Twin Engine Aircraft Questions

Snaggletooth

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Dustin
I've been looking in to being a Charter Pilot for a while now. I was only planing on Flying Singles but now have started to like Twins more. It all started when I was leaving a Flight Lesson and a Twin Engine plane flew over with an awesome, deep, Throaty sound to it (what Twin has that kind of sound?). So I have a few questions about Twin Engine Planes.

1. Once I get my ASEL PPL How hard will it be to get my Multi-Engine License??

2. How much harder is it to fly a Twin?

3. What is a good Twin to use for Charter Piloting?

Thanks!
 
Snags,

I do not have a multi-rating so for what it is worth:

The biggest obstacle you face in becoming a multi- charter pilot is the cost of insurance. Insurance companies won't insure you until you have a bazillion hours in the twin. Well, it is less than a bazillion but it is still a lot.

Twins are not that much harder to fly in normal circumstances, but they are highly demanding to fly in one engine out situations. You have to be very good, very current, and react correctly the first time and quickly, too, or the outcome is likely to be fatal.

That's why your insurance company won't look at you until you have a log book full of experience.

Don't let this stifle your desire. But unfortunately you won't be flying paying passengers in a twin for a long time yet. 'sOK! Flying singles is fun, too!

-Skip
 
1. Once I get my ASEL PPL How hard will it be to get my Multi-Engine License??
Not that much harder. It is more training and time. Mostly it is $$$$

2. How much harder is it to fly a Twin?
I am not a ME rated pilot but I have flown them. There is more to do but it is not all that much harder. By the time you are doing ME your flying skills have developed quite a bit more than where you are at now. Planes still fly to the same rules regardless of how many engines.

3. What is a good Twin to use for Charter Piloting?
Depends. It depends on the mission, range, and payloads.
 
The multi-engine add-on is not difficult - it's mostly about flying with one engine inop.

However, you mention wanting to be a charter pilot. The "typical" path of instruction for that capability is (assuming you've already completed college)...

Private pilot - single engine land.
Instrument rating - for the single
Commercial certificate - in the single
Add on the multi-engine to the commercial certificate with instrument privileges.

Now you're a commercial pilot rated to fly on instruments in airplanes with engines. Of course, you're so green nobody will hire you. So then you:
Do the initial Flight Instructor certificate in a single. <<note: this is where I am in the process>>
Teach (hey you're finally getting paid to do work in an airplane!) in the single and save money and practice to:
Add the instrument rating to your flight instructor certificate
Add the multi-engine rating to your flight instructor certificate.

Now you are starting to build hours (good), and teaching others to fly WILL help you master flying. Take every opportunity to fly different airplanes, to network, to get known as a good, reliable, mature pilot. Eat a lot of Ramen and make very little money.

Move your way up the ladder - the charter world is sometimes hard to break into, particularly when the airlines have it tough - there will be a glut of recently-furloughed airline pilots on the market way more qualified than you. When the airlines are in a "boom" phase they can often siphon away junior charter talent - and you can jump in.

Starting pilot pay pretty much SUCKS (compared to any office job) whether you're in an airliner or a charter plane. Stick with it, it doesn't suck forever.

You CAN short-circuit the typical path if you have a lot of money to spend for training and experience, or already have great connections to the outfit you want to work for. Or you can take a "regular job" like me, and work your way up the path much more slowly (but with much better finances) and transition to flying later in life, perhaps for the last 20 years of your professional life.

Timing is everything in a flying career. Networking is probably a very close second.
 
You CAN short-circuit the typical path if you have a lot of money to spend for training and experience, or already have great connections to the outfit you want to work for.

Da nephew worked at an FBO that did charter flights (A lot of organ transplant flights using King Airs) for several years while he worked on getting the commercial /multi / etc. ratings - since they knew him he got a right seat job with a lot fewer hours than most...
 
Thanks for all the help guys!!

My over all goal is to have my own Charter Company. If I go for Singles (I probably will) I'd like a Beech Bonanza/Cessna 210. If I go for twins I'd like a Piper PA-31 Navajo.
 
Thanks for all the help guys!!

My over all goal is to have my own Charter Company. If I go for Singles (I probably will) I'd like a Beech Bonanza/Cessna 210. If I go for twins I'd like a Piper PA-31 Navajo.


You do realize that you can't just get a commercial license, buy and airplane, and start flying charters don't you.
 
Yes I Know. But My over all goal is to one day have my own plane and fly charters.
 
Do NOT do this unless you are married to a very wealthy woman. That's the story of my local FBO.

God bless him he's persisted, it took 2.5 years for him to win a single pilot Air Carrier 135 certificate. During the whole time he has NOT been able to take a cent out of his FBO operation.

A few months ago in the dead of the icy midwest winter it was not clear that he was going to make it. Bless 'im.
 
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Timing is everything in a flying career. Networking is probably a very close second.

Even if you want to do charter in your own company, this statement nails it.

The degree of difficulty of obtaining a single pilot 135 certificate is very FSDO dependent, but it won't be easy in any case. I believe you need 1200 hrs min. to do 135; soooo you've got 1192 to go. Plenty of time to plan if this is the route you want to go.
 
I am a twin guy,.. I was lucky that a friend of mine owned an Aztec and he was a CFII. I got to log a quick 100 hrs ME very cheap!

Flying a twin,.. they fly just like a single.. until you lose an engine and then things get a bit more busy.

I would much rather lose an engine in my twin,.. I may go down at 50ft/min or so until I reach the single engine service ceiling. You lose an engine in a single,... You are going down! Just pick your landing spot.

The biggest thing is to stay current and ahead of the aircraft. If I wait a week or two,.. You can really tell in a twin. I think "twin flyers" should fly once a week to stay current.

In the end, it all boils down to money! If you want to get a charter style twin,.. it will cost you BIG time,.. to fly a PA31, your looking at ~45gal/hr and maintenance cost enough to choke a horse!

The biggest problem with piston twins are they usually owned by people that can't afford them. They fix things when they have too. If they can afford them,.. they usually move into turbine such as a King Air. (Now your burning 70gal/hr! and engine overhauls start at $125,000 each!)

I recommend you find a buddy like I did or purchase an older twin to get your time built up.

There has been MANY people make a small fortune in the charter business,.... they just started with a large fortune!,......LOL
 
So other than Charter Piloting, What else is there? Ag Piloting was my First chose, but with farm lands shrinking I was told by two Ag Pilots my dad welds for now and then that it's very hard to get in too. I don't want to be an ATP. Pushing an auto-pilot button and sitting back has never interested me.

I've thought about Bush Piloting but I believe I read it's the 3rd most dangerous job in America with like 1 out of 8 pilots dying in a 30 year career.

What else is there?
 
Do Ag. You'll get in. It's just fiercely competitive, with some guys horning in on other territories just to keep their Walthers and PT6's fed.
 
I bought my Aztec in January and have about 100 hours in it now, maybe a bit more at the rate I've been flying.

Maybe it's the twin that I fly, but I don't find single engine ops that difficult, and I don't really get the problems that people claim to have. I think mostly they're just afraid of it. You do need to be proficient in single engine flight and know what you need to do.

Tim gave the typical path, and I think that's the way to go. It's what I did, and it's worked pretty well for me. That said, the whole charter business seems to not work out that great for a number of people. You're probably better off getting a "real" job that can support your flying hobby.

I love twins, I don't think there's anything like them. Definitely get the rating. As someone who knew from hour 1 that I wanted to fly twins, I'd agree that the best way to go is to get your private and instrument in the standard trainers, then move up to a complex of some sort and build time, then get your commercial and commercial multi. I'm currently working on the flight instructor ratings.

The main thing I'd encourage you to do is go out and get experience flying different kinds of planes in different kinds of conditions. The more you fly (and the more unique types of trips you fly) the more you learn that makes you more useful as a pilot and more valuable as an instructor. One of the reasons I wasn't really rushing on my instructor rating was I wanted to get to the point where I actually had some valuable experience to pass on to my students. At 370-380 hours having done the sorts of flying I've done, I'm beginning to think I've got something useful to provide my students. Too many instructors just want to build time.
 
It all started when I was leaving a Flight Lesson and a Twin Engine plane flew over with an awesome, deep, Throaty sound to it (what Twin has that kind of sound?).

Quite a few of them, actually. Anything that has a pair of large 6-cylinder engines will probably make what you could call a "throaty" sound. :yes:


1. Once I get my ASEL PPL How hard will it be to get my Multi-Engine License??

Depends how much money you have. :yes:

Seriously, once you really know your way around an airplane, the multi rating isn't too tough. I got mine in a weekend, and many others have as well. Being good and proficient, however, requires that you fly twins often, and they're expensive! In many cases, the airplane alone will be around $300/hr to rent, and instruction can cost another $50-75 (most FBO's charge more for advanced training). For me to rent the local twin costs $299, plus $50 for the instructor, plus tax. That's over $360/hr, which equates to SIX DOLLARS A MINUTE. I'm pretty sure it's literally cheaper to light money on fire. And yes, even though I'm rated I still have to pay an instructor to ride along - Rental minimums on twins are not low, in our case you need either 100 hours multi (That's $36,000+!) or you need 700 hours total time (which I have) and 25 in type (which I don't). So, for the next 19.4 hours I have to pay an instructor, and even once I can rent it solo it's still $300 + tax per hour.

2. How much harder is it to fly a Twin?

When things are going well: Not much, but there are more systems to be monitoring on a twin. For example: Cabin heat is provided by a heater rather than engine heat, since there's no engine in front of you. One advantage is that you can start the heater as soon as you've started the engines and the cabin will warm up much faster than on a single. The disadvantage is that you have to pay attention and not overheat it, so you have to turn the heat off and leave the fan blower on for a few minutes before you land. That's just one example, and there are quite a few others. The bottom line is that you need to have enough flying experience that you can easily stay ahead of the airplane, even with all of the extra knobology.

As far as the learning, there's a few more book things to learn. For example, you'll have some new V-speeds: Vmc is the minimum airspeed at which you can control the airplane on one engine and is marked as a red radial line on the airspeed indicator (just like Vne, only at the other end of the speed range). You'll also learn about the factors that affect Vmc. Another important one is Vyse, which is the best rate of climb airspeed with one engine inoperative (Vy Single Engine is what it stands for). That one is marked with a blue radial line on the airspeed indicator. Some twins will also have numbers for Vxse (best angle of climb with OEI) and Vsse (Safe Single Engine, minimum speed at which you should practice maneuvers intentionally OEI). There are also some additional performance charts in the POH, such as an accelerate-stop distance chart. That's the distance it takes to accelerate to takeoff speed, lose an engine, and stop. And, of course, you'll need to learn about all those extra systems I mentioned.

When things aren't going well, ie engine failure: Some twins are easier than others to fly on one. The Apache that I got my multi rating in is pretty easy on one engine, as it has large vertical tail surfaces and low-powered engines. At the other end of the spectrum would be something like an Aerostar, which is a high-powered, fire-breathing turbocharged beast that has tiny vertical tail surfaces. Even the slightest mistake on an Aerostar engine failure will put you out of control in a hurry.

3. What is a good Twin to use for Charter Piloting?

Depends on the mission, like others have said. A good one to start with would be a Seneca or Baron, they're relatively easy and economical to fly compared to a lot of other twins, they're easy to obtain, and they have nice large back doors for your passengers to get in and out without clambering onto wings or over seats. However, they're best for shorter-range missions, as neither one is going to break 200 knots. They also won't carry a huge load.

Moving up the scale - The speed scale, anyway - The aforementioned Aerostar, once you've tamed it, is a little bigger and quite a bit faster. It's about as fast as you're going to get on a piston-engine airplane, I think. Alternatively, the Cessna 400-series airplanes will go reasonably fast and carry several people quite nicely.

Any higher than that, you're talking turbine. I've always been particularly fond of the King Air 200's. They're good-looking airplanes, they'll go >250 knots, and they can land on amazingly short strips for an airplane of that size which gives them great utility. Plus, they're very comfortable, without the vibration inherent in piston-powered airplanes.

Then you're into jets, which could mean anything from the forthcoming PJ's and existing VLJ's all the way up to the Boeing Business Jets.

IIRC you're pretty young still and have a ways to go - I think the landscape will change a lot by the time you're actually flying charters. Many of the airplanes I've mentioned above or similar are on the way out. Nobody has manufactured a successful cabin-class piston twin since the mid-1980's, and that means those that are out there are getting long in the tooth and VERY expensive to maintain. That means that they're on the way out. I would bet a lot of them will be replaced with small jets - Or you may get your wish to fly single-engine, as the single-engine turboprops like the TBM's and PC12's take over the market that used to be served by piston twins.

IMHO, you could do very well by following in the footsteps of Tony Condon. :yes:
 
I bought a twin with 60 hrs total time, I bought a Travel Air and did my multi rating in it, about the most economical twin to own and operate. Twins aren't more dificult to fly, but there are a few more decisions you have to make when things go wrong, and some of them are split second and counter intuitive, make the wrong one ore take too long and you die. It won't do for a charter plane, but you'll need a good few hours of multi time before you qualify with both the FAA and the insurance companies, so it's a good first plane. To start in the charter business, it depends on your location/climate and route. If I was in the NE or mountain west, a Cessna 421 is a good starter. In the flat lands and for the So Fla-SE- Bahamas trade, it's really hard to beat a Piper Chieftain.
 
I don't want to be an ATP. Pushing an auto-pilot button and sitting back has never interested me.
To each his own, I guess. But if you think that this is all an ATP does, you need to have a conversation with Captain Sullenberger. An autopilot driver could never have acquired the skill and judgement to do what he did.

Have you considered flying for the military? The CIA? The FBI? The Park Service? State Governments? Major corporations?

-Skip
 
I have to admit... Captain Sullenberger is one heck of a Pilot!!

I have thought about the military. But I have a few minor spinal problems that would limit me. What all could one do flying for The CIA, The FBI, The Park Service, State Governments, or Major corporations?
 
What all could one do flying for The CIA, The FBI, The Park Service, State Governments, or Major corporations?
I don't know. The way to find out is to start networking. This board and others are a good start, but only a start. You have to talk face to face with everyone!

-Skip
 
The one your employer pays you to fly...
Haha, good one! That brings up a good point. If you are thinking of getting into charter (or really any kind of business) it's probably a good thing to go work for someone first so you can see what is involved on someone else's dime before plunging in.
 
I plan to do that. My CFI is going to start chartering this month maybe. So maybe he will put in a good word for me one day. rofl
 
Da nephew worked at an FBO that did charter flights (A lot of organ transplant flights using King Airs) for several years while he worked on getting the commercial /multi / etc. ratings - since they knew him he got a right seat job with a lot fewer hours than most...

This is the same path the just out of college instructor I used for my IFR rating. Took him about nine months from green instructor with 1 student to right seat in a King Air.
 
I bought a twin with 60 hrs total time, I bought a Travel Air and did my multi rating in it, about the most economical twin to own and operate. Twins aren't more dificult to fly, but there are a few more decisions you have to make when things go wrong, and some of them are split second and counter intuitive, make the wrong one ore take too long and you die. It won't do for a charter plane, but you'll need a good few hours of multi time before you qualify with both the FAA and the insurance companies, so it's a good first plane. To start in the charter business, it depends on your location/climate and route. If I was in the NE or mountain west, a Cessna 421 is a good starter. In the flat lands and for the So Fla-SE- Bahamas trade, it's really hard to beat a Piper Chieftain.

If he gets a 421, he should not only be married to a rich woman but his brother-in-law should be a mechanic. They can be hangar queens....I flew for an outfit that had an A and two Cs, and my only unanticipated inflight shutdown and feather was in the 421A.

Bob Gardner
 
There has been MANY people make a small fortune in the charter business,.... they just started with a large fortune!,......LOL



One of my favorite quotes from Warren Buffett was the best way to make a million dollars in the airline business is to take one billion dollars and buy and airline, and then you will make a million dollars....just a little humor because I know all of us who love aviation, and the ones of us who want to make it a profession are feeling the strains throughout.
 
To each his own, I guess. But if you think that this is all an ATP does, you need to have a conversation with Captain Sullenberger. An autopilot driver could never have acquired the skill and judgement to do what he did.

Sully was a glider pilot and a fighter pilot before he was an Airbus pilot, though - And I bet he did a lot of button-pushing and sitting back, until the goose **** hit the turbofan! ;)
 
Thanks for all the help guys!!

My over all goal is to have my own Charter Company. If I go for Singles (I probably will) I'd like a Beech Bonanza/Cessna 210. If I go for twins I'd like a Piper PA-31 Navajo.

Then what you want to do is get a job (even part time) behind the counter at an existing charter company - keep your eyes and ears open and learn what happens on the business side. Also you will be able to make contacts that you will need later on. It could end up being a good place to start on the flying as well.

There is a lot more to a charter business than just flying and you will have to learn about all of it. I would also suggest that you get a degree in business.
 
If he gets a 421, he should not only be married to a rich woman but his brother-in-law should be a mechanic. They can be hangar queens....I flew for an outfit that had an A and two Cs, and my only unanticipated inflight shutdown and feather was in the 421A.

Bob Gardner

No doubt, a 421 can be a hangar queen, but it doesn't have to be. The ones that sit a lot, yep. The ones in daily service and flown by someone who cares and has educated themselves on handling geared engines, not so bad.
 

BTW, here's a pic of the rear doors on the Baron:

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Thanks for the pic!!! That red interior really stands out lol.
 
Snag, your think'n ahead and that is great, but at your age you should be look'n for the next "piece", know what I mean? Relax and have fun. HS & college are some of the best times you'll ever have, so have them. Let the chips fall. You have plenty of time to make good decisions, now is the time that you usually learn the wrong ones.

Live, Snag.:thumbsup:

Look'n forward to the next lesson update!

just my opinion. take care.
 
Once women get in the way, toys become increasingly difficult. That goes for dating as well. Several times now I haven't completed projects because of girls. Besides, I'm convinced that my Aztec is cheaper than my ex-fiancee. There's plenty of time left to find women - but once you find a woman, planes may have to go by the wayside.

Stick to planes. ;)
 
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