To IFR or not to IFR?

[noobJohn]

I'm thinking of starting on an IFR rating. I'm a little hesitant because I'm not sure I would use it enough to stay proficient. I've been flying about 5 hours a month since getting my PPL and that's probalby the amount I'll be flying for the next few years. I feel like 5 hours a month is enough to stay sharp VFR barely.

So here's what I'm thinking, I'm counting on y'all to correct me.

Pros :

1) Learn new stuff. I like learning
2) More flying time with CFI. It's always good to have a critic.
3) More practice talking to ATC. (I learned at uncontrolled field.)
4) Eventually get IFR rating

Cons :

1) IFR Rating may leave me with just enough skills/knowledge to be dangerous.
2) Perhaps won't have time/$$$ to maintain proficiency

Questions :

1) Can IFR be accomplished slowly? Like 2 lessons/month? Based on internet advice I did 2 lessons/week for PPL and I think that helped progress.
2) Does anyone have an IFR rating, almost never fly in IMC, and still feel glad they have the rating?

 

[gprellwitz]

Go for it. Your aircraft handling will be more precise, you will have a better understanding of the national air system, and you will have some extra skills in your pocket should you need them. But, as you point out, you will not necessarily be proficient. For trying to use the IFR rating for something other than punching through a thin layer, you will want to get refresher training.

 

[kgruber]

Yes, get the instrument rating. You can't operate in the system now.

 

[bobmrg]

I'm thinking of starting on an IFR rating. I'm a little hesitant because I'm not sure I would use it enough to stay proficient. I've been flying about 5 hours a month since getting my PPL and that's probalby the amount I'll be flying for the next few years. I feel like 5 hours a month is enough to stay sharp VFR barely.

So here's what I'm thinking, I'm counting on y'all to correct me.

Pros :

1) Learn new stuff. I like learning
2) More flying time with CFI. It's always good to have a critic.
3) More practice talking to ATC. (I learned at uncontrolled field.)
4) Eventually get IFR rating

Cons :

1) IFR Rating may leave me with just enough skills/knowledge to be dangerous.
2) Perhaps won't have time/$$$ to maintain proficiency

Questions :

1) Can IFR be accomplished slowly? Like 2 lessons/month? Based on internet advice I did 2 lessons/week for PPL and I think that helped progress.
2) Does anyone have an IFR rating, almost never fly in IMC, and still feel glad they have the rating?

The instrument rating will provide you with the knowledge (or train you on where to find it) to make intelligent go/no-go decisions. That doesn't make you dangerous, it makes you a better pilot.

Bob Gardner

 

[Baron2PG]

My $0.02 is that IFR needs to be done quickly. There is quite a bit of new coordination and communication skills. Long gaps will drag out the learning process. I used the PIC course and was very happy with the process.

Even if you don't fly hard-core IFR, having the rating and being in the system will make your VFR flying much less stressful.

 

[flyingron]

Actually, I'm a lot more conservative now that I have the rating than I was as a VFR only pilot.

 

[jordane93]

get it. if you enjoy VFR flying, you will have a blast flying IFR. very worth it. makes you more precise and a safer pilot.

 

[FORANE]

Start working on it. As everyone here states, it will make you a safer, more confident pilot and you will learn how to get more out of the system even if only VFR.

I did VFR in about 10 days, but took IFR piecemeal with about 10 different instructors spread out over about a year. I believe accelerated training would be best, but doing it slowly is superior to not doing it.

Buy comm-1 ifr radio simulator; it will help communications tremendously.

 

[dukeblue219]

I'm thinking of starting on an IFR rating. I'm a little hesitant because I'm not sure I would use it enough to stay proficient. I've been flying about 5 hours a month since getting my PPL and that's probalby the amount I'll be flying for the next few years. I feel like 5 hours a month is enough to stay sharp VFR barely.

Do it, no question about it. I'm in the same boat as you -- I don't fly as much as I used to think I would, and I'm very aware of the effect that has on my skills. However, the IR made me a better pilot and a safer pilot. I won't stay proficient or current just from my own flying so I have to keep training throughout the year, which might actually be good in a way.

It also exposed me to different conditions than I experienced as a VFR pilot -- in a sense I'm less afraid of days that aren't clear and a million, not because I'm crazy and feel I can fly in anything, but simply because I came to realize a bit of haze off the in the horizon or a few rain showers won't necessarily end my day. I guess what I'm saying is it broadened my horizons and gave me the tools and confidence to get utility from my certificate, even if I'm just out flying VFR on a summer day.

1) Learn new stuff. I like learning
2) More flying time with CFI. It's always good to have a critic.
3) More practice talking to ATC. (I learned at uncontrolled field.)
4) Eventually get IFR rating

Yep -- continued learning and practice is always good.

Cons :
1) IFR Rating may leave me with just enough skills/knowledge to be dangerous.

It won't unless you have poor decision making skills. If you're intelligent and conservative with your decision making you'll be fine. The training will give you more tools and a better understanding of the weather which will make you safer. Just understand that the IR is not a magic ticket to fly any time you want. The sort of folks who struggle with that decision making are going to make dumb decisions as a VFR pilot anyway.

2) Perhaps won't have time/$$$ to maintain proficiency

This is quite common. Doesn't mean you're any worse off than you were before. Just make sure you recognize your own limits.

If you did an IPC six months ago but haven't flown IFR since then, don't go off alone on a day with 500' ceilings and heavy rain. Stay as proficient as you can and set limits that you find comfortable. For example, I hardly ever have to fly an actual approach in IMC. As such, I have a personal minimum of about a 1000ft forecast ceiling at my destination. That way I can be confident in breaking out with plenty of time to spare. It limits my use of the ticket -- absolutely -- but it's what I feel comfortable with given the amount of flying I do in IMC. Similarly, don't let others pressure you into flying when you don't feel current and proficient for the conditions.

1) Can IFR be accomplished slowly? Like 2 lessons/month? Based on internet advice I did 2 lessons/week for PPL and I think that helped progress.

You probably could, but I wouldn't recommend it. I did a lesson every weekend and one weekday morning, and it took forever. If something came up and I missed a lesson or two it was very noticeable in my skillset. I think twice a week is probably a good minimum to aim for.

2) Does anyone have an IFR rating, almost never fly in IMC, and still feel glad they have the rating?

 

[frfly172]

You will appreciate the rating when it is MVFR or just below VFR . You can use it to poke through a layer and continue when you would have to stay on the ground. Gives you more choices and more days to fly.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Read the last three months, ( as an example) of fatal aircraft accidents. Many many of them are IFR pilots screwing up a landing, losing control, running out of fuel. Etc. etc. It's a great rating to have provided you use it often and are really up to speed.

 

[Clip4]

If I were not going to fly cross country on vacation or business, I would not bother with the rating.

 

[poadeleted20]

Pros :

1) Learn new stuff. I like learning
2) More flying time with CFI. It's always good to have a critic.
3) More practice talking to ATC. (I learned at uncontrolled field.)
4) Eventually get IFR rating

All good reasons.

Cons :

1) IFR Rating may leave me with just enough skills/knowledge to be dangerous.
2) Perhaps won't have time/$$$ to maintain proficiency

Bridges you can cross when you come to them.

Questions :

1) Can IFR be accomplished slowly? Like 2 lessons/month? Based on internet advice I did 2 lessons/week for PPL and I think that helped progress.

Yes, it can be done, but it's going to be very inefficient, and probably cost you a lot more than if you save up until you can go at least twice a week.

2) Does anyone have an IFR rating, almost never fly in IMC, and still feel glad they have the rating?

Many folks I know.

 

[Z06_Mir]

Living in AZ, I rarely fly in IMC. I have less 2 hours of actual logged in almost a year. I fly in the system whenever possible though. It's great practice. I fly with a safety pilot to maintain currency and it works pretty well. Now that I'm working on my II I am thankful for all the trips I've taken IFR even in VMC so that I have a clue what I'm doing... even if you never file IFR the rating will help you be a better pilot in the airplane and on the ground.

 

[Brad Z]

You will get a lot more utility out of flying by having the rating. I'd argue 50% of the flights I make are improved by having the ability to go IFR. By improved, I mean:

1) flight completed successfully when VFR was not possible
2) made trip that otherwise would have been cancelled due to uncertainty of VFR at some point along the route or return
3) allowed flight at a preferrable altitude to take advantage of smoother air, favorable winds, or provided more altitude above terrain.
4) got me through a broken or scattered cloud layer without dodging clouds or looking for sucker holes

Don't get me wrong, I love VFR, and switch bacck and forth between IFR and VFR seemlessly. VFR is a lot less stressful when you have IFR as an option too.

 

[Mistake Not...]

Not disagreeing with any of the above. But.

I didn't start an IR until I bought a plane and noticed I was cancelling trips because of the weather. Now, in a sense, I need one, not just want one (IR). After spending $$ on the plane, it's silly not to have the one additional thing that will maximize the utility.

 

[noobJohn]

Just wanted to say thanks for all the input. I think I'll start by buying the Sporty's Course. Perhaps go ahead and study and take the written., That'll start a timer on getting the training done.

 

[noobJohn]

Thinking about it a bit, I reckon that answers my biggest fear. That'll I go get the rating and decide it was a waste of time.

Quote:
2) Does anyone have an IFR rating, almost never fly in IMC, and still feel glad they have the rating?
Many folks I know.

 

[tehmightypirate]

I'm in a similar situation as you and decided to work towards my IFR for pretty much all the reasons above. I only fly about two hours a month to about 6 hours a month at most but supliment my flying with self study and being a safety pilot for my father. I don't have the budget to go after all of my IFR training right now nor do I have all the x-country I need so I'm going to pick away at it as I can. While this is clearly inefficient I don't feel it will be ineffective and in some ways better as I can study and review on my own between flights.

Your milage may vary of course.

 

[somorris]

Does anyone have an IFR rating, almost never fly in IMC, and still feel glad they have the rating?

That pretty much describes me, John (and as I understand, a lot of pilots). That being said, the IFR rating is more of a head game than stick and rudder. You can (at least I think you can) still keep your "hand in" pretty well by staying active on web forums, with IFR Refresher, etc. At least you won't forget too much of what you learned. I am glad I have the rating. I have also done some aerobatic training, and I am glad I have that experience also.

 

[Henning]

Here's the deal, there is no knowledge that is bad knowledge. You don't need to be proficient to save your ass, you need to be well trained. It's like riding a bicycle, it comes back quickly lol. SVT makes it very simple to remain safe and capable.

 

[Henning]

We mapped the world in 3D from the Space Shuttle to build this technology lol. The big money has been spent, it's part of that $13Trillion debt we like to complain about. It's up to y'all to determine if it was wasted or not..

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Recently: successful business executive, flying his son to look at various colleges, attempted to land in IFR conditions, maybe at tweed. In Conneticut.They were going to check out Yale university. Flying a turbo commander, missed the approach, attempted go round, lost control, ended up in someone's basement, killing both himself and his son. This incident is not unique, happens a lot to low time IFR rated pilots who do well on the computer, under the hood, but under pressure, in the clutch can't hack it. Study the accident reports, it's not unusual. Getting the rating is surely not a waste of time, it's great! Like Clint Eastwood said, " fellas gotta know his limitations."

 

[Lndwarrior]

I did my rating slowly over 3 years. It cost me $8000. AfteRwords
I could not afford to stay proficient. I learned a lot and became a better pilot. However my wife and I could have flown a lot of VFR adventures with the 8k.
If I had to do it again I would take the memories with my wife over the IR. Then again I'm a bit of an old fart so that has something to do with my perspective.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Do you enjoy submarine driving? That is the big question. I fly for the visual and sensual rewards. Flying on instruments is a chore for me. So first figure out if you like that kind of flying, then figure out if you need those skills to fly more or where you want/need to go. If you live in a sunny location and or only fly for fun spend the money on acro or a glider rating or just keep doing what is fun.

 

[Brad Z]

Do you enjoy submarine driving? That is the big question. I fly for the visual and sensual rewards. Flying on instruments is a chore for me. So first figure out if you like that kind of flying, then figure out if you need those skills to fly more or where you want/need to go. If you live in a sunny location and or only fly for fun spend the money on acro or a glider rating or just keep doing what is fun.

Personally, I enjoy a beautiful sunrise/sunset over the top while the rest of the world slogs through the undercast, courtesy of a few minutes of submarine flying. Of course I fly to get places, rather than just fly circles on pretty days.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Pro:
You don't have to fly in total IMC to use your skills, comes in handy if doing night flying especially if you have scattered clouds that you can't always see.

Con:
Here in SE Florida, if on a IFR plan they will redirect you to middle of state to get you out of the coastal traffic, turning a 1 hr smooth scenic trip down the coast into a 1.5 hr over interior that is more likely to be bumpy.

 

[John Collins]

Just wanted to say thanks for all the input. I think I'll start by buying the Sporty's Course. Perhaps go ahead and study and take the written., That'll start a timer on getting the training done.

When you do plan to start your training, I would recommend flying several times per week or more. It will save you money in the long run. Either save up so you can afford the expense or alternatively, if you are a good credit risk, take out a loan for the training. The interest you pay on the loan will be more than offset by the reduction in total expenses, quite possibly by a factor of 10.

 

[LDJones]

Fly often and get it done. I just finished up a gentleman who took eight years to do it and it got very expensive, including two writtens.

 

[tehmightypirate]

When you do plan to start your training, I would recommend flying several times per week or more. It will save you money in the long run. Either save up so you can afford the expense or alternatively, if you are a good credit risk, take out a loan for the training. The interest you pay on the loan will be more than offset by the reduction in total expenses, quite possibly by a factor of 10.

That's not a bad idea, I might have to look into this myself.

 

[N747JB]

I used the excuse for years that I mainly fly to the beach and if it's IFR, I don't want to go to the beach! Anyway, it's the best thing you'll ever do, you don't HAVE to fly when it's 200-1/2, but you can if you need to. If you can fly 70% of the days VFR, you can fly 90% of the days once you get your IR. It's not a good idea to think you can fly in any weather, but just climbing above the overcast is a GREAT feeling. Saturday we flew from Atlanta to Tampa, I didn't see the ground from 800 ft AGL until we got to the Florida line! We broke out at 3500 feet and it was clear as a bell above, just no ground contact.
If you want fly for transportation, I think it's a must, otherwise you will spend a lot of good flying days sitting at the airport or flying commercial.

 

[chemgeek]

Best safety investment you can make. The IR rating will improve you flying precision and take all the stress out of marginal VFR flight. Additionally, flying IFR takes the uncertainty out of restricted airspace and TFRs, e.g. flying in the DCA area. It also gets you a free pass into class B and C airspace.

 

[rich0]

Disclaimer: I'm still working on my Private Pilot cert.

I expect to be in the same boat as you, but I plan to eventually get my instrument rating (probably after letting the bank recover a bit, and getting more general airman-ship under my belt). Here is why:

1. Generally I'm fairly good at self-control - in VFR I might be able to legally scud run with 1000 ft ceilings but I'm not about to do that, and in IFR I don't plan to start flying into thunderstorms.

2. I'm doing this mostly for fun, and I think it will be a fun experience. If I never use it, I'll have gotten value out of the lessons.

3. As others have pointed out, knowledge is power.

4. It will be handy when I'm trying to get from here to there and the weather can't be counted on to be VFR all the way.

I also expect to have some challenges maintaining legal proficiency. However, one thing I would plan to do is spend time practicing on a flight simulator - they don't give you the feel of the plane, but you can fly any approach you want in whatever visual conditions you want, and you can do it while wearing a kneeboard, etc. There are also services like PilotEdge that can pepper you with all the curveballs you want.

From what I've been reading even most of the flight sim skeptics find it useful for IFR training, provided that you actually use it in a realistic manner.

Then again, I'm partial to sims - been flying them since elementary school, and I've found it helpful to my flight training (really helps out with the theory and navigation, with ATC if you've flown with realistic ATC software, general awareness, etc). The main thing it doesn't give you is the feel of the plane, which is obviously critical but something you probably already have now.

 

[rbridges]

Pro:
You don't have to fly in total IMC to use your skills, comes in handy if doing night flying especially if you have scattered clouds that you can't always see.

Con:
Here in SE Florida, if on a IFR plan they will redirect you to middle of state to get you out of the coastal traffic, turning a 1 hr smooth scenic trip down the coast into a 1.5 hr over interior that is more likely to be bumpy.

I agree with both points. I file an IFR plan just about all the time unless it's 30 minutes or less. Although I get a briefing every time, I feel better knowing ATC is talking directly with me i.e. weather, TFRs, traffic, etc.

In central Georgia, they scoot you around the Atlanta Bravo when flying north. When I flew VFR, I'd sneak underneath it, but when IFR they typically send you around the perimeter.

 

[danhagan]

I started and stopped. We get possibly one flyable IFR day in my area. The rest will be CB tops to 45K MSL, have lightning or in winter icing all the way. Bases here are rarely below 2000 AGL. I do want to complete it mainly for leaving coastal areas sooner due to a thin decipating fog (usually have to wait until 930am or 10am on California trips in July-August). I have the 40hrs, but need the written and IFR XC ... well that and to review a ton again.

Most XC's that i've done that have had rain, I would NOT want to have been in IMC, I can see the problem areas easier underneath and VFR.

EDIT: not sure on your location, but if east or west coast it's probably a "must have"

 

[noobJohn]

I just wanted to say thanks (again) for all the input!

I talked about this with the CFI I did my PPL with. He gave me the same advice he gave me on the PPL, getting it done faster will cost more $$$/unit time but less $$$ in the end. Surprisingly, like one of you guys, he suggested that sim flying was useful for IFR. I say surprisingly because he was a very stick/rudder/old-skool/don't turn-on-the-GPS sort of CFI for the PPL.

I think I'm going to study books and dvds and take the written before I start flying with an instructor. That'll keep me busy for a while and I can keep enjoying flying VFR on nice days. I'm still going to go with the "slow" training plan. If it's not working, I'll ramp it up.

 

[Henning]

I just wanted to say thanks (again) for all the input!

I talked about this with the CFI I did my PPL with. He gave me the same advice he gave me on the PPL, getting it done faster will cost more $$$/unit time but less $$$ in the end. Surprisingly, like one of you guys, he suggested that sim flying was useful for IFR. I say surprisingly because he was a very stick/rudder/old-skool/don't turn-on-the-GPS sort of CFI for the PPL.

I think I'm going to study books and dvds and take the written before I start flying with an instructor. That'll keep me busy for a while and I can keep enjoying flying VFR on nice days. I'm still going to go with the "slow" training plan. If it's not working, I'll ramp it up.

That's because learning to fly, and learning to fly on instruments are two completely different things, actually in the most critical, they are opposite even.
In VFR initial flight training, it's all about learning and how to use the new kinesthetic senses that are involved in aviation to control the plane. In instrument flying one of the great challenges is IGNORING those same senses because a critical one, vision, is lying to you until you interpret what all those instruments are telling you. This BTW is the great advantage to SVT, synthetic vision, the picture you are looking at isn't lying and you don't have to interpret attitude. This is why simulators are good for IFR especially at the start. Most of IFR training is about learning procedure and executing it by maintaining situational awareness through the use of instruments. This is obviously easier without sensory distraction, it's also more time and cost effective as you can start and stop anywhere along the line and review and practice various segments without wasting a bunch of personal, airplane, and airspace, time having to recover and set back up. There is a school of thought that says once you have these factors well developed it will be faster and simpler to learn and overcome the sensory challenges in the airplane rather than trying to do both at the same time, and I can see merit in their position.

 

[ksp_530]

I am a 20 hour IFR student. After getting my PPL, I typically flew 2-3 hours a month, mostly to be proficient and occasional cross countries with my wife. I decided to start my IR because I had to cancel several weekend trips due to marginal weather or unsure how the weather going to be. With IFR rating, I have a better chance of flying during the marginal weather conditions.

Contrary to what others are suggesting, I am taking my time to complete my rating. I started my training in March of this and hoping finish by Jan or Feb of next year. I do not want to rush it. I wanted to get comfortable flying in the system and learn weather patterns during various times of the year. I am a low time pilot, therefore, taking time is helping me. I don't think I will spend a whole lot more money by spreading the training over a period of one year. But, I read, watch videos, fly simulator, review charts, weather etc. to stay proficient. I want it to be good learning and wanted to enjoy the training process. I am not doing this just for the rating, but to be safer pilot.

 

[noobJohn]

Cool! Good to hear from someone on the slow road.

I am a 20 hour IFR student. After getting my PPL, I typically flew 2-3 hours a month, mostly to be proficient and occasional cross countries with my wife. I decided to start my IR because I had to cancel several weekend trips due to marginal weather or unsure how the weather going to be. With IFR rating, I have a better chance of flying during the marginal weather conditions.

Contrary to what others are suggesting, I am taking my time to complete my rating. I started my training in March of this and hoping finish by Jan or Feb of next year. I do not want to rush it. I wanted to get comfortable flying in the system and learn weather patterns during various times of the year. I am a low time pilot, therefore, taking time is helping me. I don't think I will spend a whole lot more money by spreading the training over a period of one year. But, I read, watch videos, fly simulator, review charts, weather etc. to stay proficient. I want it to be good learning and wanted to enjoy the training process. I am not doing this just for the rating, but to be safer pilot.

 

[noobJohn]

That makes a lot of sense.

That's because learning to fly, and learning to fly on instruments are two completely different things, actually in the most critical, they are opposite even.
In VFR initial flight training, it's all about learning and how to use the new kinesthetic senses that are involved in aviation to control the plane. In instrument flying one of the great challenges is IGNORING those same senses because a critical one, vision, is lying to you until you interpret what all those instruments are telling you.