Title Search/Insurance

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by Mtns2Skies, Nov 12, 2017.

  1. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,949
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mtns2Skies
    Are both necessary when buying a plane or just one or the other?
     
  2. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    5,293
    Location:
    Anchorage, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    stewartb
    I've never heard of aircraft title insurance.
     
  3. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,949
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mtns2Skies
  4. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    17,815
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
  5. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    5,505
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    Neither is necessary. I wouldn't count on a lender deciding it was unnecessary though before forking over their money.
     
  6. Stewartb

    Stewartb Final Approach

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2014
    Messages:
    5,293
    Location:
    Anchorage, AK
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    stewartb
    I've done the title searches pre-purchase with bonded companies. I guess that could be construed to be title insurance? My current exp required me to get a lawyer involved and they sent me to an OKC title service to handle my paperwork. That was a goat rope but it was mostly my fault for filling out my initial forms incorrectly. The point is that the title service proved helpful.
     
  7. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,949
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mtns2Skies
    Thanks I'll forgo this... AOPA sure likes to peddle a title search.
    I just ordered from @James331's FAA link though now the cost is $10 :eek:
     
  8. luvflyin

    luvflyin Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 8, 2015
    Messages:
    5,505
    Location:
    Vancouver, WA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Luvflyin
    I ain't sayin you shouldn't do it, just that there ain't no law sayin ya gotta. Sounds like yer payin cash which makes you the lender. Caveat Emptor.
     
  9. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,585
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    The assumption here, of course, is that all financial transactions regarding the airplane were actually filed with the FAA.
     
  10. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,702
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    If you are satisfied you can read and understand the contents of that CD and are willing to take the risk of being wrong and have someone else possibly have the right to your airplane after you buy it, that's your choice.

    BTW, have you been following the Oooooold Lien Release thread in which a lien created in 1978, paid off, but not released on the record is apparently causing a problem?
     
    G-Man likes this.
  11. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,702
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    If they weren't you're in pretty decent shape since, unless you actually knew about the transactions, it is unlikely they could be enforced against you. Yeah, noting is perfect and things can get screwed up, but that's the whole idea of any recording system, from the FAA Registry to your local land records office..
     
  12. MauleSkinner

    MauleSkinner En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2005
    Messages:
    4,585
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    MauleSkinner
    Good to know...thanks
     
  13. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,083
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    The title search they peddle is going to get you the same material that you will get on the FAA CD. What the title companies really offer is expedited service. If you order a title search today you may have the material back tomorrow. Ordering the FAA CD will take a couple of weeks or so.

    There may be some “insurance” if you have the title company review the records for you and give you an “all clear” statement or a statement warning you about unreleased liens. This can be helpful if you don’t know what you’re looking at or for in the records.

    As a side note, the FAA will allow the ownership of an aircraft to be transferred without releasing a lien. This is how some of these really old liens go unnoticed for decades, and are now hard to release (everyone is dead, company is gone, etc).
     
  14. flyingron

    flyingron Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2007
    Messages:
    15,582
    Location:
    Catawba, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    FlyingRon
    A title search report isn't much good if the company isn't going to back it up with some sort of warranty (insurance).
     
  15. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,702
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Yes and no. A lot of folks go the route of a title report without also purchasing insurance. The "good" of it is having someone who knows what she is looking at look cuts the risk somewhat. Obviously not as much as title insurance, but we all make those kinds of risk/benefit calculations. I might view buying a $15,000 Tomahawk differently than a $300,000 AeroStar and choose to rely on a mere title search for one but want title insurance for the other.
     
  16. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    17,815
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    It's not that bad, especially if you print it up

    Find the Lien and staple it to the release, move on to the next one, if you have the noodle to be able to earn enough to buy said plane, you should be smart enough to go through the CD IMO
     
  17. midlifeflyer

    midlifeflyer Final Approach

    Joined:
    May 25, 2006
    Messages:
    8,702
    Location:
    Chapel Hill NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mark
    Some folks yes, some folks no. It depends a lot on what's there. My take is understanding what that stuff is and says has very little to do with intelligence and far more to do with experience. Some pretty smart folks have come to me to untie messes of various kinds (not limited to reviewing title records) when they "understood" what they were doing to begin with.
     
  18. James331

    James331 Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2014
    Messages:
    17,815
    Location:
    Behind you!
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    James331
    I guess, but if you print it all up, lay it out on your floor and match up lien to release, it's really not that big of a deal.

    However, everyone is different I guess
     
  19. edo2000

    edo2000 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2015
    Messages:
    320
    Location:
    Northern New Mexico
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    edo2000
    Title searches are fairly inexpensive- usually $60-$90. On one fairly recent aircraft purchase of mine, my title report showed a $16K unreleased lien against the aircraft. I showed this to the seller and he ended up paying the same title search outfit to research the lien and clear it. Turns out the lien had been paid but never released. I think it cost the seller $300 for the company to do the research and paperwork and provide him and me with a clear title search.
     
    midlifeflyer likes this.
  20. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,332
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    GeorgeC
    I've only ever seen 337s and bills of sale on the FAA CDs, are liens recorded there as well?
     
  21. Fearless Tower

    Fearless Tower Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2010
    Messages:
    14,867
    Location:
    Norfolk, VA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Fearless Tower
    It’s a separate report that the FAA produces.
     
  22. mondtster

    mondtster Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2011
    Messages:
    2,083
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    mondtster
    They're in with the registrations and bills of sale on the FAA CDs.

    You may not have ever seen one, if the airplane(s) you've dealt with have never had a lien against them. The first two planes I owned never had any.
     
    edo2000 and midlifeflyer like this.
  23. Mtns2Skies

    Mtns2Skies Super Moderator Management Council Member

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2008
    Messages:
    2,949
    Location:
    Wisconsin
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mtns2Skies
    FWIW I got the $10 FAA CD and it took me maybe an hour sort through everything and put it into a nice binder with the headings:
    Airworthiness
    Bills of Sale
    Registration
    Liens
    Major Alterations

    There were a few liens from the 80's but it was really quite easy to sort through and match the releases to. This is for a 1950's aircraft that has had about 10 owners.
     
  24. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Messages:
    4,002
    Location:
    SoCal
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Joe Farrell, yeah, him
    figure this out - the CD is ordered.

    Owner is a little cagey on his current ownership status

    Claims he bought a twin 4 months ago - name does not appear in the records

    is the owner of the current airplane I am looking at

    claims he will hand over a bill of sale to a broker completely uninvolved in the transaction - did not sell him the Twin

    Airplane is not being brokered for sale

    broker will then sell me the airplane -

    I can close this deal in 2 weeks - and he won't wait.

    The bells and whistles are starting to go off . . .
     
  25. chartbundle

    chartbundle Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2011
    Messages:
    850
    Location:
    State of Confusion
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    chartbundle
    Trying to hide money from creditors, wife, ex-wife, etc?
     
  26. comanchepilot

    comanchepilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2010
    Messages:
    4,002
    Location:
    SoCal
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Joe Farrell, yeah, him
    something -
     
  27. brien23

    brien23 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    May 31, 2005
    Messages:
    1,067
    Location:
    Oak Harbor
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brien
    Unfortunately, situations also arise in which the seller’s actions are intentional and result in the aircraft buyer not receiving title to the aircraft. If the seller forges the bill of sale or if the aircraft is subject to judicial proceedings (such as bankruptcy, receivership, probate, conservatorship or dissolution of marriage), and the court has not authorized the sale. Courts do not always file with the FAA their rulings are binding and the only way you will find out is when the X wife shows up and wants her half of the plane, and she has the courts to back up her claim. You can always go after the guy who sold you the plane if you can find him.