Traffic Pattern Requirements

Boy, we are a weird bunch.

But as long as we're engaged in this...

How about 45° right turn depicted here in order to enter the pattern?

550px-Airfield_traffic_pattern.svg.png
Heh. Just like in the AIM--it's drawn wrong. Dangerously so, I'd say. You should enter downwind mid-field not where aircraft in closed traffic are climbing and turning with the horizon below their nose (the horizon is where you're coming from with respect to them).

dtuuri
 
This is what I don't get. How can an OCCASIONAL ( When it is safer to do so due to night flight, weather, homes, emergency, etc) right turn to final from the opposite side be such a bad thing? Of course it is not. :no:

Well, people at a left traffic airport will be looking where they expect traffic to be, and that will not be where you are if you are making a right base-to-final turn. Occasional or not, it only takes once...
 
Boy, we are a weird bunch.

But as long as we're engaged in this...

How about 45° right turn depicted here in order to enter the pattern?

550px-Airfield_traffic_pattern.svg.png

I am paranoid about traffic around airports, so I almost always do a straight out departure and then turn on course a few miles out. Even if my destination is on the other side of the airport, I usually fly out and then make turns to keep the airport 3-5 miles away.
 
Boy, we are a weird bunch.

But as long as we're engaged in this...

How about 45° right turn depicted here in order to enter the pattern?

550px-Airfield_traffic_pattern.svg.png
As it says in the front of the book, the AIM shows you ways to comply with the rules, so the AIM picture and discussion on the 45-downwind entry is all you need to justify doing that. There's also the interpretation discussed above. OTOH, I have no doubt the FAA will find a way to hang any pilot they see doing that opposite side cloverleaf shown a few posts up even if the turns are all made in the "correct" direction.
 
OTOH, I have no doubt the FAA will find a way to hang any pilot they see doing that opposite side cloverleaf shown a few posts up even if the turns are all made in the "correct" direction.

If a pilot did that with other traffic in the pattern, I can believe that the FAA wouldn't have any trouble making a case for reckless operation so as to endanger the life or property of the other aircraft occupants. If the pattern were empty, I have my doubts.

In either case, I'm pretty sure hanging would not be involved unless they could make a case for murder.
 
If a pilot did that with other traffic in the pattern, I can believe that the FAA wouldn't have any trouble making a case for reckless operation so as to endanger the life or property of the other aircraft occupants. If the pattern were empty, I have my doubts.

In either case, I'm pretty sure hanging would not be involved unless they could make a case for murder.

Agreed - the FAA would have trouble making a case for reckless operation - even when other traffic is in the pattern. It depends on the facts specific to the case. Since the left turn reg does not apply to gliders, helicopters, parachutes (powered or unpowered), airships, and balloons, all those could be making legal and safe opposite pattern approaches. In the case of helicopters and powered parachutes the regulation explicitly requires they stay out of the way of airplanes. So simply being on a right pattern approach is not per se careless or reckless.
 

Wow - MacPherson outdid herself in quoting out of context to make a claim not supported by the regulation:
"The regulation itself contemplates that right turns may be necessary or required: "... in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right .... " 14 C.F .R. 91.126(b)(1)."​

Full context:
"(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

(2) Each pilot of a helicopter or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft. "​

If they "have long considered that this rule does not prohibit maneuvers necessary to safely enter the flow of traffic at the airport," then they need to make that a part of the regulation since the applicable paragraphs are prefaced with "Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport," and "When approaching to land at an airport ...." Both statements are arguably true when an airplane is on the 45 angle leg entry to the downwind leg.
 
If a pilot did that with other traffic in the pattern, I can believe that the FAA wouldn't have any trouble making a case for reckless operation so as to endanger the life or property of the other aircraft occupants. If the pattern were empty, I have my doubts.

In either case, I'm pretty sure hanging would not be involved unless they could make a case for murder.

In my case the pattern was empty, had been all day and was long after I landed. Did not matter. They even threw in "careless and reckless" for good measure.
 
I will finish with this.
Unless you are:
1. An aviation attorney
2. An FAA Safety Inspector
3. Have personal experience in a certain area
I would be very, very careful about telling pilots when the can ignore FAA regulations. Even then I would be careful- every safety inspector I know has said they probably would have done a right hand pattern in my scenario. None of that matters. The one safety inspector did not feel that way.
Follow the FARs and AIM and you won't get in trouble. It is that simple.
 
I'll even post it again, how's that?

Oh, and please call the Local FSDO and tell them you saw a guy in the pattern make a right hand turn. See how excited they get. :rolleyes:

You guys crack me up sometimes. :rofl:

I did it too! I did it too.!
The jails will be crowded now.:hairraise:
 
I did it too! I did it too.!
The jails will be crowded now.:hairraise:

Yeah, I'm laughing real hard after someone did just that and I got a suspension. As did another CFI friend of mine from the same FSDO. Ha, ha. It is really hilarious now trying to get insurance as a CFI with a violation on my record. Man, I can't tell you how funny it is when my clients' insurance companies say I can not be put on a policy with a violation. By the way, no insurance=no instruction. :rofl:
 
I'll even post it again, how's that?

Oh, and please call the Local FSDO and tell them you saw a guy in the pattern make a right hand turn. See how excited they get. :rolleyes:

You guys crack me up sometimes. :rofl:

You have how much experience as an aviation attorney? See my post above about how funny I think this subject is.
 
Wow - MacPherson outdid herself in quoting out of context to make a claim not supported by the regulation:
"The regulation itself contemplates that right turns may be necessary or required: "... in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right .... " 14 C.F .R. 91.126(b)(1)."​
Full context:
"(1) Each pilot of an airplane must make all turns of that airplane to the left unless the airport displays approved light signals or visual markings indicating that turns should be made to the right, in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right; and

(2) Each pilot of a helicopter or a powered parachute must avoid the flow of fixed-wing aircraft. "​
If they "have long considered that this rule does not prohibit maneuvers necessary to safely enter the flow of traffic at the airport," then they need to make that a part of the regulation
No, they don't, since the Administrative Procedures Act authorizes the FAA to issue these interpretations of its own rules, but even without that...
since the applicable paragraphs are prefaced with "Unless otherwise authorized or required, each person operating an aircraft on or in the vicinity of an airport," and "When approaching to land at an airport ...." Both statements are arguably true when an airplane is on the 45 angle leg entry to the downwind leg.
...the AIM clearly authorizes those opposite direction turns during a 45 entry.
 
In my case the pattern was empty, had been all day and was long after I landed. Did not matter. They even threw in "careless and reckless" for good measure.


Geez........... What in the hell did you do ????:dunno:
 
Wow - MacPherson outdid herself in quoting out of context to make a claim not supported by the regulation:
"The regulation itself contemplates that right turns may be necessary or required: "... in which case the pilot must make all turns to the right .... " 14 C.F .R. 91.126(b)(1)."​

I thought that reasoning was pretty convoluted.

Hence my ":dunno:"
 
No, they don't, since the Administrative Procedures Act authorizes the FAA to issue these interpretations of its own rules, but even without that...

The interpretation must not be plainly erroneous or inconsistent with the regulation. And per post-Mead cases, the APA does not seem to cover interpretation letters.

From http://www.mwe.com/publications/uniEntity.aspx?xpST=PublicationDetail&pub=6031
"In Christensen, the court noted the doctrine of Auer v. Robbins, 519 US452 (1997), which held that an agency’s interpretation (apparently without regard to the form of the interpretation) of its own regulation is "controlling unless plainly erroneous or inconsistent with the regulation," quoting Bowles v. Seminole Rock & Sand Co., 325 US 410, 414 (1945). However, in Mead, the court cited Martin v. OSHRC (CF&I Steel Corp.), 499 US 144, 157 (1991), which concerned an agency’s interpretation of its regulation, as exemplifying the giving of weight under Skidmore, as opposed to deference under Chevron."
And a few years later, from https://law.resource.org/pub/us/case/reporter/F3/357/357.F3d.632.02-1682.html
"Cases will arise involving informal agency actions that once received, but no longer receive, Chevron deference in the aftermath of Mead and Christensen. See Mead, 533 U.S. at 232, 121 S.Ct. 2164 ("nterpretive rules ... enjoy no Chevron status as a class."); compare Johnson City Med. Ctr. v. United States, 999 F.2d 973, 977 (6th Cir.1993) ("[T]his Court accords deference to Revenue Ruling 85-74 under the standard set forth in Chevron."), with Aeroquip-Vickers, Inc. v. Comm'r, 347 F.3d 173, 181 (6th Cir.2003) ("In light of the Supreme Court's decisions in Christensen and Mead, we conclude that Revenue Ruling 82-20 should not be accorded Chevron deference.");"
...
"Air Brake, however, cannot rely upon this principle because the Chief Counsel's legal interpretations have no claim to deference of any sort. For one reason, they are too informal. Congress does not generally expect agencies to make law through general counsel opinion letters. See Christensen, 529 U.S. at 587, 120 S.Ct. 1655 ("opinion letters ... lack the force of law"); Heimmermann v. First Union Mortgage Corp., 305 F.3d 1257, 1262 (11th Cir.2002) ("[L]etters from HUD's general counsel to members of Congress ... are the kinds of informal policy positions that lack the force of law and are unentitled to Chevron deference."), cert. denied, 539 U.S. 970, 123 S.Ct. 2641, 156 L.Ed.2d 675 (2003); Am. Express Co. v. United States, 262 F.3d 1376, 1382 (Fed.Cir.2001) ("[An] interpretation ... contained in [a] General Counsel Memorandum... [that] is not reflected in a regulation adopted after notice and comment [] probably would not be entitled to Chevron deference."); cf. Hosp. Corp. of Am., v. Comm'r, 348 F.3d 136, 144 (6th Cir.2003) ("In Mead Corporation, the Court found that Congress had not implicitly delegated law-interpreting authority through the 10,000 to 15,000 tariff rulings made each year by forty-six different Customs offices without notice and comment procedures.").

For another reason, the letters interpret a regulation (Standard 121), not the statute that the agency is charged with enforcing (the Safety Act). Chevron does not apply in this setting. See Christensen, 529 U.S. at 587-88, 120 S.Ct. 1655 (distinguishing Chevron deference — the deference accorded an agency's interpretation of a statute — from the deference accorded an agency's interpretation of its own regulation); Am. Express Co., 262 F.3d at 1382-83 ("[W]e are not dealing with an agency's interpretation of a statute and issues of Chevron deference, but with the IRS's interpretation of an ambiguous term in its own Revenue Procedure.")."
...the AIM clearly authorizes those opposite direction turns during a 45 entry.
The AIM is absolutely not regulatory. You know that. It cannot "authorize" anything. It actually creates an ambiguity where there should be none.
 
Good point re agency interpretation and I was also puzzled by the out-of-context quote in that letter.
 
The AIM is absolutely not regulatory.
Agreed...
It cannot "authorize" anything.
...but there you are wrong. If the AIM says "here's how the FAA recommends doing this," then you cannot be violated for doing it that way. Plenty of case law on point. What the fact that it isn't regulatory means is that if they AIM says "here's how to do it," and you do it another way which does not violate any regulation, you cannot be violated solely for doing it other than as the AIM says, (although you still might be found to be careless/reckless for doing it that way anyway -- case law on that point, too).

And, by the way, the fact that you think something is "plainly erroneous or inconsistent with the regulation" doesn't mean a court will think so, too. Further, there is no statute regarding pattern direction, only a regulation, and as the cases you quote say, that requires considerable deference to the Chief Counsel's interpretation of that regulation.
 
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Not original with me, but saw this mentioned years ago by some clever wit on Usenet rec.aviation.piloting - a presumably "by the letter of the law legal" pattern that is a "right" pattern composed only of left turns. The regulation mentions direction of turns, not any definition of "left" or "right" pattern. ...
attachment.php
While "approaching" the airport the turns are being made to the right, with respect to the airport not the "clever" pilot, IMO:
Clever pattern.jpg
Those left turns aren't made while approaching the airport, but while going away from it. Half-way around the first turn the pilot should have rolled out on the upwind to comply.

dtuuri
 
The reg doesn't say "while approaching the airport." It says "when approaching to land."
 
Are you suggesting they aren't the same place?

No, I'm not suggesting that the airport is not the same place as the airtport. :rolleyes:

I'm suggesting that the two phrases don't mean the same thing.

I think they chose the phrase "approaching to land" to indicate the approach phase of flight. It is an activity that does not require you to always be flying toward the airport. When you are on downwind, after you pass abeam of the approach end of the runway, you are "going away from" the airport. Would you say that you are no longer "approaching to land" at that time?
 
Those left turns aren't made while approaching the airport, but while going away from it. Half-way around the first turn the pilot should have rolled out on the upwind to comply.

dtuuri

Why are we arguing about how many angels fit on the head of a pin?

Regardless of regulations, putting the threshold on your six while trying to turn base to final qualifies as STUHOOOOOPID.
 
No, I'm not suggesting that the airport is not the same place as the airtport. :rolleyes:

I'm suggesting that the two phrases don't mean the same thing.

I think they chose the phrase "approaching to land" to indicate the approach phase of flight. It is an activity that does not require you to always be flying toward the airport. When you are on downwind, after you pass abeam of the approach end of the runway, you are "going away from" the airport. Would you say that you are no longer "approaching to land" at that time?
I would say approaching to land means approaching the airport. I'd say the definition of approaching means to draw nearer in time and space. I'd say it isn't necessary to make rectangular patterns even though we do, but since the reg doesn't delve into those details it must have a more general purpose. That would be to require aircraft to fly flight paths that flow around the airport in the same direction with small merge angles to afford more time to see and avoid each other as the range decreases. Literal interpretations like the clever drawing miss the point IMO.

EDIT: I'd also note that the rule applies to the vicinity of the airport which is a greater area than the traffic pattern, so the argument that approaching to land only applies to aircraft already in a rectangular pattern doesn't hold water.

dtuuri
 
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The traffic patterns are advisory in nature, not law. I comply with them unless there is a reason where a devition is more appropriate. I said I "occasionally" announce my intentions and fly a right hand pattern. Certainly, not all the time or if there is traffic.

As for posting something here that is not normally done? It is ludicrous to think the FAA would launch an investigation and enforcement action based on a right hand turn in a left hand traffic pattern when I was avoiding flying over houses, at night, with 45 MPH winds at the surface. Bring it on.

I can dream up unlikely scenarios all day long too, about as helpful as this thread...so far.

Some of you are forgetting one other aspect of traffic pattern turns being to the left or the right... In some, maybe more than not, the pattern, both direction and altitude, has more to do with keeping the local population from complaining about noise etc... escpecially when near sensitive areas such as farmlands etc... Know the published pattern for the airport, fly it, and stop being a hotshot! The airport you save may be your own!! :mad2:
 
Some of you are forgetting one other aspect of traffic pattern turns being to the left or the right... In some, maybe more than not, the pattern, both direction and altitude, has more to do with keeping the local population from complaining about noise etc... escpecially when near sensitive areas such as farmlands etc... Know the published pattern for the airport, fly it, and stop being a hotshot! The airport you save may be your own!! :mad2:

You are absolutely correct. We have a couple of one-sided patterns here in the northwest, so designated as to avoid overflying residential areas. The locals would just love an excuse to shut these airports down.

Bob Gardner
 
Some of you are forgetting one other aspect of traffic pattern turns being to the left or the right... In some, maybe more than not, the pattern, both direction and altitude, has more to do with keeping the local population from complaining about noise etc... escpecially when near sensitive areas such as farmlands etc... Know the published pattern for the airport, fly it, and stop being a hotshot! The airport you save may be your own!! :mad2:

I will buy "most" of your thoughts...BUT,....


"escpecially when near sensitive areas such as farmlands "

I think aircraft flying over farmlands would be alot better then over populated neighborhoods..:idea:......:yes:
 
I will buy "most" of your thoughts...BUT,....


"escpecially when near sensitive areas such as farmlands "

I think aircraft flying over farmlands would be alot better then over populated neighborhoods..:idea:......:yes:

Livestock often react negatively to loud noises and many farms raise livestock.
 
Livestock often react negatively to loud noises and many farms raise livestock.


So the livestock can stand to hear the loud noise of the tractor that dragged food out to fed them a few times a day, or the noise of the 4 wheeler that rancher rides to check on them, and freak out over the noise of a plane 1000 feet up...:confused::confused:.......

ps... I sometimes lease out my ranch which has my 3000' runway on it to a fellow rancher who runs her multi thousand head to graze on it...... The best part of flying down to it is making multiple low passes to scare the cattle off.. There are times I have to get 3-5 feet above their heads to get them to even look up.... Now, that is REAL fun.. I love dumb cows..:yes::rolleyes:...
 

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So the livestock can stand to hear the loud noise of the tractor that dragged food out to fed them a few times a day, or the noise of the 4 wheeler that rancher rides to check on them, and freak out over the noise of a plane 1000 feet up...:confused::confused:.......

ps... I sometimes lease out my ranch which has my 3000' runway on it to a fellow rancher who runs her multi thousand head to graze on it...... The best part of flying down to it is making multiple low passes to scare the cattle off.. There are times I have to get 3-5 feet above their heads to get them to even look up.... Now, that is REAL fun.. I love dumb cows..:yes::rolleyes:...

Hens won't lay eggs, cows won't give milk, minks won't make more minks...
 
I would say approaching to land means approaching the airport. I'd say the definition of approaching means to draw nearer in time and space.

By that line of reasoning, a plane on downwind can turn in any direction the pilot pleases. Do you believe that? You failed to answer this question.

I'd say it isn't necessary to make rectangular patterns even though we do...

I don't claim that rectangular patterns are required.

EDIT: I'd also note that the rule applies to the vicinity of the airport which is a greater area than the traffic pattern, so the argument that approaching to land only applies to aircraft already in a rectangular pattern doesn't hold water.

That's an argument that I never made. But rectangular patterns are certainly allowed, are they not? If so, then if you adhere to your line of reasoning above, that leads to the untenable conclusion that you are no longer required to make turns in any particular direction if you happen to fly a downwind leg, because you are no longer getting closer to the airport. If a line of reasoning leads to an untenable conclusion, then the line of reasoning is untenable.
 
Why are we arguing about how many angels fit on the head of a pin?

Because it's the Internet!

Regardless of regulations, putting the threshold on your six while trying to turn base to final qualifies as STUHOOOOOPID.

No doubt.
 
By that line of reasoning, a plane on downwind can turn in any direction the pilot pleases. Do you believe that? You failed to answer this question.
I said the rule doesn't address rectangular patterns and is more general in nature. The clever diagram is a right-handed flow, against the spririt of the rule, even though the pilot does so by turning left all the time like a ship with a jammed rudder. Sorry if that doesn't satisfy your desire to nail me.



I don't claim that rectangular patterns are required.
Didn't mean to imply you did.



That's an argument that I never made.
Consider it my preemptive reply.

But rectangular patterns are certainly allowed, are they not? If so, then if you adhere to your line of reasoning above, that leads to the untenable conclusion that you are no longer required to make turns in any particular direction if you happen to fly a downwind leg, because you are no longer getting closer to the airport. If a line of reasoning leads to an untenable conclusion, then the line of reasoning is untenable.
I think you're too literal for your own good. Obviously, an airplane can't stop and let traffic pass before proceding, so maneuvering as necessary is assumed. The general scope of the rule applies to the flow around airports not to needed maneuvering, like entering the downwind or extending it to lose altitude. Even the Chief Counsel seems to agree with that.

dtuuri
 
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