Treat minor filiform corrosion

Thy do have copy rights ya know. or maybe you didn't.
Again you make stupid statements you have no idea about.
Tom- It's ironic about your comment about "stupid comments" above when I see you did the same thing with your statement about copyright. I also remember how you called ammonia an acid.

You really should look up "Fair use doctrine", which allows use of a portion of the material for the sort of commentary we do in these threads.
 
Even if you do cite the source, the entire content can't be copied. But the pertinent portions may be quoted.
 
The steel fasteners were required to be installed wet. Know what that means?

Nope. I have never used 870, 890, 1422, etc in prepackaged 3.5/6 ounce mixpak tubes or a pneumatic sealant gun ever.

50 gram kits are really nice for my personal projects but awfully expensive that way.

I have never used mastinox jointing compound (banned from use by Boeing on anything) before.

:D
 
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As has already been mentioned, corrosion will happen, we can only attempt to reduce and prevent it. This conversation is based on my opinion that using nonmetallic tools to address corrosion is a better idea than using a dissimilar metal. I still stand by that. I bought off an external fuselage skin repair on an MD-10 last night. The steel fasteners were required to be installed wet. Know what that means?
You contradict your self. You sited the 43-13 many times in this thread, yet you didn't realize the abrasives use there are for the most part Aluminum Oxide.
You've advocated blending thin sheet, how did you expect to do that with out the usage of metal tools harder than the base metal being blended ?
I believe you need to show us the " NON-metalic" tools you speak of.
And you return to service on a MD-10 didn't happen without pictures.

There is a point here that almost every one missed. Every manual by the manufacturers are directed at the minimum standard acceptable for safe operation. you've directed us to use the manufacturers data for repairs many times. My question to you is. Why would you maintain any aircraft to a minimum standard.
For an example, Cessna lays out a acceptable repair for the wing spar in the 100 series aircraft, When that data is presented to your ASI, for approval on a 337, when they sign it it becomes acceptable to do that repair. ME? I go the extra mile and simply replace the entire spar.
So remember when you advocate the use of repair data you are simply telling folks they can maintain to a minimum standard.
 
The general consensus here is; That is an answer of convenience if ever there was one. My co-worker, IA, says that older piper manuals aren't copywrited, as is evident by the one I linked. Personally, I don't recall seeing a manufacturer copywrite on any manuals.
That proves you are not a TData customer.
 
Nope. I have never used 870, 890, 1422, etc in prepackaged 3.5/6 ounce mixpak tubes or a pneumatic sealant gun ever.

50 gram kits are really nice for my personal projects but awfully expensive that way.

I have never used mastinox jointing compound (banned from use by Boeing on anything) before.

:D

Most of the time it simply means the fastener was dipped in paint, prior to being installed. The Navy has been doing that since they bought their first sea plane.
Doesn't matter, I don't believe it's copywrited, but if it were, 99.99% of aircraft mechanics wouldn't give a ****.
Pretty much got that right. most go by 50-60 year old processes. you included.
 
You contradict your self. You sited the 43-13 many times in this thread, yet you didn't realize the abrasives use there are for the most part Aluminum Oxide.
There is a point here that almost every one missed. Every manual by the manufacturers are directed at the minimum standard acceptable for safe operation. you've directed us to use the manufacturers data for repairs many times. My question to you is. Why would you maintain any aircraft to a minimum standard.
For an example, Cessna lays out a acceptable repair for the wing spar in the 100 series aircraft, When that data is presented to your ASI, for approval on a 337, when they sign it it becomes acceptable to do that repair. ME? I go the extra mile and simply replace the entire spar.
So remember when you advocate the use of repair data you are simply telling folks they can maintain to a minimum standard.
You must have missed it.
I'd remove the corrosion with Scotchbrite and/or an aluminum oxide type abrasive.
Show me my contradiction. Aluminum oxide abrasive used on aluminum are not dissimilar metals. The fact that I prefer Scotchbright, changes nothing.

You think you know more than manufacturers. Minimum acceptible standard has a margin of safety built in.

And I'm sure your "extra mile" statement contradicts what you've previously posted and replacing skins.
 
Most of the time it simply means the fastener was dipped in paint, prior to being installed. The Navy has been doing that since they bought their first sea plane.

Pretty much got that right. most go by 50-60 year old processes. you included.

Wrong. It could be either primer or sealant specified for installing wet.

The difference is; the processes we use are approved.
 
"Why would you maintain any aircraft to a minimum standard."

Isn't the aircraft owner responsible for maintaining his aircraft?

If he wants me to replace the entire spar, I can do that as long as I have the tooling and information to ensure that it ends up being airworthy maintenance. If he wants me to repair the spar as per instructions already accepted by Cessna, I can do that too and happily sign it off, knowing that it meets minimum standards. If he wants me to run to Home Depot and get some 2x4's and deck screws and repair his spar using those, sure I could do that, but I wouldn't - it would not meet the minimum standards. If he wants me to repair his spar, I can give him options that could vary from an AC43.13 based repair, to a Cessna MM accepted repair, to a DER approved repair, to replacing the entire spar, to replacing the entire wing. Some are easier or harder for me to perform, some are cheaper or more expensive to the owner, but they would all supposedly end up returning the aircraft back to an airworthy state. Deck screws and 2x4's wouldn't make the cut! ;)

Which option would you choose as an owner? Which would I advocate to the owner? I think it all depends!
 
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"Why would you maintain any aircraft to a minimum standard."

Isn't the aircraft owner responsible for maintaining his aircraft?

If he wants me to replace the entire spar, I can do that as long as I have the tooling and information to ensure that it ends up being airworthy maintenance. If he wants me to repair the spar as per instructions already accepted by Cessna, I can do that too and happily sign it off, knowing that it meets minimum standards. If he wants me to run to Home Depot and get some 2x4's and deck screws and repair his spar using those, sure I could do that, but I wouldn't - it would not meet the minimum standards. If he wants me to repair his spar, I can give him options that could vary from an AC43.13 based repair, to a Cessna MM accepted repair, to a DER approved repair, to replacing the entire spar, to replacing the entire wing. Some are easier or harder for me to perform, some are cheaper or more expensive to the owner, but they would all supposedly end up returning the aircraft back to an airworthy state. Deck screws and 2x4's wouldn't make the cut! ;)

Which option would you choose as an owner? Which would I advocate to the owner? I think it all depends!
Most owners trust the A&P to give them the best safest repair. Patching some thing or replacing the work in evolved is less to replace.
 
Wrong. It could be either primer or sealant specified for installing wet.

The difference is; the processes we use are approved.
Primer = paint. that is what happens in most light aircraft we don't see sealants very much. Plus we don't see most repairs requiring any thing like that.
You say wrong? then say you use primer, that's funny.
 
Most owners trust the A&P to give them the best safest repair. Patching some thing or replacing the work in evolved is less to replace.
More like: When a repair is beyond the scope of your shop's ability, you suggest replacement... besides, it's on their dime.
 
More like: When a repair is beyond the scope of your shop's ability, you suggest replacement... besides, it's on their dime.
Nothing in GA is beyond the A&Ps ability. Or had you forgotten that is what the certificate is for.
It's just a matter of having the right tools.
 
"Why would you maintain any aircraft to a minimum standard."

Isn't the aircraft owner responsible for maintaining his aircraft?

If he wants me to replace the entire spar, I can do that as long as I have the tooling and information to ensure that it ends up being airworthy maintenance. If he wants me to repair the spar as per instructions already accepted by Cessna, I can do that too and happily sign it off, knowing that it meets minimum standards. If he wants me to run to Home Depot and get some 2x4's and deck screws and repair his spar using those, sure I could do that, but I wouldn't - it would not meet the minimum standards. If he wants me to repair his spar, I can give him options that could vary from an AC43.13 based repair, to a Cessna MM accepted repair, to a DER approved repair, to replacing the entire spar, to replacing the entire wing. Some are easier or harder for me to perform, some are cheaper or more expensive to the owner, but they would all supposedly end up returning the aircraft back to an airworthy state. Deck screws and 2x4's wouldn't make the cut! ;)

Which option would you choose as an owner? Which would I advocate to the owner? I think it all depends!
Almost always the replacement of the entire wing is cost effective.
 
You must have missed it..
I didn't miss this. AC43,13-1b chapter 6, para 91-f look it up.

For those who didn't look it up.

f. Do not abrade or scratch any surface unless it is an authorized procedure. If sur- faces are accidentally scratched, the damage should be assessed and action taken to remove thescratchandtreatthearea.

Now Glen can show us the Cessna / Piper authorized procedure to remove the Al-Clad coating.
 
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Nothing in GA is beyond the A&Ps ability. Or had you forgotten that is what the certificate is for.
It's just a matter of having the right tools.

WOW!

I have seen lots of below minimum standard work performed by qualified people with the right tools. The right tool for the right job is only part of the overall equation.

Ability has nothing to do with the license. Certificated mechanics may never drive a rivet in the field, yet they may inspect thousands each day and certify that they are airworthy (eg: Boeing, Cessna, etc).

This has made the rounds during human factors training.
http://www.aginggeneralaviation.org/personalmaintenanceminimums.aspx
 
I didn't miss this. AC43,13-1b chapter 6, para 91-f look it up.

For those who didn't look it up.

f. Do not abrade or scratch any surface unless it is an authorized procedure. If sur- faces are accidentally scratched, the damage should be assessed and action taken to remove thescratchandtreatthearea.

Take a closer look at scratches in the pictures of your project you've posted
 
Take a closer look at scratches in the pictures of your project you've posted
The scratches you see are on paint. not aluminum. any others were there prior to cleaning. I NEVER use any abrasives Like you do.

You forget or you ignore the fact this old aircraft has over 6k TT. and this is what the bilge looked like prior to getting cleaned
 

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WOW!

I have seen lots of below minimum standard work performed by qualified people with the right tools. The right tool for the right job is only part of the overall equation.

Ability has nothing to do with the license. Certificated mechanics may never drive a rivet in the field, yet they may inspect thousands each day and certify that they are airworthy (eg: Boeing, Cessna, etc).

This has made the rounds during human factors training.
http://www.aginggeneralaviation.org/personalmaintenanceminimums.aspx
YGTBSM how do you believe we pass a practical to get the A&P? pretty much all about ability.
 
How long will they take to remove enough metal on a .020" skin to be beyond use.

Chemical removal of the corrosion and its products is always better than wearing away the base metal.
Your chemical removal method leaves pitting. It's evident in your pictures. That's unacceptable per AC 43.13-1B, Chapter 6, Section 7, 6-115 b.
 
Your chemical removal method leaves pitting. It's evident in your pictures. That's unacceptable per AC 43.13-1B, Chapter 6, Section 7, 6-115 b.
this proves that you don't know the pits you see are the results of the corrosion. the al-clad is not removed trying to hide them like you do, with your disks.

Which is what the 1b says not to do. 6-91f

Your disks remove the protection that is there and only make matters worse.
10 seconds on .020 skin you'll have a hole to patch.
 
The scratches you see are on paint. not aluminum. any others were there prior to cleaning. I NEVER use any abrasives Like you do.

You forget or you ignore the fact this old aircraft has over 6k TT. and this is what the bilge looked like prior to getting cleaned
Bull. The scratches in the paint extend onto the metal. A stainless steel brush is obviously abrasive. Pfffft. I work on some aircraft nearing 90k TT.
 
Bull. The scratches in the paint extend onto the metal. A stainless steel brush is obviously abrasive. Pfffft. I work on some aircraft nearing 90k TT.
Now you are seeing what you want to see.
the heavies you work on have thick skins to be a pressure vessels. you can afford to grind away the corrosion we can't.
 
this proves that you don't know the pits you see are the results of the corrosion. the al-clad is not removed trying to hide them like you do, with your disks.

Which is what the 1b says not to do. 6-91f

Your disks remove the protection that is there and only make matters worse.
10 seconds on .020 skin you'll have a hole to patch.

Then, where you left pits should have been patched or replaced.

Those discs come in numerous grades. You can polish aluminum with some.

Talking about **** you have no clue about.
 
demonstrating once more you do not know how to use the platers brush.
if the platers brush left scratches so much for leaving dis-similar metal contamination. brinnell hardness understand it can't be your strong suit.
 
Then, where you left pits should have been patched or replaced.

Those discs come in numerous grades. You can polish aluminum with some.

Talking about **** you have no clue about.
I guess that is why there are about 20 of them in my welding kit.
why would that area require replacement or patching. How deep do you believe they are?
In over your head again. drawing conclusions with out facts - typical.
 
You can polish aluminum with some..
then that proves you don't know polishing is a process of removing metal. kinda why the rags used to polish turn black. and don't tell me the disk you use don't turn black too.
I'll take some pictures in the morning and show the folks.
 
Now you are seeing what you want to see.
the heavies you work on have thick skins to be a pressure vessels. you can afford to grind away the corrosion we can't.
Your project is a semi-monocoque, right? That means the skin is primary structure, or PSE. I believe AC 43.13-1B addresses PSE and doesn't differentiate between pressurized and non-pressurized.

So, you're forced to replace skins... SFW

I'm seeing what's evident in the pictures you posted.
 
then that proves you don't know polishing is a process of removing metal. kinda why the rags used to polish turn black. and don't tell me the disk you use don't turn black too.
I'll take some pictures in the morning and show the folks.
Shocking revelation. You do that, I'll laugh more.
 
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YGTBSM how do you believe we pass a practical to get the A&P? pretty much all about ability.

Nope, I am not. Ability demonstrated in 1970 to get a certificate does not equate to ability in 2017 (ie: lack of recent experience in the task). Same with flying an IFR approach, performing surgery, driving a car, riding a bike, etc. Which is why I see dumped rivets, smiled rivets, cold solder joints, lockwire backwards, etc.

I am human - I need to learn to perform tasks initially and then keep performing them in order to remain current.
 
demonstrating once more you do not know how to use the platers brush.
Demonstrating you're a what? It's in your pictures. One picture shows the nice orange paint and another picture shows the abraded aluminum and paint, with scratches extending from the paint onto the aluminum, elongated fastener holes, scribe lines, along with pitting remaining, .
 
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