any significant long lasting detrimental effect on his stick and rudder skills. Somewhere along the way he figured out what to do with his feet. I can also tell you that he is one **** of a lot better pilot than I (but I guess that's not saying much). And I also give him credit for realizing that he is not imortal at a reasonably young age.

3) The main point I was trying to make - in some cases people put an inordinate weight on the number in the "total time" column. Employers, Insurance companies, etc. Logging the time that a younger child spends flying as dual (assuming that mom/dad is a CFI) gives you a bigger number in that column if the child elects to move toward flying as a carer. The aforementioned nephew spent a lot of time flying the T-18 from one end of the country to the other just to build his hours. If he had needed to rent an aircraft to do the same it would have been a lot tougher. If a few hundred hours had been logged when he was younger, it wouldn't have been necessary.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Just to reiterate the point, a student pilot can only log PIC when solo. Since a pilot cannot solo before the age of 16, (14 in the case of a glider.) the EARLIEST a pilot can log PIC is on his or her 16th birthday. ;)
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Bah! Can't believe I typed that, didn't even realize it until just now. I hope everyone has realized I meant "dual received", not PIC. Not that it matters, but I've fixed my OP.
 
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Ron Levy said:
With our son, I started signing dual in pilot logbook when he was big enough to see over the glare shield and reach the rudder pedals -- about age 13, IIRC. Before that, it seemed pointless.
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Actually my daughter, flying with an instructor proved herself to be a pretty capable instrument pilot at the age of seven or so. She couldn't see out the windshield, so she flew by the gyro instruments. She did a standard rate 360 turn and rolled out smack on the heading and then announced she was going to do one next in the opposite direction. Her control put most instrument students to shame.

Oddly enough though as she grew older, despite letting her have a few 152 lessons when she got close to the soloing age, she didn't have the passion for it. She loved flying if it meant spending less time than driving (she particularly liked being whisked home for a dinner party from State College to IAD and returned in time to continue studying the next day.

Her husband on the other hand, is very much interested. I took him for a ride in the Navion the day after they were married.
 
sballmer said:
On a related note: since we both are on a green card, the alien flight student rules would apply. So to stay legal I have to pay the TSA $130 or so before teaching my son to fly.... The stupidity of those regs just bugs me to no end...
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Similarly, for US citizens, the flight instructor is required to see either a US Passport, or a birth certificate AND a government-issued photo ID before starting training, right? Well, my daughter is in Kindergarten, doesn't have a passport, and although I have the birth certificate right here, at least in our school district, she doesn't have a school ID card to count for the government ID. So I suppose I couldn't train her anyway, because I wouldn't be able to verify her citizenship, even though I watched her come out of the womb!:rolleyes::lol:

Brad Z said:
Get her started on ground school too. Six year olds love reading 14 CFR part 61 and 91.
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No doubt, I think that might be the new bedtime story. I'll start with 1.1, definitions. Bound to inspire her aviation fantasies.

Another question I'm thinking of, is this - so an 18-year old Commercial Pilot applies for a job somewhere with 2000 hours of flight time. Employer looks at the logbook and sees that the time dates back 12 years, with say the first 1000 hours being 8-12 years ago. Does this raise questions? Does it call into question the validity of the hours, or the usefulness of those as "experience"? Like the pilot didn't "pay their dues" to get those hours, since "obviously" the kid's parents were those "rich airplane-owning types." Anything like that?
 
Our son is approaching 6 months old. We started a logbook for him that dates from conception onwards. Obviously he's not logging dual at this point, but we figure it's a neat log of the flights he's been on from this point forwards. We're filling it out as a full logbook with approaches, day/night/actual, comments on the trip, etc.

Although we are both CFIs, obviously we aren't letting him log dual at this point since there is no instruction going on. We don't even know if he's going to want to fly or if he will just decide that airplanes are this weird thing that mommy and daddy do. But if he does have interest, we figure that around age 10 we'll give him a shiny new logbook that will actually have time logged as "Dual Received" with a signature from one of us, at least for the flights that he actually comes on and does.
 
It sure sounds like he figured out to use his feet ;-)

I still don't think he was short changed by not logging the hours early in life. All that time building in the t-18 was worth a lot....

To address some other comments about sentimental value of the logbook... I already log my kids flights with me in a book of their own. They'll get it after they have their ppl. Their "real" logbook starts when I feel like they are getting meaningful training.

Just my opinion.




Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
1) I was goofing on all you nosewheel pilots with the comment about pedals.

2) My nephew learned to fly in a Thorp (with no 'e') T-18. From there he went to a Pitts. In addition to flying King-Airs, he spent two seasons flying with a moderately well known air show - first season ferrying aircraft from gig to gig and flying acro rides for VIPs - second season he flew wing for the headline pilot and did a couple solo shows. He elected to not continue in that business after multiple acquaintances packed it in and he saw first hand how things sometimes things "happen" during an airshow - example:

So I, for one, do not believe that being allowed to fly the airplane before he could reach the pedals resulted in any significant long lasting detrimental effect on his stick and rudder skills. Somewhere along the way he figured out what to do with his feet. I can also tell you that he is one **** of a lot better pilot than I (but I guess that's not saying much). And I also give him credit for realizing that he is not imortal at a reasonably young age.

3) The main point I was trying to make - in some cases people put an inordinate weight on the number in the "total time" column. Employers, Insurance companies, etc. Logging the time that a younger child spends flying as dual (assuming that mom/dad is a CFI) gives you a bigger number in that column if the child elects to move toward flying as a carer. The aforementioned nephew spent a lot of time flying the T-18 from one end of the country to the other just to build his hours. If he had needed to rent an aircraft to do the same it would have been a lot tougher. If a few hundred hours had been logged when he was younger, it wouldn't have been necessary.
Click to expand...
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Pedals are over rated.

Da nephew started flying by instruments because he couldn't see over the glare shield. But he could maintain altitude, heading, etc.
Click to expand...

When my daughter was 6, we flew from Canton, OH up to Oshkosh for the big show in our 172. I didn't touch the controls from about 10 minutes after takeoff until we reached Chicago. It was basically an adult supervised video game to her. She could maintain the climb, steer to headings, etc ... it was an absolute blast for an oh so proud Papa. Every once in a while, I'd have to tap and instrument to get her attention, but I pretty much told her altitude and heading and had her fly the plane. Not a CFI so she couldn't log it, but it was amazing to me and she still remembers flying to the big show when she was but a 5 year old pumpkin.
 
My son has flown with me since 10 or 11 (he's now 17), and is basicaly a natural (no time logged). He showed no interest for awhile in the 14-15 range and is just now showing interest again.

Funny thing is on family trips the wife likes riding in the back and she freaks out if he's on the controls ... so now he declines flying if mom is on board (she also freaks a bit if "otto" is doing the flying and she sees no hands on any yoke).
 
I rode along with a CFII-MEI in his FIKI Turbo Aztec. His 7 year old son was sitting left seat"logging dual" but this kid basically did all the flying IFR while his dad (the instructor) was right seat handling the radio.

At the end of the flight I said how awesome it was that his son could handle all of that so well, snd he responded that his son had about 400 hours in the Aztec.
 
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