TIGHAR thinks it has part of plane...

Before the Titanic was found, there was a certain mystique that surrounded the ship and it's history. After its discovery, along with assorted artifacts brought up for sideshow tours, the mystique surrounding the Titanic is pretty much over with, people have lost interest, or are losing it over time.

Had the ship never been found, the legend would still be alive and well.

I think the same will hold true for Amelia and her legend, once her wreck is discovered, she will enjoy a burst of renewed fame, then dwindle off into obscurity over the years.

Myself, I think some things should be left alone, like the wreck of the Arizona.

-John
 
The evidence on the TIGHAR site regarding the Earhart tragedy seems pretty dang solid too me. I think they have it right. Earhart and Noonan died as castaways on Gardner Island. Insufficient SAR technology and resources at the time sealed their fate.

Check out the site. It's a fun read.

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/AEdescr.html
 
Dav8or said:
The evidence on the TIGHAR site regarding the Earhart tragedy seems pretty dang solid too me. I think they have it right. Earhart and Noonan died as castaways on Gardner Island. Insufficient SAR technology and resources at the time sealed their fate.

Check out the site. It's a fun read.

http://tighar.org/Projects/Earhart/AEdescr.html
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I agree! I for one want to know for sure if they really did die as castaways.
 
TIGHAR always has some "solid" evidence anytime they run short of money.
 
mikea said:
:thumbsup: TIGHAR always has some new evidence every spring when they need to fund another tropical island vacation.
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Just curious, I really have no dog in this fight, but after reading all the evidence they have on their site as well as their logic and investigations, what would it take for you to believe their hypothesis? If you believe all they do is disingenuous and a hoax, how can you believe any "proof"?
 
Dav8or said:
Just curious, I really have no dog in this fight, but after reading all the evidence they have on their site as well as their logic and investigations, what would it take for you to believe their hypothesis? If you believe all they do is disingenuous and a hoax, how can you believe any "proof"?
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It is the boy crying wolf scenario. Tighar has made so many claims and has produced so little evidence, they have no credibility. Add to that the never ending requests for donation and people smell a rat.

What proof would it take? The remains of a Pratt or a Ham-Stan with the right serial number(s) would be good.
 
kyleb said:
It is the boy crying wolf scenario. Tighar has made so many claims and has produced so little evidence, they have no credibility. Add to that the never ending requests for donation and people smell a rat.

What proof would it take? The remains of a Pratt or a Ham-Stan with the right serial number(s) would be good.
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What claims have that made? They have a theory, and they have publicized the theory. That's true! But have they made factual claims that proved to be untrue?
 
Pratt would prove it's not hers. Earhart's Lockeed had Wright R-975s.
 
Dav8or said:
Just curious, I really have no dog in this fight, but after reading all the evidence they have on their site as well as their logic and investigations, what would it take for you to believe their hypothesis? If you believe all they do is disingenuous and a hoax, how can you believe any "proof"?
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They thought they had proof when:

The found cosmetics and stuff on some island.
That they found a wrecked ship with a name that only one civilian casually listening to a radio set thought they heard.
That they had found the landing gear off the eletctra in the water somewhere.

I don't know what the status of this "find" is, but I can tell you they've hit the press with "we've found proof" before that hasn't panned out.
 
I don't think you have been following this very closely as your "facts" are vague and jumbled, so maybe you shouldn't be trying to trash their reputation when you seem to know squat.

The cosmetics jars were found on Gardner Island now known as Nikumororo (sp?), which was the Island that they theorized is where she landed.

You are mixing up bits of information confusing a distress call with a ship. There was a lady in Florida who claimed to have heard a distress call on the radio identifying herself as Earhart. This was just after the disappearance.

They found a picture that was taken of the island at some later point in time that had something sticking out of the water that they thought might be a landing gear strut from the Lockheed.

Everything I have read when they came up with more circumstantial evidence is that that presented it as just that. I do not recall them ever claiming that what they found proves that Amelia was there, rather just that the evidence supported the theory, but was not conclusive. I have been following this story for years. If I missed where they claimed that what they found was final proof, please show me.

I don't have a dog in this either, but I am wondering whether you have some of relationship that makes you feel the need to trash their credibility.
 
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John Baker said:
Before the Titanic was found, there was a certain mystique that surrounded the ship and it's history. After its discovery, along with assorted artifacts brought up for sideshow tours, the mystique surrounding the Titanic is pretty much over with, people have lost interest, or are losing it over time.



Had the ship never been found, the legend would still be alive and well.



I think the same will hold true for Amelia and her legend, once her wreck is discovered, she will enjoy a burst of renewed fame, then dwindle off into obscurity over the years.



Myself, I think some things should be left alone, like the wreck of the Arizona.



-John
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Removing the mystique from an ill-prepared pilot and an even worse navigator, would probably be a good thing.
 
denverpilot said:
Removing the mystique from an ill-prepared pilot and an even worse navigator, would probably be a good thing.
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I agree! Growing up, Amelia Earhart was a heroine of mine. After I learned to fly, and read more about her and other women pilots of the era, I came to understand that she was an average pilot, at best, driven by a PR machine beyond her capabilities.

She will probably still be a symbol, but perhaps in a cautionary manner if we know the truth.
 
I've heard that there were lots of women pilots who were far better than her. The point about being driven by the PR machine makes a lot of sense. It reminds me of the Jessica Dubroff tragedy, although in that case I think it was the little girl's flight instructor and/or her father who were being influenced by publicity.
 
Kristin said:
What claims have that made? They have a theory, and they have publicized the theory. That's true! But have they made factual claims that proved to be untrue?
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They got a lot of attention with a "piece of aluminum skin from Amelia's Plane" that turned out to be a bust.

IMO, they are in the position of having a theory and trying to force fit anything and everything they find so it fits their theory.

They only thing they have reliably done is create PR events and raise money. Everything else has been fluff, IMO.
 
Myself, I think that Pancho Barnes was a hell of a lot more interesting of an aviator and person than Amelia could ever hope to be. Poncho lost out to Amelia in photographic appeal by a long shot, but here life was a lot more interesting than that of a trophy wife who's only real claim to fame was getting lost for good..

-John
 
I don't know about "only" claim to fame. She was the first woman to fly solo nonstop across the Altantic.
 
Palmpilot said:
I don't know about "only" claim to fame. She was the first woman to fly solo nonstop across the Altantic.
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Well that too, I thought I remembered her doing it with another pilot, guess I had it wrong. Was that more interesting than one of Pancho's parties?

-John
 
John Baker said:
Well that too, I thought I remembered her doing it with another pilot, guess I had it wrong. Was that more interesting than one of Pancho's parties?

-John
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I think you might be mixing events. She flew transatlantic earlier as (in her words) baggage with two other pilots. This got a lot of hoopla, but she subsequently flew solo and back and indeed was the first woman to do so.

First woman to fly solo around the world is Jerrie Mock whose plane hangs in the Udvar-Hazy center. Jerrie was quite a women. She sat up with us a few years ago throwing back vodka-tonics until the we hours and then still woke up before us eating cookies at our kitchen counter.
 
Kristin said:
I don't have a dog in this either, but I am wondering whether you have some of relationship that makes you feel the need to trash their credibility.
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As another with no particular dog in the fight, I have neither the time nor the motivation to dig up links, but if you go over to the WIX (Warbird Information Exchange) Forum and search for TIGHAR, you will find several threads that will give you an idea of where Kyle is coming from.

In short, TIGHAR's credibility has been in question long before the 'freckel cream' jar was found and it goes far beyond the Earhart case.

They have spent alot of donor money on alot of cases and have very little to show for it.
 
denverpilot said:
Removing the mystique from an ill-prepared pilot and an even worse navigator, would probably be a good thing.
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Really? Judge much? Over 2500 nautical miles with just a compass, watch and a sextant. They had to hit a little island of just 450 acres with just 4 miles of coastline. All by dead reckoning. I seriously, seriously doubt you could do it. I know I couldn't. By the way, they only had two more stops if they had made it to Howland. Honolulu and Oakland, CA. Nearly all the way around the world with nothing but a compass, watch, sextant and sometimes an ADF. The leg to Howland was by far the riskiest and most challenging of all. It proved to be too much.

How far have you been around the world?
 
Dav8or said:
Really? Judge much? Over 2500 nautical miles with just a compass, watch and a sextant. They had to hit a little island of just 450 acres with just 4 miles of coastline. All by dead reckoning. I seriously, seriously doubt you could do it. I know I couldn't. By the way, they only had two more stops if they had made it to Howland. Honolulu and Oakland, CA. Nearly all the way around the world with nothing but a compass, watch, sextant and sometimes an ADF. The leg to Howland was by far the riskiest and most challenging of all. It proved to be too much.

How far have you been around the world?
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Failure to make it, means they meet the description of being failures. Nice attempt, always cool when people go for it. But excelling at doing and excelling at fundraising don't always go together.
 
ClimbnSink said:
Failure to make it, means they meet the description of being failures. Nice attempt, always cool when people go for it. But excelling at doing and excelling at fundraising don't always go together.
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Does not the fact that they tried deserve at least some respect for their effort, even though it ended badly? Myself, I sit in an armchair and criticize Presidents and world class aviators, but I still respect their accomplishment of being able to rise above the obscurity of the rest of us seven or eight billion people.

-John
 
She may not have been the crackerjack (crackerjill?) pilot a lot of people are now (with several generations newer and better aircraft, navaids, radios and all)... but I'm pretty sure if one of us were to disappear tomorrow, in 77 years no one would remember our names, let alone still be looking for us.

That said... TIGHAR seems to be a very well funded hobby for a few people.
 
kyleb said:
They got a lot of attention with a "piece of aluminum skin from Amelia's Plane" that turned out to be a bust.

IMO, they are in the position of having a theory and trying to force fit anything and everything they find so it fits their theory.

They only thing they have reliably done is create PR events and raise money. Everything else has been fluff, IMO.
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It seems to me that they are going about it in a fairly scientific manner. They have a theory and are testing the theory. No one who proceeds in such a method is going to find that every piece of evidence works out. It is still undeniable that they have found evidence to support the theory. It is not conclusive, but neither have they claimed it to be.

Of course if you are raising money, you have to add a little hoopla. That is how it works. But I don't see anything here that suggests that they lack credibility. I don't know about other instances, and don't care to devote a chunk of my remaining life to doing independent research on TIGHAR. I am watching this one as I am interested in the Earhart story.
 
Palmpilot said:
I've heard that there were lots of women pilots who were far better than her. The point about being driven by the PR machine makes a lot of sense. It reminds me of the Jessica Dubroff tragedy, although in that case I think it was the little girl's flight instructor and/or her father who were being influenced by publicity.
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Pancho Barnes, Louise Thaden, Jackie Cochran, to name a few. I don't actually blame Earhart's piloting skills for missing Howland Island. But she had a number of mishaps including nearly wiping out the Electra in Hawaii on her first attempt. I don't think that she was a terrible pilot, and she was certainly gutsy. But she sometimes got in over her head. Whether it was her hubris, or Putnam's pushing, is a matter of debate.

I will say if TIGHAR can prove that she put the plane down on the reef on Gardner Island, then her skill level will go up a notch in my mind.
 
Fearless Tower said:
As another with no particular dog in the fight, I have neither the time nor the motivation to dig up links, but if you go over to the WIX (Warbird Information Exchange) Forum and search for TIGHAR, you will find several threads that will give you an idea of where Kyle is coming from.

In short, TIGHAR's credibility has been in question long before the 'freckel cream' jar was found and it goes far beyond the Earhart case.

They have spent alot of donor money on alot of cases and have very little to show for it.
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I'm sure government beats their record on wasting money.

You haven't described any harm they've done, so they take interested people's money to search, and they're not having much success. So?

Got a more successful place to donate to as alternative, or is all of it just sour grapes?

The real problem is that anyone is even interested.
 
denverpilot said:
I'm sure government beats their record on wasting money.

You haven't described any harm they've done, so they take interested people's money to search, and they're not having much success. So?

Got a more successful place to donate to as alternative, or is all of it just sour grapes?

The real problem is that anyone is even interested.
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Well, you are right about the government.

Like I said, I have no particular dog in the fight, but have observed a lot of hate toward them that has been going on for a very long time. I simply pointed where Kristin can go to find more on what Kyle is talking about.

I do have more successful places to donate to, but they tend to be religious organizations.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Like I said, I have no particular dog in the fight, but have observed a lot of hate toward them that has been going on for a very long time.
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I think there is the general feeling that they make their pitch for more money by holding up tantalizing clues which always seem to fall through.

Fearless Tower said:
I do have more successful places to donate to, but they tend to be religious organizations.
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I'm sure you vet who you give to, but some religious organizations are certainly not exempt from similar tactics.
 
>>I think there is the general feeling that they make their pitch for more money by holding up tantalizing clues<<

And if they didn't present the evidence thus far to build a case for further expeditions, exactly how do you think they, or any similarly situated organization, would go about raising money. How many potential donors do you think tells TIGHAR **NOT** to show them the evidence? I can't imagine anyone not wanting to see the evidence, so why do you damn them for providing it?

>>which always seem to fall through.<<

Do you have any evidence that their evidence ALWAYS seems to fall through, or are you just going to hide behind the wishy-washy "I think that there is a general feeling" bit?

The internet is simultaneously the greatest invention ever for the dissemination of knowledge and the greatest multiply of human stupidity.
 
TIGHAR plays the same funding game Earhart did. Nothing wrong with that.
 
ClimbnSink said:
TIGHAR plays the same funding game Earhart did. Nothing wrong with that.
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ROFL! Nice! And true.

There's always going to be people spending money on silly stuff like hunting for dead aviators who got lost decades ago. It's really no skin off anyone else's nose.
 
Everskyward said:
I think there is the general feeling that they make their pitch for more money by holding up tantalizing clues which always seem to fall through.



I'm sure you vet who you give to, but some religious organizations are certainly not exempt from similar tactics.
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Oh, of course. No organization is immune from corruption or poor management.
 
Kristin said:
Do you have any evidence that their evidence ALWAYS seems to fall through, or are you just going to hide behind the wishy-washy "I think that there is a general feeling" bit?
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Do you have any evidence they've come up with something which has actually been proven to come from the airplane?
 
Kristin said:
Do you have any evidence that their evidence ALWAYS seems to fall through, or are you just going to hide behind the wishy-washy "I think that there is a general feeling" bit?
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It is hard to disprove a negative, but if you know of something concrete Tighar has brought to the table, it would be great if you'd share.

My take is that they have been at this for nearly 30 years with little or nothing to show for it.

Looking at their website, they tried to find L'Oreal Blanc (a noble project, BTW) and didn't. They have been on the search for Amelia for almost 30 years and the best they can come up with are artifacts that could be found on any island that has been inhabited at some point in the last 80 years. They have also thrown their hat in the ring on two recovery projects (a P-38 and a TBD), neither of which appear to have made any progress. Frankly, I don't understand their involvement or what they have done to advance either the TBD or the P-38 project. Both of those projects seem a lot like Tighar is just attaching its name for the PR value.

I wish them well, but they don't seem to be making much progress in the recovery of historic aircraft.
 
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Kristin said:
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They found a picture that was taken of the island at some later point in time that had something sticking out of the water that they thought might be a landing gear strut from the Lockheed.

Everything I have read when they came up with more circumstantial evidence is that that presented it as just that. I do not recall them ever claiming that what they found proves that Amelia was there, rather just that the evidence supported the theory, but was not conclusive. I have been following this story for years. If I missed where they claimed that what they found was final proof, please show me.

I don't have a dog in this either, but I am wondering whether you have some of relationship that makes you feel the need to trash their credibility.
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Hey. Whenever you hear "We discovered an old picture that could show..." you bet it's nonsense. The picture had to be taken by human with, you know, eyes. Don' cha think the photographer would have gotten a closer look if it looked interesting to him?

The argument can't be "can you prove it wrong?" It's always can you, making the claim, prove it right?

Nobody can prove it's wrong that Amelia was taken by alien collectors to be frozen in suspended animation and on put on display in a space museum, only to be discovered more hundreds of years later by the Starship Voyager.
 
kyleb said:
Looking at their website, they tried to find L'Oreal Blanc (a noble project, BTW) and didn't.
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It's actually L'Oiseau Blanc. I do agree with you overall, but will say that I am not at all surprised they were unable to find the airplane in Maine. If you've ever been off path in wooded areas of the state, you'll understand why.
 
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