Transportation secretary says pilots should lose their licenses if they don't follow air traffic controllers' instructions.

I just find it funny when people in a group where there is almost zero impact from making mistakes - pols, news people, actors - toss out random statements about "holding people accountable" where those people are already working in an industry where they actually have to do things correctly - pilots, doctors, engineers.

Nobody sees the irony in it, because those people who can actually do things for a living are doing things, not standing behind a podium or news desk talking about things that they almost never have a capability to understand.
 
My first impression of this was how stupid it was leadership wise. You’re new in the position, new in the industry and you make an uninformed sweeping statement that proves you shouldn’t be in a leadership role. Very poor start.

I expect he will become isolated from the aviation community because he doesn’t understand the culture, which will close in behind him. Humans make mistakes. If we fired everyone that made a mistake, we’d have every pilot on unemployment and no aviation industry.
 
Racerx said:
If he said these airmen should get a 709 ride, would anyone complain?
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If he said it as a general statement, I would. How many airman should we ground waiting on a limited number of FAA examiners to give new check rides?

It’s a great way to get people to hide mistakes and decrease safety.
 
Racerx said:
If he said these airmen should get a 709 ride, would anyone complain?
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The vast majority of the public wouldn't know what a 709 ride is. They do know what a license is. So remember he is a politician and they speak in terms that the vast majority of the people understand.
 
jayhawk74 said:
The vast majority of the public wouldn't know what a 709 ride is. They do know what a license is. So remember he is a politician and they speak in terms that the vast majority of the people understand.
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Agreed. How about, “These pilots should be grounded until they receive more training and can demonstrate competency?”
 
Pilot99B said:
Lol, I mean can’t revoke a pilots license since a “pilots license” doesn’t technically exist in the first place. Check ride 101
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But if he'd said "certificate," you'd have agreed with him. :rolleyes:

Pilot99B said:
Am I the only one who thinks that the certificates of the FlexJet pilots should be revoked?
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I'm still looking on the airport charts for a place marked as "the tarmac"! Damned TV newsies.
 
After reading that comment, my first thought is the almost complete reversal of the current “kinder gentler “ FAA approach with conversation or retraining. That IMO could also cause a reluctance to even do an ASRS. I’m hoping calmer heads prevail.
 
Initial Fix said:
After reading that comment, my first thought is the almost complete reversal of the current “kinder gentler “ FAA approach with conversation or retraining. That IMO could also cause a reluctance to even do an ASRS. I’m hoping calmer heads prevail.
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Are you talking part 91 or 121/135 as these do not have not much in common beside utilizing the same laws of physics …
 
To paraphrase a famous guy, a leader doesn't search for consensus, they set the tone for it. By that measurement and a few others, I don't think we've had a leader in more than 30 years.
 
Back around 1997 while on Active Duty in the Air Force, the AF Chief of Staff, Gen Fogleman, promoted some very sound ideas. “No rule through fear” was a linchpin.

Plus three rules:
Integrity First
Service before Self
Excellence in all we do

A very inspiring message - and significant impact on my life.

I miss those days…
 
Llewtrah381 said:
Back around 1997 while on Active Duty in the Air Force, the AF Chief of Staff, Gen Fogleman, promoted some very sound ideas. “No rule through fear” was a linchpin.

Plus three rules:
Integrity First
Service before Self
Excellence in all we do

A very inspiring message - and significant impact on my life.

I miss those days…
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Integrity before all. What a concept.
 
FlightmechH3 said:
Pol appointees are idiots. I stood next to the former Sec of Transportation ( Red Cross during hurricane) during Hurricane Andrew and said some choice comments about this s$%#show and the people in charge. I did not recognize her but she made sure to turn and look at me.

Her qualifications were being married to Robert Dole.
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It seems that SecTrans is regarded as an unimportant cabinet position much of the time. She wasn't the only one who got it by being married to someone powerful (Dole, Chao), and it often seems like SecTrans is the one cabinet appointee from the other party, used to appease Senators about someone else they'd rather not confirm (Mineta, LaHood), or a convenient place to stash someone as a consolation prize (Buttigieg).

Ed Haywood said:
I guess I'll be the lone dissenter. Depending on the severity of the infraction, and the degree of willfulness, I don't have a problem with certificate loss being on the table.
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It already is. :rolleyes:

But if you really want safety, there needs to be a culture of open reporting, as opposed to a culture of punishment.
 
Llewtrah381 said:
Back around 1997 while on Active Duty in the Air Force, the AF Chief of Staff, Gen Fogleman, promoted some very sound ideas. “No rule through fear” was a linchpin.

Plus three rules:
Integrity First
Service before Self
Excellence in all we do

A very inspiring message - and significant impact on my life.

I miss those days…
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Ron Fogleman was great CSAF who lived Service before Self.

 
Llewtrah381 said:
Back around 1997 while on Active Duty in the Air Force, the AF Chief of Staff, Gen Fogleman, promoted some very sound ideas. “No rule through fear” was a linchpin.

Plus three rules:
Integrity First
Service before Self
Excellence in all we do

A very inspiring message - and significant impact on my life.

I miss those days…
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I worked a lot with Gen Fogleman when he was CinC TRANSCOM/AMC and I was on the C-17 program. The finest officer it was my pleasure to work with and for in my 32.5 years.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
It seems that SecTrans is regarded as an unimportant cabinet position much of the time. She wasn't the only one who got it by being married to someone powerful (Dole, Chao), and it often seems like SecTrans is the one cabinet appointee from the other party, used to appease Senators about someone else they'd rather not confirm (Mineta, LaHood), or a convenient place to stash someone as a consolation prize (Buttigieg).


It already is. :rolleyes:

But if you really want safety, there needs to be a culture of open reporting, as opposed to a culture of punishment.
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Elaine Chao had previously served as Deputy administrator of the maritime administration. Then as chairwoman of the Federal Maritime Commission. After which, George HW Bush nominated her for deputy secretary of transportation. That was in 1989. 4 years before she married McConnell.

She was then nominated in 2016 for transportation Secretary.
 
flyingcheesehead said:
But if you really want safety, there needs to be a culture of open reporting, as opposed to a culture of punishment.
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I'd suggest a modification: But if you really want safety, the culture needs to include open reporting. we need more than just open reporting.
 
bentmettle said:
Isn't the point that it's already on the table?

He doesn't get a cookie for mindlessly parroting steps for generically fixing any workplace problem. More workers. More Pay. More Computers. Am I in charge of something now?

Except, if you've read, or lived, the Mythical Man Month, you know more workers doesn't always fix stuff, either...

My medical still doesn't fit in my wallet.
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Yes, of course, for some types of problems, more people doesn't mean faster. But that's a creation issue, these are operational jobs. So, if you said, hey, add 500 more people to redesign airspace, I would not expect it to go faster, but 500 people sitting out in a bunch of different towers and radar centers that can now take smaller slices of traffic or airspace, does seem like it will help.

Our local airport is going ATC zero a few times this month due to staffing, for example, so I don't think we're drowning in air traffic controllers.

I would like to see them raise the maximum entry age from 30 to 35 or 40 as I think we could get more ex military to join then, which would help them find more qualified folks, faster.
 
and you ground them by....

temporary, emergency certificate revocation? I don't know what's involved BEFORE a 709 ride. How do they make you "not fly" before you pass the 709?

I would like to learn academically, not in practice. :)
Half Fast said:
Agreed. How about, “These pilots should be grounded until they receive more training and can demonstrate competency?”
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TCABM said:
Can the FAA initiate .mil certificate action against the IP of record if the yet-to-be rated student f’s it away?
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No. But imagine when the new TransSec finds out that military pilots don't have "licenses"...
 
Dana said:
No. But imagine when the new TransSec finds out that military pilots don't have "licenses"...
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A phrase that he'll just love is "due regard"
 
I think for many outside the aviation community, the principles of a Safety Culture would be a little difficult to understand on the surface. I'd bet there are many stories of people thinking the involved individual got a few too many chances.
 
PastZTL said:
I think for many outside the aviation community, the principles of a Safety Culture would be a little difficult to understand on the surface. I'd bet there are many stories of people thinking the involved individual got a few too many chances.
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That’s how we got to requiring both pilots in an airline cockpit needing an ATP certificate.
 
Pilot99B said:
In light of all the recent incidents, what does POA have to say about this?

www.nbcnews.com

Transportation secretary says pilot error played a role in majority of recent plane crashes and close calls

In an interview with NBC News, Sean Duffy said pilots should lose their licenses if they don't follow air traffic controllers' instructions.
www.nbcnews.com www.nbcnews.com
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Yeah, he should be the 'deep pockets' target for any lawsuits arising from a controller causing CFIT or something. This is why the PIC is allowed to override a command from ATC. Jeez...and this is what happens when a JA gets into office.
 
Todays WSJ has a story about the 2021 close call of an American Airlines jet and the military helicopter carrying the then Vice President Harris.
Controller released the AA while a traffic stop was in place, and apparently tower short staffed.
Investigation resulted in 10 reprimands, and and also found that go home early permissions had been given with some frequency, without loss of scheduled pay.
Short staffing and go home early decisions were elevated mandatorily, to be approved by facility manager.

Lets wait and see how many of the chain of command in the 2025 short staffing incident lose their license/certificate/ other important paper/plastic that is a prerequisite to their employment in a tower.

Not holding my breath.
 
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PastZTL said:
I think for many outside the aviation community, the principles of a Safety Culture would be a little difficult to understand on the surface. I'd bet there are many stories of people thinking the involved individual got a few too many chances.
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Those are the same people who go on neighborhood social media groups and yell that drivers should suffer multi-thiusand dollar fines and lifetime license revocation for speeding and other common violations, and then when they get a ticket the police are road pirates.

And one of them, apparently, managed to get himself a government job.
 
These out-of-context, soundbite articles are designed to generate clicks for ad revenue, nothing more. I'm surprised anyone here actually cares about this. "Journalists" of today are literally paid based on the traffic their articles (and headlines) generate.
 
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