Transponder upgrade, not thrilled with shop labor rates

jd21476

jd21476

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jd21476
I took my plane to a local shop, Instrument Overhaul at Gillespie Field in El Cajon, CA, because my transponder wasn't getting a Mode C. I recently bought it from an avionics shop off of Ebay and they guaranteed it for 90 days. I figured my encoder must be bad.

While it was there I was going to have the shop also move it to my center stack as opposed to the far right of my dash.

The shop comes back and says they bench tested my transponder and it is faulty and not the encoder. He tells me that he has a used Garmin GTX 330 that he can sell me for $1100. He says they already removed the DME from the center stack and had pulled the old transponder so its probably better to install something now and he can guarantee this transponder.

We agree on $1k for the transponder and he says it will take about 1/2 a day to install or roughly 4 hours. By the end of the day I haven't heard back and when I call I am told the tech is leaving in 15 minutes but Ill have to leave it over the weekend to be finished on Monday.

Today I call at 10 am and they are supposedly just testing it. Then I call at noon and I am told it is complete. I am told it took 8 hours to install plus the test which is $145 and that they only charged me for 6.5 hours. So Im roughly $1800 into this and was expecting to be $1400ish.

What really irks me is that the shop just assumed it was an open check book and never bothered to call when the labor was going beyond their quote.

Does all of this seem unreasonable?
 
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Well that makes me feel better. I didnt want to get taken for a ride.
 
Well, I would’ve sold you my 330 for $500...;)
 
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jd21476 said:
Well that makes me feel better. I didnt want to get taken for a ride.
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I guess I could have displayed a little more empathy for them not meeting your expectations, but the truth is that avionics work is expensive (for good reason) and the time required can never be predicted with accuracy. Perhaps they could have spent more time communicating with you, but then they would be spending less time on your (and other peoples) problems.
 
Welcome to aviation, doesn't sound bad.
When I did my ADS-B upgrade I really got f**ked. They didn't realize my old KMA 20 (?) audio pane wouldn't communicate with the new GTX345, and radios quit working when they hooked the audio from the new transponder to the KMA 20. Long story short, They said my second navcom was bad, ended up with a new Garmin GMA 345 audio panel, and now my autopilot doesn't work.
 
I'm not an avionics tech. I did used to do lots of commercial and residential electrical remodeling work. What I learned very quickly was you really don't know what you've got until you open it up. Estimates, made in good faith, with the best information available, could get blown out of the the water very quickly. I strongly suspect that working on old airplanes with who knows what generation of installed avionics would be much the same, only more cramped.

That said, I'd expect a courtesy call to say "Hey! We've run ton some stuff and it's taking longer."
 
jd21476 said:
And that makes me feel worse...plus the fact that you have a Velocity...which I love those planes.
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I'm sure you could have bought a used 330 cheaper elsewhere. In fact, I have a 330 sitting right behind me that I removed a couple of years ago and asked a $1,000 for. I never got it and I would also take $300 for it now. But wasn't buying used part of your original problem? If you buy it from me for $300, I'm not going to install it and guarantee it for you. You can always get used parts cheaper somewhere, but is it always worth it? I don't think so. If the shop does good work and stands by it, then I wouldn't worry about it.
 
If someone tore my stack apart, then call me to say my transponder was bad on the bench, I'd be pizzed too!
 
jd21476 said:
And that makes me feel worse...plus the fact that you have a Velocity...which I love those planes.
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Well the Velocity isn’t doing to well on the Appareo. Should’ve done an ES upgrade I guess.
 
Do not feel bad. I had my 330 upgraded to ES. I had a 530W and 430W. Total bill was $3800 and I negotiated it to $2800 and they did not do anything else.
 
I know its all expensive I just have never used this shop before so I wanted to make sure I wasn't being taken advantage of. I don't mind paying but I don't like being ripped off but it sounds like they were fair so assuming it all looks good and works good then I'm ok with it.
 
If you already had a King 76a, 78a, or 76c, then you would have been much better off not going with the used Garmin transponder. You could have bought the new King KT-74 which is a digital Mode S transponder and it is plug compatible with the existing tray. You can buy those for about $2200. Your A&P could then have just slid in the new transponder and done the transponder test. The Trig 31 and the Avidyne transponder are also plug compatible. There should not be a requirement for a 337 since transponders are TSOed, so your A&P just records that he replaced your existing transponder with the new one. Some A&Ps like to upgrade your old coaxial cable with the newer RG-400 cable but the KT-74 will still work with old cable.
 
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kshaw said:
If you already had a King 76a, 78a, or 76c, then you would have been much better off not going with the used Garmin transponder. You could have bought the new King KT-74 which is a digital Mode S transponder and it is plug compatible with the existing tray. You can buy those for about $2200. Your A&P could then have just slid in the new transponder and done the transponder test. The Trig 31 and the Avidyne transponder are also plug compatible. There should not be a requirement for a 337 since transponders are TSOed, so your A&P just records that he replaced your existing transponder with the new one. Some A&Ps like to upgrade your old coaxial cable with the newer RG-400 cable but the KT-74 will still work with old cable.
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That's not entirely true. Most of them still need some wiring re-work for things like GPS signal input, squat switch or airspeed switch input, etc. It's not just "slide old one out, slide new one in." Pretty sure the install manuals also call for RG400 and a new antenna. We tried this on our Super Viking and it turned out to be much more complicated than advertised.
 
bradg33 said:
That's not entirely true. Most of them still need some wiring re-work for things like GPS signal input, squat switch or airspeed switch input, etc. It's not just "slide old one out, slide new one in." Pretty sure the install manuals also call for RG400 and a new antenna. We tried this on our Super Viking and it turned out to be much more complicated than advertised.
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Yes, it is true for a straight Mode-S installation which sounded like what the OP needed. At least, he made no mention of a 330-ES. If the KT-74 is also being used for an ADS-B out installation, then you are correct. In that case, it will need a serial connection to the GPS. The airspeed switch is no longer needed under the updated STC. You are correct that the RG-400 is required under STC but the old antenna can be used unless there are other problems requiring it to be changed.
 
kshaw said:
Yes, it is true for a straight Mode-S installation which sounded like what the OP needed. At least, he made no mention of a 330-ES. If the KT-74 is also being used for an ADS-B out installation, then you are correct. In that case, it will need a serial connection to the GPS. The airspeed switch is no longer needed under the updated STC. You are correct that the RG-400 is required under STC but the old antenna can be used unless there are other problems requiring it to be changed.
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That's fair, I assumed ADS-B was desired here.
 
kshaw said:
If you already had a King 76a, 78a, or 76c, then you would have been much better off not going with the used Garmin transponder. You could have bought the new King KT-74 which is a digital Mode S transponder and it is plug compatible with the existing tray. You can buy those for about $2200. Your A&P could then have just slid in the new transponder and done the transponder test. The Trig 31 and the Avidyne transponder are also plug compatible. There should not be a requirement for a 337 since transponders are TSOed, so your A&P just records that he replaced your existing transponder with the new one. Some A&Ps like to upgrade your old coaxial cable with the newer RG-400 cable but the KT-74 will still work with old cable.
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I wasnt as advanced to have King products. My plane came with a NARCO AT50 and I bought an AT165 so that I could easily just swap it out without going through changing out the tray and wiring but it turns out the AT165 was defective so I bit the bullet and swapped it all to Garmin because I got tired of messing with transponder issues.
 
So I flew home yesterday and my Mode C was not working again. This tells me that there was nothing wrong with my original transponder and the avionics shop just duped me in to buying theirs. I am out $2k now and still have the recurring Mode C issue.

Does the FAA have any protections against this sort of predatory practice....similar to the Bureau of Auto Repair?
 
I would head straight back and make them fix it. I think thats reasonable to expect from any legitimate business. In my business I have certainly offered this to my customers at great loss.
 
I did. Then when I went to check and see the status the owner told me to stop bitchin’ and that it looks like my encoder is bad. When I asked him how he was going to make it right, he just shrugged his shoulders. I took the plane an left. To be honest I didnt want him working on the plane anymore at that point.
This is Instrument Overhaul at Gillespie Field in El Cajon, CA

Im probably going to have to take him to court.
 
jd21476 said:
Does the FAA have any protections against this sort of predatory practice.
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No. But if they approved for return to service an unairworthy aircraft you had several options to pursue at that time. However, as soon as you left and took your "unairworthy" aircraft home all bets are off. As to whether they "duped" you I can not comment as we only have one side to this story posted.
 
There is no way they should NOT of been able to tell whether the original issue was the transponder or encoder IF they have the correct test equipment. I would go back to them and ask them why they could not diagnosed the original problem as an encoder problem if that was what the problem was.

Now, all that said, perhaps you had a transponder problem AND en encoder problem. When I has my 330ES installed, I also had to purchase a new digital encoder based upon the shops recommendation. The original was from 1979, so I had no problems paying the extra $250. The install cost (remove NARCO AT150, install 330ES and wire into my G430W) turned out to be $1800, but should of been $2500. The original estimate was $1100. We split the difference.
 
It looks like you and your avionics person are not highly compatible. It’s time for you to find a shop you can work with.
 
Sounds like a need for some empathy on both sides. If this was Reddit's AITA [1] then I'd probably vote ESH [2]

In addition to the old and brittle electronics hardware which are basically little balls of random entropy and hatefulness, the infinite tangle of white wiring behind the panel makes this job very unpredictable, and very prone to cost overrun, and usually for the stupidest and most irritating reasons. It's no excuse for the poor customer service you received, but I wasn't there, and I wonder if this is a case of "garbage in, garbage out" at work. The tone and threats laced in your posts make me think your installer might not enjoy your "direct, hands on" way of dealing with problems or people or disappointment.

Seriously, you might consider either observing or assisting on a "move this thing on my panel" job, you'd be amazed at the complication and nonsense involved.

Sorry your problem didn't get fixed in the first go. I try hard not to do avionics/panel work too far away from my home base for this reason. I have an "in" with a shop 4 hours away, and could basically have work done half price, and I still do my avionics stuff locally.



[1] "Am I the A-hole?" https://old.reddit.com/r/AITAFiltered/
[2] "Everybody Sucks Here"
 
Well, I guess bottomline I wont be back. I was warned about this shop from others at the airport but they were able to get me in quickly for the fix where another shop with good reviews had a 4 week wait.
 
It did for one flight and then stopped working which is the same thing my NARCO 165 did. This makes me think its my encoder which seems reasonable but the shop told me it wasnt my encoder it was the transponder, thats why I bought the new one from them and now I still have the issue.
 
jd21476 said:
It did for one flight and then stopped working which is the same thing my NARCO 165 did. This makes me think its my encoder which seems reasonable but the shop told me it wasnt my encoder it was the transponder, thats why I bought the new one from them and now I still have the issue.
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Sounds like it worked for the shop for one time and then stopped as well. Intermittent failures are the worst because they create all sorts of misdiagnoses.
 
schmookeeg said:
...Seriously, you might consider either observing or assisting on a "move this thing on my panel" job, you'd be amazed at the complication and nonsense involved....
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A hearty amen to that. Having "assisted" with the installation of a Stratus ESG and associated GPS antenna fairly recently (meaning, I did all of the work and my A&P laughed a lot and made sure I did it right), I can tell you that "move this thing on my panel" isn't even close to what most people think it is. I certainly learned a lot... and so did my back.

The OP's story is a difficult one. The initial part didn't seem out of line, price-wise, for the work done. If the encoder was at fault all along and not the transponder, then it would seem that an ethical shop would offer some compensation towards making things right, but there are so many variables that it's hard to know for sure what exactly DID happen. In any future avionics work I undertake, I will NOT be skipping the opportunity to upgrade whatever I can afford while I'm in there. In hindsight, especially after reading this story, I wish I had spent the extra couple hundred bucks to put in a new serial encoder during the Stratus ESG installation, although the AR850 is still chugging along fine.
 
MuseChaser said:
In any future avionics work I undertake, I will NOT be skipping the opportunity to upgrade whatever I can afford while I'm in there.
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That is exactly how i started with just the ADSB and ended up with half new stack thats probably more than what my plane is worth :p

wait, no, it started trying to get some cheap fuel and a busted avionics master bus relay
 
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